Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

"as the major € defaulters"

When and where have you seen that those countries have defaulted on their debts?

[Paphitis]

No country in the EU has defaulted on any loans as yet.

[Svetlana]

"as the major € defaulters"

When and where have you seen that those countries have defaulted on their debts?

OK, <Pedant mode on> German banks have an estimated $45 billion in exposure to Greek debt (France is even higher, holding $75 billion in Greek loans).

The Greek government has requested activation of a €45 billion emergency loan facility from eurozone governments and the International Monetary Fund in a last-ditch attempt to save the country from default.
Athens hopes that funds from a 110-billion-euro bailout loan from its 15 eurozone partners and the International Monetary Fund will start flowing before its next maturing debt payment on May 19.

So, no Greece has not defaulted but will, on 19 May, unless it gets another loan to service its existing loans!

[Nikitas]

Cynicism does not become you Lana.

Default means to fail to make a payment due on the day it is due. Basic bankruptcy rule we tend to forget.

The whole point of the hoopla of the last few days was to secure Greece's ability to make the May 19th payment. That has been settled, ergo Greece will not default on this payment.

ALL, literally ALL, western nations, including the big boys- USA, Germany, UK, France, are in debt too. If there is a sudden mass sale of their bonds they too will be in shit street unable to save their asses. Only two nations are debt free, one is Russia, the other China. Everybody else owes money, that is how governments work, by creating debt.

is all this pedantic enough for you?

[Gasman]

It is interesting to see the table of leading Greek exports to the USA, UK, and Germany, they are oil drilling machinery, petrochemicals and chemicals and pharmaceuticals correspondingly. Yet the net and the blogs are clamouring about lazy sheep herders and tax evading feta cheese producers. The combined effect of such bullshit reporting is obvious.

That's not very meaningful without figures or trends. And it does only mention exports to the US (they do export elsewhere, Italy in particular)

With a population of 10.7 million Greeks who enjoyed an average GDP of $32,000 per person last year, Greece was also the 38th wealthiest nation in terms of GDP per capita.

In 66th place among other exporting nations, Greece shipped $29.1 billion worth of exports in 2008. Principal Greek exports were food and beverages, manufactured goods, petroleum products, chemicals and textiles. Based on 2008 statistics, Greece’s largest export clients were Italy (11.5%), Germany (10.5%), Bulgaria (7%), Cyprus (6.2%), the United States (5%), the United Kingdom (4.7%) and Romania (4.4%).

According to the CIA World Factbook, Greece imported $93.9 billion worth of foreign goods last year. Major commodities imported into Greece include machinery, transport equipment, fuels and chemicals. Leading suppliers to Greece were Germany (13.3%), Italy (12.8%), China (6.2%), France (5.6%), Netherlands (5.1%) and Russia (4.7%).

Greece’s Top Exports to America

The top 10 Greek exports shipped to the U.S. in 2008 were for relatively modest amounts but still generated 67.7% of total shipments to America from Greece. Nine product categories were for less than $100 million, while 7 export classifications showed decreases ranging from negative 0.2% to minus 43.1% from 2007.

1. Oilfield and drilling equipment … US$227.4 million, down 14.9% from 2007 (22.8% of US imports from Greece)
2. Other petroleum products … $98.8 million, down 12.6% (9.9%)
3. Vegetables and preparations … $96.6 million, down 0.2% (9.7%)
4. Writing and art supplies … $58.1 million, down 25.8% (5.8%)
5. Aluminum … $41.9 million, down 24.5% (4.2%)
6. Dairy products and eggs … $35.4 million, down 31.1% (3.5%) 55.9
7. Stone, sand, cement and lime … $34.8 million, down 43.1% (3.5%)
8. Other tobacco, waxes and non-food oils … $32.2 million, up 3.7% (3.2%)
9. Telecommunications equipment … $23.6 million, up 63.7% (2.4%)
10. Toiletries and cosmetics … $22.4 million, up 86.5% (2.2%).

Fastest-Growing Greek Exports to the U.S.

A relatively small export category, wool or silk cloth and thread experienced an impressive sales gain of 5,117% in 2008. The 9 other products realized modest double-digit increases ranging from 20% to 86.5%.

1. Wool or silk cloth and thread … US$6.9 million, up 5,117% from 2007
2. Toiletries and cosmetics … $22.4 million, up 86.5%
3. Numismatic collectible coins … $5.7 million, up 86%
4. Machine tools … $2 million, up 70.8%
5. Telecommunications equipment … $23.6 million, up 63.7%
6. Sulfur and non-metallic minerals … $18.1 million, up 60.1%
7. Industrial organic chemicals … $2.8 million, up 46.7%
8. Fish and shellfish … $12.8 million, up 29.6%
9. Military aircraft and parts … $20.5 million, up 22.2%
10. Other vehicle parts and accessories … $11.5 million, up 20%.

Greece’s Top Imports from America

America’s top 10 exports to Greece represent a wide range of products. In total, the top 10 product categories below account for 55.5% of total Greek imports from the U.S.

1. Fuel oil … US$227.6 million, up 10,139% from 2007 (11.8% of US exports to Greece)
2. Civilian aircraft … $192.3 million, up 151.3% (10%)
3. Parts for military-type goods … $141.1 million, down 5.2% (7.3%)
4. Steelmaking materials … $116.5 million, up 22.1% (6%)
5. Medicinal equipment … $95.7 million, up 6.2% (5%)
6. Pleasure boats and motors … $70.1 million, up 39.3% (3.6%)
7. Industrial engines … $61 million, up 559.1% (3.2%)
8. Passenger cars … $60.9 million, down 36.9% (3.2%)
9. Other petroleum products … $51.9 million, up 87.7% (2.7%)
10. Nuts … $51.7 million, down 16.6% (2.7%).

Fastest-Growing Greek Imports from the U.S.

Not only was fuel oil the number one U.S. export to Greece last year, American fuel oil shipments of fuel oil to Hellas (informal nickname for Greece) was up by an amount 100 times greater than in 2007.

1. Fuel oil … US$227.6 million, up 10,139% from 2007
2. Other coal and fuels… $4.8 million, up 8,253%
3. Industrial engines … $61 million, up 559.1%
4. Generators and accessories … $29.9 million, up 452%
5. Soybeans … $16.8 million, up 268.1%
6. Military aircraft engines and turbines … $5 million, up 161.9%
7. Civilian aircraft … $192.3 million, up 151.3%
8. Leather and furs … $26 million, up 138.5%
9. Semiconductors … $25.5 million, up 114%
10. Copper … $44.4 million, up 105.8%.

(Sources: This analysis is based on latest statistics from the US Census Bureau- Foreign Trade Statistics and CIA World Factbook as of the date of article publication.)

[Paphitis]

It is interesting to see the table of leading Greek exports to the USA, UK, and Germany, they are oil drilling machinery, petrochemicals and chemicals and pharmaceuticals correspondingly. Yet the net and the blogs are clamouring about lazy sheep herders and tax evading feta cheese producers. The combined effect of such bullshit reporting is obvious.

That's not very meaningful without figures or trends. And it does only mention exports to the US (they do export elsewhere, Italy in particular)

With a population of 10.7 million Greeks who enjoyed an average GDP of $32,000 per person last year, Greece was also the 38th wealthiest nation in terms of GDP per capita.

In 66th place among other exporting nations, Greece shipped $29.1 billion worth of exports in 2008. Principal Greek exports were food and beverages, manufactured goods, petroleum products, chemicals and textiles. Based on 2008 statistics, Greece’s largest export clients were Italy (11.5%), Germany (10.5%), Bulgaria (7%), Cyprus (6.2%), the United States (5%), the United Kingdom (4.7%) and Romania (4.4%).

According to the CIA World Factbook, Greece imported $93.9 billion worth of foreign goods last year. Major commodities imported into Greece include machinery, transport equipment, fuels and chemicals. Leading suppliers to Greece were Germany (13.3%), Italy (12.8%), China (6.2%), France (5.6%), Netherlands (5.1%) and Russia (4.7%).

Greece’s Top Exports to America

The top 10 Greek exports shipped to the U.S. in 2008 were for relatively modest amounts but still generated 67.7% of total shipments to America from Greece. Nine product categories were for less than $100 million, while 7 export classifications showed decreases ranging from negative 0.2% to minus 43.1% from 2007.

1. Oilfield and drilling equipment … US$227.4 million, down 14.9% from 2007 (22.8% of US imports from Greece)
2. Other petroleum products … $98.8 million, down 12.6% (9.9%)
3. Vegetables and preparations … $96.6 million, down 0.2% (9.7%)
4. Writing and art supplies … $58.1 million, down 25.8% (5.8%)
5. Aluminum … $41.9 million, down 24.5% (4.2%)
6. Dairy products and eggs … $35.4 million, down 31.1% (3.5%) 55.9
7. Stone, sand, cement and lime … $34.8 million, down 43.1% (3.5%)
8. Other tobacco, waxes and non-food oils … $32.2 million, up 3.7% (3.2%)
9. Telecommunications equipment … $23.6 million, up 63.7% (2.4%)
10. Toiletries and cosmetics … $22.4 million, up 86.5% (2.2%).

Fastest-Growing Greek Exports to the U.S.

A relatively small export category, wool or silk cloth and thread experienced an impressive sales gain of 5,117% in 2008. The 9 other products realized modest double-digit increases ranging from 20% to 86.5%.

1. Wool or silk cloth and thread … US$6.9 million, up 5,117% from 2007
2. Toiletries and cosmetics … $22.4 million, up 86.5%
3. Numismatic collectible coins … $5.7 million, up 86%
4. Machine tools … $2 million, up 70.8%
5. Telecommunications equipment … $23.6 million, up 63.7%
6. Sulfur and non-metallic minerals … $18.1 million, up 60.1%
7. Industrial organic chemicals … $2.8 million, up 46.7%
8. Fish and shellfish … $12.8 million, up 29.6%
9. Military aircraft and parts … $20.5 million, up 22.2%
10. Other vehicle parts and accessories … $11.5 million, up 20%.

Greece’s Top Imports from America

America’s top 10 exports to Greece represent a wide range of products. In total, the top 10 product categories below account for 55.5% of total Greek imports from the U.S.

1. Fuel oil … US$227.6 million, up 10,139% from 2007 (11.8% of US exports to Greece)
2. Civilian aircraft … $192.3 million, up 151.3% (10%)
3. Parts for military-type goods … $141.1 million, down 5.2% (7.3%)
4. Steelmaking materials … $116.5 million, up 22.1% (6%)
5. Medicinal equipment … $95.7 million, up 6.2% (5%)
6. Pleasure boats and motors … $70.1 million, up 39.3% (3.6%)
7. Industrial engines … $61 million, up 559.1% (3.2%)
8. Passenger cars … $60.9 million, down 36.9% (3.2%)
9. Other petroleum products … $51.9 million, up 87.7% (2.7%)
10. Nuts … $51.7 million, down 16.6% (2.7%).

Fastest-Growing Greek Imports from the U.S.

Not only was fuel oil the number one U.S. export to Greece last year, American fuel oil shipments of fuel oil to Hellas (informal nickname for Greece) was up by an amount 100 times greater than in 2007.

1. Fuel oil … US$227.6 million, up 10,139% from 2007
2. Other coal and fuels… $4.8 million, up 8,253%
3. Industrial engines … $61 million, up 559.1%
4. Generators and accessories … $29.9 million, up 452%
5. Soybeans … $16.8 million, up 268.1%
6. Military aircraft engines and turbines … $5 million, up 161.9%
7. Civilian aircraft … $192.3 million, up 151.3%
8. Leather and furs … $26 million, up 138.5%
9. Semiconductors … $25.5 million, up 114%
10. Copper … $44.4 million, up 105.8%.

(Sources: This analysis is based on latest statistics from the US Census Bureau- Foreign Trade Statistics and CIA World Factbook as of the date of article publication.)

This is all irrelevant to Greece's national debt, because most items imported into Greece are done so by private enterprise.

[Gasman]

I agree but, it was in response to a post about Greece's marvellous export record.

They have a negative trade balance, or a trade deficit, whichever you want to call it. And that does not help them. And it the past it has been noted as worse than it is now, and a serious problem.

[georgios100]

[quote="Nikitas"]"The Greek taxation system is a joke. Was never enforced to the letter. Tax evasion was/is rampant. It is said, out of 2 Greeks, one pays no tax and the other pays half of what he should."

This is a categorical statement, and does not reflect my experience as one who is self employed in Greece for 35 years. What you do not realise is that our annual tax return is burdened with a 55 per cent surcharge as prepayment for the following year. Regardless of whether in the following year we make a loss and not a profit.

Additionally, every five years we undergo a tax "concordance" (synafia) levy. An arbitrary formula is applied to your tax returns and you are given a choice: pay a lump sum or undergo a full audit. This occurs rgadless of whether your tax returns were honest or not.

Hey Nikitas,

I lived & worked in Athens for 8 years. I too, was there. Despite my honest income tax return every year (and yours), we cannot speak for others being as honest. This phrase was on the media, I heard it, not too long ago, here goes again:

It is said, out of 2 Greeks, one pays no tax and the other pays half of what he should.

Surely, there is some truth in this statement. Tax evasion does exist in Greece, no one denies that. The size of it is in question, not it's existence.
Tax is the only income to the state treasurer. Less tax collected means debt.

[Nikitas]

There was no reference to any marvelous or otherwise record. The point was to illustrate that the image portrayed by the media of a nation that exports feta cheese is obviously false, something that your posted figures also illustrate. The Greek economy is not primarily an agricultural economy, that was the point and not much else.

In the current world situations are any nations posting record improvements in any indices? From what I see it seems that most all are tumbling one way or another, which is why we call it a slump.

[Nikitas]

"It is said, out of 2 Greeks, one pays no tax and the other pays half of what he should."

Said by who? You having lived here must know that a host of actions not directly connected to taxation, ie getting a drivers license mandate registering with the tax authorities and getting your AFM or tax number, in short all citizens are under tax scrutiny.

You must also know about TEKMIRIA or presumed income which impose arbitrary taxation even if your business is OBVIOUSLY making a loss.

Take my friend Lefteris who owned a shoe store in central Athens. In 2003 he had a good year, and he bought a Saab car, a two litre model which put him in the high tax bracket. After trhee bad years he closed the business. As a self employed person he could not claim the six months unemployment benefit, while he still had to make payments to TEBE, the self employed insurance fund. He was also taxed heavily because he still owned that two litre Saab, which stuck him with a very high presumed income. You own a car you pays income tax. Same goes for real property, and Greece ranks numer one or two in the EU for property ownership.

This "Greeks do not pay tax" mantra is an excuse or an outright myth.

The problem, and you must have experience of this, is that the system, being Ottoman in origin, means we all have to have PERSONAL contact with the tax people. And that is so because it is so complicated. If they were to simplify and remove personal contact between taxpayers and tax collecting civil servants (servants, what a joke, more like petty tyrants!) things would be much better and we would pay less tax.

Russia simplified it tax system a few years back, making all incomes liable to a flat 13 per cent ax rate and it stopped abuses, from both sides, overnight and incrased its tax receipts. But that was simple, and Greeks hae simplicity.