Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Anyone can plead they are for a united Cyprus in one form or another. But as soon as they use some past abomination as an excuse to modify the present full quota of Human Rights which we are allowed as individuals, to offer to the "other" side extra concessions, then they are partitionists. They should realise they are stoking up further, future, troubles and our island and its people will never be united.

It's not Bir or Ban that I am personally addressing but those views from the past which they, and others, represent. Those "memories" which are harboured and used as killjoys to the future. The solution should only be forged from the presently acceptable guidelines for treating us as a deme and not divisible communities.

[Paphitis]

If what you want is to divide Cyprus into two parts (countries, states, zones, whatever) then by definition you are a partitionist.

If you just accept a form of partition (in order to avoid a worst form of partition) then you are not a partitionist.

Bananiot is not a partitionist since he admitted that what he wants is a unitary state. The same is true for most GCs. A true unification is not possible today, so we all choose to accept the kind of partition that we believe is the least bad. (most of us believe that the de facto partition we have now which at least allows the possibility for unification is the least bad partition, compared with other options that would make this partition legal and permanent).

About Bir I don't know. As DT said there have been two Birs in this forum. It seems that the second one wants partition, while the first one preferred a unitary Cyprus.

This is correct!

Most Cypriots want a unitary State or true BBF which includes free movement and the right of settlement within any of the 2 administered zones. This is not partition.

Most TCs prefer a Confederacy, where basic rights will be violated based on race and where people will not have the right of settlement anywhere in Cyprus. The Annan Plan is a good example. This is partition.


Those that want the Status Quo to continue, only do so because they don't believe that any proposed plan has been or will ever be better than the Status Quo. Then we have the pragmatists who are happy to maintain the Status Quo up until something better comes along, which may include fully agreed partition along the lines of a fair 80:20 split. These people are not partitionists, since they would no doubt prefer a unitary state but believe that such a solution is not achievable, and because they don't believe that any Confederacy plan or True BBF solution will be workable over the longer term.

Those that are partitionists are the racists, who want to divide Cyprus into 2 zones and afford rights to citizens based on race. This is the type of solution that results in some Cypriots favouring agreed partition on an 80:20 basis, because they believe that this is a better option, but not the overall best option of unitary state.

But for this to occur, the TCs need to offer it, and the GCs need to unanimously accept it. If it is not unanimously accepted, then this is OK because everyone needs to vote in accordance with their conscious. There are no right or wrong decisions.

Basically, those that want agreed partition are mostly wanting it to avoid a worst type of partition such as the Annan Plan.

until you and Piratis find the objectivity to get away from the official GC (read ROC) propaganda lines,there will be no solution...And the status quo will only lead to Partition...Agreed or otherwise...

Don't ever consider yourselves to be important enough to be calling any shots here. The RoC has and will control the flow. It comes down to this. You won't be able to do fuck all without the RoC's signature! That's where we have you over the barrel!

As you can see, we are not particularly worried.

[wyoming cowboy]

If you do not support a true BBF then you are a partitionist. Anything less then a true BBf will eventually lead to a partition.

If we do not have enough faith in each other no half way Federal system written on a piece of paper will keep Cyprus from partition. The majority just like the minority cannot live under an eternal umbrella where their natural rights are kept from them. And if either one feels like they are living under that eternal umbrella they will def. revolt.

[wyoming cowboy]

Oracle basically said the same thing as my post above three rows above.

[Bananiot]

Amazing statement!

If you do not support a true BBF then you are a partitionist. Anything less then a true BBf will eventually lead to a partition.

GR, are you a supporter of true BBF or a partitionist?
I think the late Papadopoulos supported BBF with the "right content".
Somehow, I do not believe that Papadopoulos and GR had any differences. Simply, one is a silly forumer (like the rest of us) and the other one was a politician, President of the RoC, and he needed to be careful. He was a lying politician who manipulated words to c.h.a.

After so many years and the disaster that struck we still find it difficult to be honest with ourselves and others. We are prepared to use all sorts of lies which we end up believing in them at the end. EOKA B' for example, did not exist in the 60's yet, people are prepared to lay the blame for crimes committed by GC's in 1963 and later, on the shoulders of an organisation that did not exist. I suppose, we need to pin point the culprit because the crimes are there to be seen by everyone, and since we do not have the guts to admit our guilt, we quite happily shift the blame on perpetrators that do not exist. We therefore come out clean and, just to add insult to injury, even members of this fascist organisation that was created by Grivas later on, use the same argument to explain atrocities by GC's. In Aloa, it was EOKA B' that committed the crimes and in Maratha and Sandalaris the same. Koshi got the same treatment from EOKA B', according to these jokers, but at the time there was no EOKA B'. There were paramilitary organisations, headed by warlords appointed and financed by the state.

If we can come to terms with our past and stop feeding tales to the people we may get another chance at salvaging something. If not, we do not deserve BBF let alone a unitary state.

[wyoming cowboy]

As a matter of fact EOKA B was formed in 1971. There were problems between the two communities between 63-67, i dont think anyone has denied that on this forum. It is unwise to think that all of the problems of Cyprus's two communities will be solved with a piece of paper, When and if a solution is found which is based on a true BBF, the natural course of human nature will emerge from both sides, truths will emerge apologies will be made and life will go on for all citizens of this Federal Republic....Ive seen bits and glimpses of this but since we are technically at war with each other, noone from either side wants to let go....Here in the usa, many atrocities were committed against the negroes, rights were denied, mandatory separation implemented, and also murders rapes and other things.....This culture in the usa, has come a long way with its past and still has a long way to go, the catalyst was MLK, and the civil rights movement.....the President of the usa is an african american......Ive seen this country change before my eyes from black kids being forced bussed to school in the 1970's, and basically segrated from the white kids in a way that skewed the letter of the law, to one of these kids becoming the President.....and negroe families sending their kids to college and competing equally with white kids. If Cyprus isnt united under the ideal that all of its citizens are equal but rather restricted from parts of their country because of their religion or ethnic background then we are def. headed in the wrong direction......and you sir advocate such a thing through your complaints that the Gc rejected the Annan plan, which descriminated against Gc in favor of Tc....

[Bananiot]

Ah, the Annan Plan, that was supported by the US of A, the EU, Greece and just about all international institutions. Just remember, there are no solutions, but options (said by a famous American). I think you put the card before the horse too. Acknowledgment of atrocities committed must come before solution, if solution is to be found.

[Acikgoz]

Just remember, there are no solutions, but options (said by a famous American).

Best quote of the month.

[wyoming cowboy]

The european, or the american didnt have to live under an apartied system, but the Gc did under the annan plan, and thats why they rejected it....The best option for the island is to be united under a true BBF anything less then that will be disaster. Like I said before noone from either side will ever speak up about any atrocities, when we are ready to face them and trust has been built then the details will emerge....This is how human nature is wired, here in the usa today, those things come out from artist, writers, movie makers etc...depending on how free the society is then its artist will reflect it in their arts.....Trying to force these people to come out today is impossible. A laymen's example, when the Vietnam war was being waged rarely did the truth come out about the killings and the culture within the army, now almost 30-40 years later after the wars conclussion, many books, movies, memorials etc have been created. Almost everything is out in the open and people are free to deal with it....

[DT.]

Come on,people...We are all capable of more than just black/white thinking...

There are no 2 Birs here...I am the same person who advocated a democratic Unitary State without any consideration of peoples ethnic backgrounds..I STILL believe that is the best the ideal solution,if we want to progress from two communities to One people,One nation...If it was upto me I would take a shortcut...i would forbid young Cypriots to marry someone from their own ethnic background...Imagine if every single marriage for the next 50 years were between people of dfiferent ethnic backgrounds..What would we have then??? A nation of Cypriots....

What I am trying to tell you now is this: If you want to have a unitary state,like I want to have a unitary state,we need to come to terms with our bloody history...The TCs have been deeply traumatised by the events between 1955 and 1974...They will not accept to put themselves in the same situation again...A situation where they would be at the mercy of the fanatical GCs who are still very prominent in forums like this......When I say that I get accused of supporting theives who want to gain at GC expense...Some even accuse ME of being a thief...That is a terrible insult for someone who have lost everything and lived in exile for over 40 years...On top I get accused of being a partitionist...

If we want a peaceful and lasting solution we must improve mutual respect and trust and understanding...These are not mere words..They represent tangible feelings and sates of mind which can be achieved if we try hard enough...To say lets forget the past ,just look at the future,lets all embrace democracy,human rights and EU principles,might make some here feel intelligent and morally superior,but it has no chance of success...

If you want your minority to trust you,do not tell them they are imagining things in the past,what they lived through didn't really happen...don't insult them,dont call them names like thieves or fascists or racists or partitionists...Try to understand where they are coming from,and show some empathy and compassion...If you consider me a partitionist,then there is really no hope for Cyprus,as Bananiot fully understands..Try to understand what I am telling you,and we might one day come to a point we can have True and permanent reunification...But the status quo have to end as soon as possible for us to have a chance...There will not be anybody left withing 25 years who will want to reunite with anyone...

OK Bir, fair enough. You've told us what GC's need to do. I don't agree with some of it but I respect that its your opinion.

Now tell us, what do you think the TC's need to do to.