Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

I fully understand the preoccupation of the TCs with security. As a victim of the Nicosia riots of 1958 I know what it is like to find yourself attacked in your own house.

This is the first step to empathizing with their desire for a BBF and the veiled partition that this form of solution represents. Up to that point everything is understandable, but the interpretation put on BBF as a form of total communal separation and property exchange is what baffles me. BBF objectively means that a totally TC armed police force will control law and order in the north, the separation of political rights means that the TCs will always rule in the north, so why is it necessary to EXCLUDE GCs from the north?

This insistence on exclusion of GCs, even as non voting residents of the north, not only goes against any reasonable interpretation of BBF, it also harks back to those days of 1958 when the TMT would not allow any GC into TC areas, not even garbage collectors. And that is how the enclaves were run in the 60s too, with full EXCLUSION of GCs. This is what is disturbing and the total denial of the racist aspect of such a policy is disheartening. If it was understandable in the 60s it is inexcusable under a BBF system. Which in turn leads to questions of what ulterior motives lie behind insistence on exclusion, especially when even "moderates" like Talat insist on it.

Excellent insight, Nikitas.

This is just the culmination of a half century of partition plans ...

"When the armed struggle started, the British had at their disposal thousands of men and could even increase their existing numbers to put down the EOKA struggle. This they did not do, but they formed instead the well known Auxiliary
Corps. The ordinary Turkish Cypriots, who did not realize where the British were leading them (since their leadership did not warn them, rather it encouraged them), hastened to reinforce this Auxiliary Corps thinking only of securing
a living. Thus, the Greek Cypriots, who thought that they were waging a holy struggle against the British, found themselves facing the Turkish Cypriots. In this way
the British started submitting to the Turkish community their plans for partition."

Ibrahim Aziz, "The Historical Course of the Turkish Cypriot Community", 1981

Keep reading Ibrahim Aziz,Oracle...You are on the right track...But make sure you take in everything,not just the bits which serve your purpose!

[BirKibrisli]

Speaking personally I could live with the restriction of political rights (right to vote and seek elective office) being restricted to one's ethnic region. This would be unerstandable in view of the mutual suspicion that has built up over the years. But the expansion of that exclusion principle to include settlement and property was one form of exclusion which sucked.

Of course there were also the implied exclusions which would have been inevitable if the primary ones were to work. For instance, checking the shareholding of any EU investement company to ensure that it did not and would not have any GC shareholders when it invested in land.

If I go and live in the GC State after a solution,I'd want to have all political rights that my GC neighbours have,Nikitas..And the same should go for any GC who would live in the North...I know the GCs are not afraid of being swamped by the TCs (or are they?),but the TCs have that fear,so some form of restriction would unfortunately apply...But it doesnt have to be all or nothing...Perhaps a limit on the number of MPs of GC background might be enough...But in practice the whole thing will be a bit of a farce anyway...What if the GCs in the North elect someone like Kikapu or dare I say myself??? Would I count as a GC or a TC MP???
You could get around that by giving the GC community a total number of seats,I guess...I personally believe that Cypriots have had enough of this GC TC business,but I am in the minority,.once again... Story of my life...

[wyoming cowboy]

Its a little insane if you ask me to restrict an ethnic group from owning or participating in business in a certain part of the country. We are living in the 21st century, these ideals were put into the heads of the Tc 50 years ago and they still cling on to them..Nevertheless, a sort of affirmative action could be implemented within a period of 5-10 years for some restrictions, but the one that always hit a nerve for me personally that was in the Annan Plan is the elimination of Habeus Corpus, or the right to appeal a verdict to a court higher then the Tc Supreme Court.... for Gc in the Turk constituent state...

[Paphitis]

Speaking personally I could live with the restriction of political rights (right to vote and seek elective office) being restricted to one's ethnic region. This would be unerstandable in view of the mutual suspicion that has built up over the years. But the expansion of that exclusion principle to include settlement and property was one form of exclusion which sucked.

Of course there were also the implied exclusions which would have been inevitable if the primary ones were to work. For instance, checking the shareholding of any EU investement company to ensure that it did not and would not have any GC shareholders when it invested in land.

If I go and live in the GC State after a solution,I'd want to have all political rights that my GC neighbours have,Nikitas..And the same should go for any GC who would live in the North...I know the GCs are not afraid of being swamped by the TCs (or are they?),but the TCs have that fear,so some form of restriction would unfortunately apply...But it doesnt have to be all or nothing...Perhaps a limit on the number of MPs of GC background might be enough...But in practice the whole thing will be a bit of a farce anyway...What if the GCs in the North elect someone like Kikapu or dare I say myself??? Would I count as a GC or a TC MP???
You could get around that by giving the GC community a total number of seats,I guess...I personally believe that Cypriots have had enough of this GC TC business,but I am in the minority,.once again... Story of my life...

It all comes down to one thing! Land!

You can have anything you want as long as the distribution of land is fair.

For example, the TCs could agree to either a True BBF, an Annan style Confederacy or even opt for permanent agreed partition.

If the TCs would agree to accept an 80:20 ratio, anything is possible.

As long as the TC leadership don't understand this reality, then we will be stuck with Status Quo.

[Nikitas]

"Its a little insane if you ask me to restrict an ethnic group from owning or participating in business in a certain part of the country."

Precisely Wyoming, that is why all citizens should enjoy the rights of movement, establishment, property, but having in mind the security concerns of both sides the political rights are restricted.

While Bir is right, that a full democracy carries full rights, we have the fears of the past to contend with. So for a while each side must have the illusion that it controls its "own" territory.

My personal take on this is that the dividing line will become something of a theorem if and when the problem is settled. In such a small place as Cyprus people move about inorder to do business and survive. The practicalities of every day life will bring up adaptations and ways of doing things that have not been envisioned by anyone.

Oddly enough a similar attachment of votes to localities exists in Greece where for various reasons people have their voting rights registered in their birthplace and not in their place of residence. At elections the population moves around as if it were peak holiday time.

[Nikitas]

Paphitis, I have often stressed the view that territory is paramount. But I am totally baffled to see it always left last in any talks.

[wyoming cowboy]

"Its a little insane if you ask me to restrict an ethnic group from owning or participating in business in a certain part of the country."

Precisely Wyoming, that is why all citizens should enjoy the rights of movement, establishment, property, but having in mind the security concerns of both sides the political rights are restricted.

While Bir is right, that a full democracy carries full rights, we have the fears of the past to contend with. So for a while each side must have the illusion that it controls its "own" territory.

My personal take on this is that the dividing line will become something of a theorem if and when the problem is settled. In such a small place as Cyprus people move about inorder to do business and survive. The practicalities of every day life will bring up adaptations and ways of doing things that have not been envisioned by anyone.

Oddly enough a similar attachment of votes to localities exists in Greece where for various reasons people have their voting rights registered in their birthplace and not in their place of residence. At elections the population moves around as if it were peak holiday time.

Thats why i keep repeating anything less then a true Federal Republic wont be worth the paper its written on. The peculiarities of the Tc demands of restrictions on GC and property ownership, tells me they want to keep their options open even after they sign....

[Viewpoint]

Its a little insane if you ask me to restrict an ethnic group from owning or participating in business in a certain part of the country. We are living in the 21st century, these ideals were put into the heads of the Tc 50 years ago and they still cling on to them..Nevertheless, a sort of affirmative action could be implemented within a period of 5-10 years for some restrictions, but the one that always hit a nerve for me personally that was in the Annan Plan is the elimination of Habeus Corpus, or the right to appeal a verdict to a court higher then the Tc Supreme Court.... for Gc in the Turk constituent state...

why did the gcs practice this during the 1960 against the tcs?

[wyoming cowboy]

Because we the GC were stupid

[Viewpoint]

Because we the GC were stupid

And now you are better you really expect us to believe that? This forum is a clear indication that you have not the packaging maybe different but the content is still very much tbe same.