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Greek austerity measures in vein... default almost certain.

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Postby Gasman » Sun May 09, 2010 4:38 pm

Well, I am left wondering then just what all the fuss, rioting, austerity measures, record numbers of Greeks applying to emigrate to US and the Antipodes, the EU and IMF loans are all about? If Greece is doing all right thank you very much? (Interesting to note that one of the bigger imports to Greece is luxury boats).

I do also wonder just what the rioters want? If, as is reported widely, most of the activists do not have jobs - well they ain't gonna suffer any paycuts or increased taxation are they?

If, as is widely reported, the leaders of these anarchist factions are not poor or dispossessed, but the offspring of some of the wealthier families in Greece?

A couple of years ago when they were rioting, they were waving banners calling for schools not bombs.

I read today on a Greek blog that what the populace want is for 'heads to roll'. They want retribution and for those who had the money and spent it all to be punished.

Perhaps that's what the Greek Government should do.

It also emerged that fewer than 15,000 Greeks declare incomes of over €100,000, despite tens of thousands living in opulent wealth on the outskirts of the capital. A new drive by the Socialists to track down swimming pool owners by deploying Google Earth was met with a virulent response as Greeks invested in fake grass, camouflage and asphalt to hide the tax liabilities from the spies in space.


It's beginning to sound more like 'civil war' than unrest on account of measures being imposed from outside Greece.
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Postby Paphitis » Sun May 09, 2010 4:47 pm

Gasman wrote:Well, I am left wondering then just what all the fuss, rioting, austerity measures, record numbers of Greeks applying to emigrate to US and the Antipodes, the EU and IMF loans are all about? If Greece is doing all right thank you very much? (Interesting to note that one of the bigger imports to Greece is luxury boats).

I do also wonder just what the rioters want? If, as is reported widely, most of the activists do not have jobs - well they ain't gonna suffer any paycuts or increased taxation are they?

If, as is widely reported, the leaders of these anarchist factions are not poor or dispossessed, but the offspring of some of the wealthier families in Greece?

A couple of years ago when they were rioting, they were waving banners calling for schools not bombs.

I read today on a Greek blog that what the populace want is for 'heads to roll'. They want retribution and for those who had the money and spent it all to be punished.

Perhaps that's what the Greek Government should do.

It also emerged that fewer than 15,000 Greeks declare incomes of over €100,000, despite tens of thousands living in opulent wealth on the outskirts of the capital. A new drive by the Socialists to track down swimming pool owners by deploying Google Earth was met with a virulent response as Greeks invested in fake grass, camouflage and asphalt to hide the tax liabilities from the spies in space.


It's beginning to sound more like 'civil war' than unrest on account of measures being imposed from outside Greece.


Actually, there is near zero migration to Australia. In fact there is reverse migration from Australia to Greece. I forget the figure, but there is a vibrant Aussie community in Greece these days!
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Postby georgios100 » Sun May 09, 2010 5:45 pm

Nikitas wrote:"It is said, out of 2 Greeks, one pays no tax and the other pays half of what he should."

Said by who? You having lived here must know that a host of actions not directly connected to taxation, ie getting a drivers license mandate registering with the tax authorities and getting your AFM or tax number, in short all citizens are under tax scrutiny.

You must also know about TEKMIRIA or presumed income which impose arbitrary taxation even if your business is OBVIOUSLY making a loss.

Take my friend Lefteris who owned a shoe store in central Athens. In 2003 he had a good year, and he bought a Saab car, a two litre model which put him in the high tax bracket. After trhee bad years he closed the business. As a self employed person he could not claim the six months unemployment benefit, while he still had to make payments to TEBE, the self employed insurance fund. He was also taxed heavily because he still owned that two litre Saab, which stuck him with a very high presumed income. You own a car you pays income tax. Same goes for real property, and Greece ranks numer one or two in the EU for property ownership.

This "Greeks do not pay tax" mantra is an excuse or an outright myth.

The problem, and you must have experience of this, is that the system, being Ottoman in origin, means we all have to have PERSONAL contact with the tax people. And that is so because it is so complicated. If they were to simplify and remove personal contact between taxpayers and tax collecting civil servants (servants, what a joke, more like petty tyrants!) things would be much better and we would pay less tax.

Russia simplified it tax system a few years back, making all incomes liable to a flat 13 per cent ax rate and it stopped abuses, from both sides, overnight and incrased its tax receipts. But that was simple, and Greeks hae simplicity.


The Greek taxation system needs a total overhaul as it was/is proven an "open wound". The violations are just too many to mention. The TEKMIRIA are there, yes. Are they enforced to the full extend of the law and to ALL citizens (no exceptions)? The answer is No.

"It is said, out of 2 Greeks, one pays no tax and the other pays half of what he should."

I heard this from various guests of Ant1 satellite and Mega cosmos. This is not an official statement of government reps but comments made by various "tax experts" in Greece. I consider this statement as partially true. Others believe it is indeed a reality in Greece...

I agree with you about the "Ottoman" origin... hence the much needed overhaul of the system.
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Postby Gasman » Sun May 09, 2010 7:19 pm

Paphitis, I wasn't talking about the numbers who have emigrated. I read that applications to emigrate to those countries are up 30% since the shit hit the fan.

And that lots are already moving their money (some of it to Cyprus) and that they are falling over each other to buy expensive houses for cash in London's most expensive areas - Mayfair and Park Lane.

Not much different to them paying to hide their swimming pools I suppose. But not very patriotic. It will require the will of the people to want change - all of them, not just the poorest or the anarchists.
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Postby Paphitis » Sun May 09, 2010 7:29 pm

Gasman wrote:Paphitis, I wasn't talking about the numbers who have emigrated. I read that applications to emigrate to those countries are up 30% since the shit hit the fan.

And that lots are already moving their money (some of it to Cyprus) and that they are falling over each other to buy expensive houses for cash in London's most expensive areas - Mayfair and Park Lane.

Not much different to them paying to hide their swimming pools I suppose. But not very patriotic. It will require the will of the people to want change - all of them, not just the poorest or the anarchists.


And 30% of fuck all is still pretty much fuck all! :lol:

Not everything mentioned in the media is accurate! You should know better!
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Postby Gasman » Sun May 09, 2010 7:32 pm

Oh I know I am only supposed to believe anything Oracle tells us lol!

I suppose this is all bollox too then:

Wealthy Greeks and companies have been clamouring to move their cash deposits to banks such as HSBC or France's Société Générale, which operate large branches in the country. They are among those to have received several billion euros of new money in recent weeks.

HSBC's private banking in the country is understood to have been flooded with business, while the local operations of several other major international banks have already seen large inflows of money. A spokesman for HSBC declined to comment.


Dear me - Malapapas won't be pleased - Greeks supporting the HSBC.
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Postby Paphitis » Sun May 09, 2010 7:35 pm

Gasman wrote:Oh I know I am only supposed to believe anything Oracle tells us lol!

I suppose this is all bollox too then:

Wealthy Greeks and companies have been clamouring to move their cash deposits to banks such as HSBC or France's Société Générale, which operate large branches in the country. They are among those to have received several billion euros of new money in recent weeks.

HSBC's private banking in the country is understood to have been flooded with business, while the local operations of several other major international banks have already seen large inflows of money. A spokesman for HSBC declined to comment.


Dear me - Malapapas won't be pleased - Greeks supporting the HSBC.


Greeks move money all over the place.

I for instance have moved money out of Australia and into Cyprus and Greece in the past. So what?

You need to prove your sweeping statement that this has something to do with tax evasion and not investing in other countries because the ASE Index has crashed from 2,600 points to 1630 points! :lol:
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Postby Paphitis » Sun May 09, 2010 7:43 pm

Oh dear me! That got you didn't it?

The ASE Index has collapsed which means that many Greeks have sold their shares on a massive scale. So Greeks are now cashing up.

Only natural in times of crisis. And this money needs to go somewhere doesn't it. Some of it has ended up in the UK and Cyprus.
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Postby Gasman » Sun May 09, 2010 7:49 pm

I don't need to prove anything. I am raising points that I am reading in articles relating to the CURRENT crisis in Greece.

But I will leave you to it now. You seem convinced that there is no crisis, (not sure how you explain the rioting away - but then I suppose it is true that they are ALWAYS rioting in Greece) so that's nothing unusual either.

You seem to be saying that they have NO problems. Perhaps you should contact their PM and tell him to hold off on the EU and IMF loans (and not to believe everything he reads) as he is probably over- reacting to stuff he is reading too.

I suppose the estimated 2bn worth of damage they did during the last round of big riots is just an exaggeration too? And that the three recent deaths are wildly exaggerated?

I would be interested to read what YOU think is going on in Greece - if they have no people trying to avoid tax, no fat cat govt crooks, no dissidents, no one trying to get out while the going is good. Wonderful education system (they've rioted about that too) no unemployment (obviously all lies about the high unemployment there). Excellent balance of trade.

What on earth have they got to riot about?
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Postby Gasman » Sun May 09, 2010 7:53 pm

Oh dear me! That got you didn't it?


No. It didn't 'get me' - it obviously got the financial journalists who wrote the article. I was just pasting from it.

It has, apparently, 'got' hundreds more of them too. Look for yourself.

Is this just the usual silly 'never make any negative points about Greece' stuff? Because it is getting a bit surreal!

You counter ANY bad news from there and pooh pooh it as if it is perfectly normal 'business as usual'.

So, why ARE they going cap in hand to the EU and the IMF? Is it all lies about their tax evasion? If so, their own prime minister is lying. Those figures are coming out of Greece, about how few of them declare any healthy income.

Is it all lies about their 14 or more paydays a year?
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