Cyprus-Forum.com

[Acikgoz]

Bir, interesting post - thanks for raising it.

The comment on the Cyprus problem was not the only thing people were voting for is very valid and lost in the context of the focus of this forum sometimes. CTP did not do what it had promised outside of the Cyprus problem and Talat with 100% focus on Cyp prob was not able to achieve his objectives. There was a need for change.

The comment on TCs wanting the easy in to EU is really off key. The plan was sensible in their eyes and EU entry for TCs meant an expectation of rights being upheld as without it the risk would remain.

We can say poor management of responsibilities is fundamental to the vote. Talat lacked providing greater inclusion. The wispers of what was being discussed that would effect all TCs without any clarity for the population was uncomfortable.

But as Bir asked, what has happened between 2004-2009?
As it relates to the solution, the insistence of nothing is agreed until everything is agreed has meant no progress has effectively been made in how the two parts can work together.

The bi-communal initiatives that started strong with well meaning have not really taken major root. Their impact has been vastly offset by the other factors such as the property cases, the continued objections to anything representative of the north.

In a previous note the number of TCs moving to the south has not been increasing.

From an economic perspective the green line ruling that was meant to be temporary has remained stagnant. The volume of trade has steadily increased but still remains lopsided towards spending in the south by GCs. The impact of earning propensity for the north has not significantly benefitted from it.

GCs have had no movement on their properties being returned or a land adjustment being made.

The dialogue between the leading figures is far from concilliatory. The mainstream media continues to find better mileage out of vilification.

MPs abroad are lobbied on a zero-sum basis when you look at the partisan nature of the majority of comments.

Basically I see the movement has been aggressively diverging rather than finding convergence. In 2003-04, before EU entry of south and conciliatory movement from north, the energy was very positive. This has been stymied by the Papad vision of EU will fully legitimise south claims and thereafter defensive posturing being taken in the north.

[EPSILON]

Time for us all to put on our thinking caps...

In 2004 Turkish Cypriots voted by an overwhelming majority of 65% FOR a solution to reunite Cyprus...In 2010 they voted,albeit by a slim majority,FOR a President who is well known for his wish for a 2 state solution...So,what happened,or what did not happen,during the ensuing 6 years to bring about such a different result??? Please spend at least a couple of minutes seriously pondering this issue before putting fingers to keyboard...Thanks...

Give to Greeks of Cyprus a plan providing that they will control all Cyprus terittory, sea and air space, Only Greek army to be the real force in the place and ask T/cs or shelters to vote in favor of it!!!If they say no then they do not like the solution , then they are the "bad guys" .

re esy BirKibrisl, psachneis gia "malakes"?

[YFred]

It amazes me that some incomplete individuals (incomplete is the only explanation I can find for such little mental capacity) are harping on about GC negotiations.

1) In these 2 years the GC side offered up Rotating Presidency
2) In these 2 years the GC side offered up 50,000 settlers to remain

1) In these 2 years the TC demanded Split FIR's
2) In these 2 years the TC demanded citizenship for 70million Turks
3) In these 2 years the TC demanded a Presidential council and moved away from rotating presidency (only to begrudgingly return to it with a great round of applause for their concession )
4) In these 2 years the TC side has repeatedly stated that no land will be given up

We have had a liberal GC President offering up everything he could in order to overcome the stalemate. He did so with great animosity from most political parties. The TC side has decided to reward this behaviour with the election of a TMT officer that demands separate states.

And then you have these "incomplete" individuals on the forum blaming the GC side for not "knowing what they want".

What does the TC side want? 2 separate states or a BBF? What does eroglu want? How embarassed do TC's feel everytime Yfred opens his mouth on this forum? (that last one was just bugging me and I had to know)

In the mean time TC economy is being suffocated even further. I think TCs have a view on that DT. Roll it up in a cylindrical shape ans shove it you know where. Another few years and it will be 95% of TCs. You will still be non the wiser as to what is going on. This from an educated person, got help us for the rest.
As you were DT. Wait for it wairt for it, about Leeeeeft turn.

[BirKibrisli]

I can see a clear theme emerging from this thread...As far as most GCs are concerned the Annan Plan was Partition in disguise,so the TCs voted for partition in 2004 and they voted for a Partitionist in 2010,nothing has changed...

Perhaps this is where the problem lies...Those TCs who voted for the Annan plan did not think they were voting for Partition...They thought were voting for Reunification with a lot of compromises..Remember that the arch-partitionist,Denktash and his former party,he UBP were srongly against the AP...Varosia and Morphou were to be returned. Turkish Army would be withdrawn,albeit according to a timetable...All but 45000 of the settlers would depart...A certain percentage of the GC refugees would be allowed to return....and of course the ultimate compromise for the TCs,the trnc would be abolished...All this certainly did not seem like partition to the TCs..So the two sides had very different perceptions of what was on offer...There was also a lot of hype and perhaps even some exaggeration regarding the potential EU benefits,but this could not have played such a big role,in my opinion...The TCs knew they would get all the benefits as individuals anyway...As long as they could get themselves an RoC citizenship identity card...The promise of lifting the embargoes and the ensuing turn about did not help the matters either...The TCs saw the GC rejection as a slap in the face...A solution was withing their reach,the long decades of political and social uncertainty and dependence on the goodwill of Turkey were about to come to an end...It would have been a terrible disappointment...Emotions play a big part in most Cypriots life,sometimes to the detriment of sensible and logical analysis of the events...Bloody civil wars and decades of continuing and escalating disputes and animosity often deprive people of objective judgement...This is playing an important part in the current impasse I believe...Neither side really understands or appreciates the other's predicament...Hence what seems to be a big compromise for one side can easily be dismissed as insignificant for the other...This is what happens if you try to solve a long standing dispute without coming to terms objectively with the historical reasons underlining it...

[DT.]

It amazes me that some incomplete individuals (incomplete is the only explanation I can find for such little mental capacity) are harping on about GC negotiations.

1) In these 2 years the GC side offered up Rotating Presidency
2) In these 2 years the GC side offered up 50,000 settlers to remain

1) In these 2 years the TC demanded Split FIR's
2) In these 2 years the TC demanded citizenship for 70million Turks
3) In these 2 years the TC demanded a Presidential council and moved away from rotating presidency (only to begrudgingly return to it with a great round of applause for their concession )
4) In these 2 years the TC side has repeatedly stated that no land will be given up

We have had a liberal GC President offering up everything he could in order to overcome the stalemate. He did so with great animosity from most political parties. The TC side has decided to reward this behaviour with the election of a TMT officer that demands separate states.

And then you have these "incomplete" individuals on the forum blaming the GC side for not "knowing what they want".

What does the TC side want? 2 separate states or a BBF? What does eroglu want? How embarassed do TC's feel everytime Yfred opens his mouth on this forum? (that last one was just bugging me and I had to know)

In the mean time TC economy is being suffocated even further. I think TCs have a view on that DT. Roll it up in a cylindrical shape ans shove it you know where. Another few years and it will be 95% of TCs. You will still be non the wiser as to what is going on. This from an educated person, got help us for the rest.
As you were DT. Wait for it wairt for it, about Leeeeeft turn.

Getting felt up by the local hodja doesn't qualify as an education yfronts.

[Oracle]

It amazes me that some incomplete individuals (incomplete is the only explanation I can find for such little mental capacity) are harping on about GC negotiations.

1) In these 2 years the GC side offered up Rotating Presidency
2) In these 2 years the GC side offered up 50,000 settlers to remain

1) In these 2 years the TC demanded Split FIR's
2) In these 2 years the TC demanded citizenship for 70million Turks
3) In these 2 years the TC demanded a Presidential council and moved away from rotating presidency (only to begrudgingly return to it with a great round of applause for their concession )
4) In these 2 years the TC side has repeatedly stated that no land will be given up

We have had a liberal GC President offering up everything he could in order to overcome the stalemate. He did so with great animosity from most political parties. The TC side has decided to reward this behaviour with the election of a TMT officer that demands separate states.

And then you have these "incomplete" individuals on the forum blaming the GC side for not "knowing what they want".

What does the TC side want? 2 separate states or a BBF? What does eroglu want? How embarassed do TC's feel everytime Yfred opens his mouth on this forum? (that last one was just bugging me and I had to know)

They want nothing less than to have us as slaves. The more we do for them, the harder they beat us.

[Pyrpolizer]

When the Anan Plan results were being discussed in this forum, I claimed that the 65% yes vote coming from a population of "TCs" (in quotation marks because what was and still is called "TC" voting was and still is by 50%-60% settlers voting) was in my opinion actually VERY LOW. The Anan Plan was clearly a partitionist plan, and imo it was giving the "TCs" almost everything, almost legalising the results of the 1974 invasion. I then concluded that even if the "TCs" get everything, there would still be a 35% of them that would want nothing else other than partition.

Btw we once again heard some nonsense in this forum as for example that according to the Anan Plan Morfou would be returned to the GCs. The only thing that would be returned would be the town of Morfou not the gardens or the agicultural land of Morfou. What would Morfou be without it’s productive land I don’t know…

There is absolutely no surprise in Eroglu’s win. Adding to his almost 51% the 4% of Ertogluoglu and comparing that to the 40% of Talat, this makes the partitionist front among the "Tcs" much stronger than the unification front. It was always like that…. Nothing has changed.

In fact do some simple maths comparing the Anan Plan results to last voting results. THEY ARE IDENTICAL!! 35% unbent partitionists, 40% pro unification, 25% who would say yes only to disguised partition.

Talat won in 2004 simply because of the Anan plan. We will never win again.The "Tcs" are heading to a new 30 year Denktash Dream Era, with a different name.

[Pyrpolizer]

I can see a clear theme emerging from this thread...As far as most GCs are concerned the Annan Plan was Partition in disguise,so the TCs voted for partition in 2004 and they voted for a Partitionist in 2010,nothing has changed...

Perhaps this is where the problem lies...Those TCs who voted for the Annan plan did not think they were voting for Partition...They thought were voting for Reunification with a lot of compromises..Remember that the arch-partitionist,Denktash and his former party,he UBP were srongly against the AP...Varosia and Morphou were to be returned. Turkish Army would be withdrawn,albeit according to a timetable...All but 45000 of the settlers would depart...A certain percentage of the GC refugees would be allowed to return....and of course the ultimate compromise for the TCs,the trnc would be abolished...All this certainly did not seem like partition to the TCs..So the two sides had very different perceptions of what was on offer...There was also a lot of hype and perhaps even some exaggeration regarding the potential EU benefits,but this could not have played such a big role,in my opinion...The TCs knew they would get all the benefits as individuals anyway...As long as they could get themselves an RoC citizenship identity card...The promise of lifting the embargoes and the ensuing turn about did not help the matters either...The TCs saw the GC rejection as a slap in the face...A solution was withing their reach,the long decades of political and social uncertainty and dependence on the goodwill of Turkey were about to come to an end...It would have been a terrible disappointment...Emotions play a big part in most Cypriots life,sometimes to the detriment of sensible and logical analysis of the events...Bloody civil wars and decades of continuing and escalating disputes and animosity often deprive people of objective judgement...This is playing an important part in the current impasse I believe...Neither side really understands or appreciates the other's predicament...Hence what seems to be a big compromise for one side can easily be dismissed as insignificant for the other...This is what happens if you try to solve a long standing dispute without coming to terms objectively with the historical reasons underlining it...

Hi Bir how are you my friend.

1)Not all "TCs" are partitionists. See my percentages above. Besides unfortunately we have a large percentage of settlers in the so called "TC" voting. I heard yesterday that the Karpas peninsula voted en mass for Eroglu. But we all know the Karpas is all settlers...

2)I can understand the "slap in the face" feeling among the pro true unification "TCs" who i estimate about 40%. I beleive among the real TCs the percentage of those is around 60%. Unfortunately the will of the real TCs has been eroded by the settlers my friend....

[YFred]

It amazes me that some incomplete individuals (incomplete is the only explanation I can find for such little mental capacity) are harping on about GC negotiations.

1) In these 2 years the GC side offered up Rotating Presidency
2) In these 2 years the GC side offered up 50,000 settlers to remain

1) In these 2 years the TC demanded Split FIR's
2) In these 2 years the TC demanded citizenship for 70million Turks
3) In these 2 years the TC demanded a Presidential council and moved away from rotating presidency (only to begrudgingly return to it with a great round of applause for their concession )
4) In these 2 years the TC side has repeatedly stated that no land will be given up

We have had a liberal GC President offering up everything he could in order to overcome the stalemate. He did so with great animosity from most political parties. The TC side has decided to reward this behaviour with the election of a TMT officer that demands separate states.

And then you have these "incomplete" individuals on the forum blaming the GC side for not "knowing what they want".

What does the TC side want? 2 separate states or a BBF? What does eroglu want? How embarassed do TC's feel everytime Yfred opens his mouth on this forum? (that last one was just bugging me and I had to know)

In the mean time TC economy is being suffocated even further. I think TCs have a view on that DT. Roll it up in a cylindrical shape ans shove it you know where. Another few years and it will be 95% of TCs. You will still be non the wiser as to what is going on. This from an educated person, got help us for the rest.
As you were DT. Wait for it wairt for it, about Leeeeeft turn.

Getting felt up by the local hodja doesn't qualify as an education yfronts.

You are allowing your personal experiences to cloud your judgement. Was the old papaz a little too rough. Really DT please do seek some help. God knows you need it. But then again it would make no difference to genes so forget it. We'll put you down to no hopers.

[Get Real!]

Time for us all to put on our thinking caps...

In 2004 Turkish Cypriots voted by an overwhelming majority of 65% FOR a solution to reunite Cyprus...In 2010 they voted,albeit by a slim majority,FOR a President who is well known for his wish for a 2 state solution...So,what happened,or what did not happen,during the ensuing 6 years to bring about such a different result??? Please spend at least a couple of minutes seriously pondering this issue before putting fingers to keyboard...Thanks...

First of all, what percentage of the electorate in the occupied territory was “Turkish Cypriot” in 2004 compared to that of 2010? Have you bothered to do some research before asking this question?

Secondly, from those “Turkish Cypriots” that are still left in Cyprus from 2004, how many of them have finally realized that the RoC will never accept their stupid blackmails such as “power sharing”, the theft of GC land, and many more? A fair number I’d say…