Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

Our dear friend poor samarkeolog turns up - unexpectedly.

It was a surprise!

At least it wasn't in anything written by Kufi Seydali or Ata Atun...

Goodness gracious me. Which wind was it that blew you in our direction. Is your 'work' still going on or is it finished?

[samarkeolog]

Our dear friend poor samarkeolog turns up - unexpectedly.

It was a surprise!

At least it wasn't in anything written by Kufi Seydali or Ata Atun...

Goodness gracious me. Which wind was it that blew you in our direction. Is your 'work' still going on or is it finished?

At the moment, I'm in Greece, on a language course. But I still have to finish writing up my research, and should finish this autumn.

But during the Easter Holiday of the language course, I went to a conference and gave a talk about a bit of my research. Kufi Seydali misrepresented it, and Ata Atun published Seydali's misrepresentations (in lots of places, from Kibris and Kibris Postasi, to my local one in London, Avrupa).

[DT.]

Our dear friend poor samarkeolog turns up - unexpectedly.

It was a surprise!

At least it wasn't in anything written by Kufi Seydali or Ata Atun...

Goodness gracious me. Which wind was it that blew you in our direction. Is your 'work' still going on or is it finished?

.
At the moment, I'm in Greece, on a language course. But I still have to finish writing up my research, and should finish this autumn.

But during the Easter Holiday of the language course, I went to a conference and gave a talk about a bit of my research. Kufi Seydali misrepresented it, and Ata Atun published Seydali's misrepresentations (in lots of places, from Kibris and Kibris Postasi, to my local one in London, Avrupa).

hey Sam, sorry didn't respond to your email yet, i'll get round to that tomorrow.

Bir, thanks.

[samarkeolog]

Our dear friend poor samarkeolog turns up - unexpectedly.

It was a surprise!

At least it wasn't in anything written by Kufi Seydali or Ata Atun...

Goodness gracious me. Which wind was it that blew you in our direction. Is your 'work' still going on or is it finished?

.
At the moment, I'm in Greece, on a language course. But I still have to finish writing up my research, and should finish this autumn.

But during the Easter Holiday of the language course, I went to a conference and gave a talk about a bit of my research. Kufi Seydali misrepresented it, and Ata Atun published Seydali's misrepresentations (in lots of places, from Kibris and Kibris Postasi, to my local one in London, Avrupa).

hey Sam, sorry didn't respond to your email yet, i'll get round to that tomorrow.

No worries. Everything's in limbo at the moment, so there's no rush.

[Nikitas]

I fully understand the preoccupation of the TCs with security. As a victim of the Nicosia riots of 1958 I know what it is like to find yourself attacked in your own house.

This is the first step to empathizing with their desire for a BBF and the veiled partition that this form of solution represents. Up to that point everything is understandable, but the interpretation put on BBF as a form of total communal separation and property exchange is what baffles me. BBF objectively means that a totally TC armed police force will control law and order in the north, the separation of political rights means that the TCs will always rule in the north, so why is it necessary to EXCLUDE GCs from the north?

This insistence on exclusion of GCs, even as non voting residents of the north, not only goes against any reasonable interpretation of BBF, it also harks back to those days of 1958 when the TMT would not allow any GC into TC areas, not even garbage collectors. And that is how the enclaves were run in the 60s too, with full EXCLUSION of GCs. This is what is disturbing and the total denial of the racist aspect of such a policy is disheartening. If it was understandable in the 60s it is inexcusable under a BBF system. Which in turn leads to questions of what ulterior motives lie behind insistence on exclusion, especially when even "moderates" like Talat insist on it.

[Oracle]

I fully understand the preoccupation of the TCs with security. As a victim of the Nicosia riots of 1958 I know what it is like to find yourself attacked in your own house.

This is the first step to empathizing with their desire for a BBF and the veiled partition that this form of solution represents. Up to that point everything is understandable, but the interpretation put on BBF as a form of total communal separation and property exchange is what baffles me. BBF objectively means that a totally TC armed police force will control law and order in the north, the separation of political rights means that the TCs will always rule in the north, so why is it necessary to EXCLUDE GCs from the north?

This insistence on exclusion of GCs, even as non voting residents of the north, not only goes against any reasonable interpretation of BBF, it also harks back to those days of 1958 when the TMT would not allow any GC into TC areas, not even garbage collectors. And that is how the enclaves were run in the 60s too, with full EXCLUSION of GCs. This is what is disturbing and the total denial of the racist aspect of such a policy is disheartening. If it was understandable in the 60s it is inexcusable under a BBF system. Which in turn leads to questions of what ulterior motives lie behind insistence on exclusion, especially when even "moderates" like Talat insist on it.

Excellent insight, Nikitas.

This is just the culmination of a half century of partition plans ...

"When the armed struggle started, the British had at their disposal thousands of men and could even increase their existing numbers to put down the EOKA struggle. This they did not do, but they formed instead the well known Auxiliary
Corps. The ordinary Turkish Cypriots, who did not realize where the British were leading them (since their leadership did not warn them, rather it encouraged them), hastened to reinforce this Auxiliary Corps thinking only of securing
a living. Thus, the Greek Cypriots, who thought that they were waging a holy struggle against the British, found themselves facing the Turkish Cypriots. In this way
the British started submitting to the Turkish community their plans for partition."

Ibrahim Aziz, "The Historical Course of the Turkish Cypriot Community", 1981

[Pyrpolizer]

I fully understand the preoccupation of the TCs with security. As a victim of the Nicosia riots of 1958 I know what it is like to find yourself attacked in your own house.

This is the first step to empathizing with their desire for a BBF and the veiled partition that this form of solution represents. Up to that point everything is understandable, but the interpretation put on BBF as a form of total communal separation and property exchange is what baffles me. BBF objectively means that a totally TC armed police force will control law and order in the north, the separation of political rights means that the TCs will always rule in the north, so why is it necessary to EXCLUDE GCs from the north?

This insistence on exclusion of GCs, even as non voting residents of the north, not only goes against any reasonable interpretation of BBF, it also harks back to those days of 1958 when the TMT would not allow any GC into TC areas, not even garbage collectors. And that is how the enclaves were run in the 60s too, with full EXCLUSION of GCs. This is what is disturbing and the total denial of the racist aspect of such a policy is disheartening. If it was understandable in the 60s it is inexcusable under a BBF system. Which in turn leads to questions of what ulterior motives lie behind insistence on exclusion, especially when even "moderates" like Talat insist on it.

I think the vast majority of the Gcs/Tcs alike have not yet realized that BBF is actually a form of veilled partition. The problem with BBF as opposed to a true Federal system like the one of US or Germany is that it requires some degree of human rights violations on a)settlement b)voting
Without those restrictions the BBF system will collapse and we will end up having 2 GC run states. So far so good.

With Talat on power the Turkish side wanted to add restrictions on property ownership, which would obviously halt the process indefinitely.
Needless to say that with Eroglu's funny ideas for 2 separate states the negotiations will not even start.

I am not sure if these are the only exclusions you refer to Nikitas, if there are any other let's hear them.

Things were never rosy, not even with Talat, let's not fool ourselves.

[Nikitas]

Speaking personally I could live with the restriction of political rights (right to vote and seek elective office) being restricted to one's ethnic region. This would be unerstandable in view of the mutual suspicion that has built up over the years. But the expansion of that exclusion principle to include settlement and property was one form of exclusion which sucked.

Of course there were also the implied exclusions which would have been inevitable if the primary ones were to work. For instance, checking the shareholding of any EU investement company to ensure that it did not and would not have any GC shareholders when it invested in land.

[BirKibrisli]

Come on,people...We are all capable of more than just black/white thinking...

There are no 2 Birs here...I am the same person who advocated a democratic Unitary State without any consideration of peoples ethnic backgrounds..I STILL believe that is the best the ideal solution,if we want to progress from two communities to One people,One nation...If it was upto me I would take a shortcut...i would forbid young Cypriots to marry someone from their own ethnic background...Imagine if every single marriage for the next 50 years were between people of dfiferent ethnic backgrounds..What would we have then??? A nation of Cypriots....

What I am trying to tell you now is this: If you want to have a unitary state,like I want to have a unitary state,we need to come to terms with our bloody history...The TCs have been deeply traumatised by the events between 1955 and 1974...They will not accept to put themselves in the same situation again...A situation where they would be at the mercy of the fanatical GCs who are still very prominent in forums like this......When I say that I get accused of supporting theives who want to gain at GC expense...Some even accuse ME of being a thief...That is a terrible insult for someone who have lost everything and lived in exile for over 40 years...On top I get accused of being a partitionist...

If we want a peaceful and lasting solution we must improve mutual respect and trust and understanding...These are not mere words..They represent tangible feelings and sates of mind which can be achieved if we try hard enough...To say lets forget the past ,just look at the future,lets all embrace democracy,human rights and EU principles,might make some here feel intelligent and morally superior,but it has no chance of success...

If you want your minority to trust you,do not tell them they are imagining things in the past,what they lived through didn't really happen...don't insult them,dont call them names like thieves or fascists or racists or partitionists...Try to understand where they are coming from,and show some empathy and compassion...If you consider me a partitionist,then there is really no hope for Cyprus,as Bananiot fully understands..Try to understand what I am telling you,and we might one day come to a point we can have True and permanent reunification...But the status quo have to end as soon as possible for us to have a chance...There will not be anybody left withing 25 years who will want to reunite with anyone...

OK Bir, fair enough. You've told us what GC's need to do. I don't agree with some of it but I respect that its your opinion.

Now tell us, what do you think the TC's need to do to.

The TCs have to do their part in promoting mutual trust and understanding and respect,DT...It is a 2-way street...

The TCs have to understand the trauma suffered by the GCs during and post 74...They are merciless on the EOKA,they have to be more critical of the role of the TMT...They need to understand that the demand for ENOSIS was perfectly natural for the times...It was not necessarily against them...They need to appreciate the role of TMT in promoting Taksim...And the difficulties of running the RoC government under the 1960 Constitution...Both sides have to stop this we are all right you are all wrong attitude,and take responsiblity for their actions...Both sides need to allow themselves to feel ASHAMED FOR THEIR ROLE IN IN THE DESTRUCTION OF THE ORIGINAL REPUBLIC...This shame will lead to collective responsibility for our past actions...We must all learn to move from being guilty to being responsible...

The TCs need to accept that many attrocities took place during the invasion/intervention,and allow themselves to feel guilty about it...They should try to appreciate what it means to be thrown out of your home at gunpoint,and have 40,000 foreign soldiers in your country...They should not justify it by saying "it serves them right"...They should appreciate more the feelings of the GC regarding any special consideration given to the TCs for simply being of a different background...They should realise that "national pride" works both ways,and it is the primary food of fascism...Both sides should realise that what they read in official history books are a white-washed version of the events...Both sides should consider how they can unite under the banner "never again" and "violence and terror can and will be stopped"...Both sides should show more empathy and compassion for the victims of this conflict,instead of continually blame each other..And both sides should realise promoting offical propaganda will only keep the status quo going...
And both sides should get it in their heads that the status quo will only lead to one thing...I don't ned to tell you what that is...

There are lots of other things I can talk about but these will do for now...

Bir I agree with the content of your post, but lets be realistic we are at war with each other, noone from either side is allowed to show empathy for the enemy because at this point they would be called traitors.....You need to be realistic about when this thing or reapproachment will happen you cannot be at war and have reapproachment, Compassion and empathy will come after the solution when both sides trust each other and everyone wants to open up the ears and listen....i was foolish enough to believe that when the Green line opened up that the Cafes in Nicosia would be mingling with Gc Tc kids together discussing their futures together but when you go there and see the cafe's they are segrated among Gc and Tc....noone now wants to sit down and admit guilt....

I see what you are saying,WC...It is a bit of a Catch 22,isnt it?
You can't have empathy and compassion without a solution,and you can't have a soluition without empathy and compassion...That is why we are stuck...The question is how shall we move forward???

[BirKibrisli]

I fully understand the preoccupation of the TCs with security. As a victim of the Nicosia riots of 1958 I know what it is like to find yourself attacked in your own house.

This is the first step to empathizing with their desire for a BBF and the veiled partition that this form of solution represents. Up to that point everything is understandable, but the interpretation put on BBF as a form of total communal separation and property exchange is what baffles me. BBF objectively means that a totally TC armed police force will control law and order in the north, the separation of political rights means that the TCs will always rule in the north, so why is it necessary to EXCLUDE GCs from the north?

This insistence on exclusion of GCs, even as non voting residents of the north, not only goes against any reasonable interpretation of BBF, it also harks back to those days of 1958 when the TMT would not allow any GC into TC areas, not even garbage collectors. And that is how the enclaves were run in the 60s too, with full EXCLUSION of GCs. This is what is disturbing and the total denial of the racist aspect of such a policy is disheartening. If it was understandable in the 60s it is inexcusable under a BBF system. Which in turn leads to questions of what ulterior motives lie behind insistence on exclusion, especially when even "moderates" like Talat insist on it.

I fully agree,Nikitas...
I will not support a BBF which would have such racist rules...
Once the TC political majority is guaranteed (to satisfy the TC fears of losing their majority in their constituent State) there should be no restriction on GCs settling there...And these people should have full voting rights both at the state and federal level...