Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

GR are you saying airlines who offer bargain flights use planes that crash more often than airlines who charge more?

Dirt cheap airfare has to be covered somehow so skipping some of the “luxuries” like plane maintenance and good staff is a good start!

[kurupetos]

Why can't people just say 'I can't afford it' rather then say 'I'ts a rip off'? Nothing wrong in addmiting you can't afford something. I presume you think Ferrari is a big rip off as well.

It is!

Then obviously you cannot afford one.

Not even a Fiat Punto!

[larnacaman]

I've been a frequent flier (as they call it) for almost 30 years with my work. In all that time i've never been able to work out the formula airlines use for the cost of a bum on a seat. It sure doesn't rely on ''supply and demand'', not when there can be 5 vastly different prices for that seat over a 7 day period at times....

What doesn't help is all these additional costs, fees, and taxes that get applied to air tickets these days. On a recent flight to Hong Kong i noticed that those extras came to an additional sum that was just 26 GB Pounds less that the actual flight cost!!!!

I am of a similar mind to those that are talking about the costs to airlines for using the 2 New airports in Cyprus. For they will certainly kill off what is left of tourism in Cyprus and we will be left with nice new airports that are empty and unused by Europe's airline companies. With only CY and there half dozen or so aircraft still operating in them with an odd flight here and there from elsewhere. That's only if CY can keep it's head above water!!!

Anything over around 150/160 GB Pounds inclusive for a round trip ticket to or from UK is too much to pay, based on other destinations of similar distance and advertised costs.
haha!! ....currently i think BA are charging 167 euros one way!!!!

As for the official statements that Cyprus is concentrating on ''the discerning high class'' tourists, .....We haven't got anything here that these type of tourists would expect, in fact we have nothing that would attract them, especially of an evening. All we have then, are the restaurants and bars, .....thousands of them!!!!. Just take a look at what Spain offers, and other European tourist destinations with there purpose made day and evening entertainment arena's, there high profile concerts with current artists /groups/bands, etc, etc..... So that's just a pipe dream until there's some serious investments made here.... We need short and long term planning and more importantly, ...implementation to save our tourist industry!!!

What many tourists do get, is being ripped off as soon as they get out of the airport, starting with the taxi to take them to there hotel or villa. It still amazes me that the local greed i experienced when i first arrived here 16 years ago, isn't getting any better it's getting worse, and that's what tourists remember, and are going to be reluctant to return.....


So yes something does need to be done and bloody SOON!! The first thing is to get those costs down to the airlines at the airports, to bring the airfares down. 115% hike in airport fees .....Now ....that's what you CALL Greed!!!

Andy.....

[Paphitis]

GR are you saying airlines who offer bargain flights use planes that crash more often than airlines who charge more?

Dirt cheap airfare has to be covered somehow so skipping some of the “luxuries” like plane maintenance and good staff is a good start!

That's not correct mate.

There are many cheaper budget airlines around the world such as EasyJet, Virgin, Tiger Airlines, Dragon Air, and Jet Star. All these airlines heavily discount their airfares WITHOUT skipping any scheduled maintenance, fitting bogus parts or cutting corners.

Virgin was formed by Richard Branson, Tiger is owned by Singapore Airlines, Dragon Air is owned by Cathay Pacific, and Jet Star is owned by QANTAS! These airlines do not cheat, and invest heavily in safety. Pilots and Cabin crew are very experienced and meet all regulatory requirements and they are ramp checked and audited frequently. Infact, these companies meet the same standards of their parent and exceed regulatory requirements often.

The company I work for recruited 6 EasyJet Pilots last year and all met our stringent requirements. But it still is hit and miss. We also interviewed an Asiana Airlines B767 Captain who failed the simulator. He turned the wrong way whilst conducting a non visual instrument approach at Cairns at night with Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) deactivated. We crashed into a hillside believe it or not. I know this because I was allocated FO duties for each applicant. I was there operating the radios, gear, flaps and applying correct power settings, whilst they fly. So I was their pretend FO and it was up to them to utilise me and reduce their workload. No other input provided.

Anyway, budget airlines are able to operate and also achieve profit by cutting back on senior and middle management. So in effect, there are less people wearing suits, but there are no short cuts with Operational or Engineering Staff. Passengers also have to pay for food and drink and for excess baggage, and this is where you can get caught out and slugged heavily. Everyone is on performance based contracts. No jobs for life. Incompetence is discarded, and good performance is rewarded.

High cost airlines such as Cyprus Airways are very top heavy with senior staff, and middle management. Many don't have Aviation backgrounds and are incompetent (pilots and engineering excluded). Staff per aircraft is HIGH, and so costs are high. This is why the airline has not made a profit in a very long time. Cyprus Airways could get by with 20-30% less staff. Staff levels at QANTAS for example, are 30% lower, the staff is better quality and more productive.

Similar Airlines to Cyprus Airways are run more efficiently with better management and lower operating costs.

Helios Airlines on the other hand did take short cuts. Bogus parts were fitted! Pilots and engineers were second tier and were usually inexperienced Cypriot pilots or Eastern European Pilots who could not get jobs at more reputable airlines. There is a world of difference between Helios, and other budget airlines such as EasyJet!

So you are very wrong! Budget Airlines do not skip on "luxuries" and maintenance, which are compulsory and heavily regulated, or good staff. On the contrary, it is critical for them to employ high quality staff who are competent and productive. This is the ethos that does not exist at Cyprus Airways and why this airline is almost bankrupt and without any prospects for expansion into new markets. And this is why Cyprus Airways has a bleak future!

Profit margins in the Aviation Sector are traditionally very thin. So an airline which employs unnecessary and incompetent management staff (CyAir and Olympic) are really placing a noose around their neck!

[Kikapu]

GR are you saying airlines who offer bargain flights use planes that crash more often than airlines who charge more?

Dirt cheap airfare has to be covered somehow so skipping some of the “luxuries” like plane maintenance and good staff is a good start!

That's not correct mate.

There are many cheaper budget airlines around the world such as EasyJet, Virgin, Tiger Airlines, Dragon Air, and Jet Star. All these airlines heavily discount their airfares WITHOUT skipping any scheduled maintenance, fitting bogus parts or cutting corners.

Virgin was formed by Richard Branson, Tiger is owned by Singapore Airlines, Dragon Air is owned by Cathay Pacific, and Jet Star is owned by QANTAS! These airlines do not cheat, and invest heavily in safety. Pilots and Cabin crew are very experienced and meet all regulatory requirements and they are ramp checked and audited frequently. Infact, these companies meet the same standards of their parent and exceed regulatory requirements often.

The company I work for recruited 6 EasyJet Pilots last year and all met our stringent requirements. But it still is hit and miss. We also interviewed an Asiana Airlines B767 Captain who failed the simulator. He turned the wrong way whilst conducting a non visual instrument approach at Cairns at night with Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS) deactivated. We crashed into a hillside believe it or not. I know this because I was allocated FO duties for each applicant. I was there operating the radios, gear, flaps and applying correct power settings, whilst they fly. So I was their pretend FO and it was up to them to utilise me and reduce their workload. No other input provided.

Anyway, budget airlines are able to operate and also achieve profit by cutting back on senior and middle management. So in effect, there are less people wearing suits, but there are no short cuts with Operational or Engineering Staff. Passengers also have to pay for food and drink and for excess baggage, and this is where you can get caught out and slugged heavily. Everyone is on performance based contracts. No jobs for life. Incompetence is discarded, and good performance is rewarded.

High cost airlines such as Cyprus Airways are very top heavy with senior staff, and middle management. Many don't have Aviation backgrounds and are incompetent (pilots and engineering excluded). Staff per aircraft is HIGH, and so costs are high. This is why the airline has not made a profit in a very long time. Cyprus Airways could get by with 20-30% less staff. Staff levels at QANTAS for example, are 30% lower, the staff is better quality and more productive.

Similar Airlines to Cyprus Airways are run more efficiently with better management and lower operating costs.

Helios Airlines on the other hand did take short cuts. Bogus parts were fitted! Pilots and engineers were second tier and were usually inexperienced Cypriot pilots or Eastern European Pilots who could not get jobs at more reputable airlines. There is a world of difference between Helios, and other budget airlines such as EasyJet!

So you are very wrong! Budget Airlines do not skip on "luxuries" and maintenance, which are compulsory and heavily regulated, or good staff. On the contrary, it is critical for them to employ high quality staff who are competent and productive. This is the ethos that does not exist at Cyprus Airways and why this airline is almost bankrupt and without any prospects for expansion into new markets. And this is why Cyprus Airways has a bleak future!

Profit margins in the Aviation Sector are traditionally very thin. So an airline which employs unnecessary and incompetent management staff (CyAir and Olympic) are really placing a noose around their neck!

Paphitis,

I agree with everything you have said above. But you left out one very important ingredient as to why budget airlines are often profitable while regular airlines often are not. It has to do with how long the aircraft sits on the ground. As long as the aircraft is sitting on the ground, it is not making anything money, but costing money. The revenues are made when the planes are in the air, which means, budget airlines turn their planes around in 20-30 minutes max. Southwest airlines in the US has been profitable year after year for the last 30+ years, until very recently, the recession hit everyone, but they are still doing OK, because they turn their planes around usually in 20 minutes. Land, unload, re-load, take off. That is their formula, as well as flying same type of aircraft, all Boeing 737's with various models, which cuts on keeping too many spare part on hand. Smaller planes also means less crew. Short flight means no food service. No seat reservation means less front desk personnel. The more legs each aircraft flies, the higher the volume in passengers at the end of the day. Cheaper tickets are money losing proposition for regular airlines, but for budget airlines, they make the difference on volume with more take-offs and landings per aircraft. Easy-Jet has similar formula as Southwest to their success as well as Ryan-Air.

[rigsby]

It,s also what sort of service you want or expect on a recent trip from Dublin to Stansted with Ryanair the fare was £20 each way for this you got a seat and two eastern european cabin crew one looked like a Bulldog chewing a wasp and the other like she was sucking a lemon service was practically nil but you pays your money and makes your choice

[larnacaman]

Never seen a passenger plane of any decent size turned round in 20 minutes....anywhere!!! And if you think about it, ....you can understand WHY!!!....

[Z4]

Tell me, what are the flights like from Cyprus to neighbouring countries (say an hours flight)?? i.e. Greece/Israel/Italy/Bulgaria etc???

[larnacaman]

Never less than 45 minutes, ....Generally takes 20 mins to unload and load the passengers, then there's the quick cleaning and general seviceing of the cabin area, unloading baggage and loading of baggage, refeuling etc,etc ....

All that's not going to get done in 20 minutes, that's for sure !!!!

[rigsby]

I think Ryanair aim to turn a 737 around in 30mins the cabin crew collect all the rubbish ect just before the plane lands and by not pre allocating seats they think they can load a plane quicker