Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Dear Kikapu,

Thank you for the time and effort you put in replying to my post...I wish I had the energy and the motivation to give you an equally detailed response..But,to be honest,I am very disheartened these days about our ability to ever find a solution...I don't mean you and I,but those who are in charge of our fate,those whose responsibility it is to negotiate a fair and lasting solution...

I will make a few quick observations. I think we have spent enough time blaming the other side and everybody else we can think of for our predicament...This doesn't mean I do not appreciate the role "others" played in our conflict...The fact is nations,especially the big powers,always act in their own interest,and they see it justified to bend the world to their will...It is really up to us to wake up to this,and start taking our own fates in our own hands...To do this we must look objectively to the past,and the events which brought us here...And accept our part in it...The democratic system have a lot going for it,but it has one huge disadvantage...It is run by certain creatures called "politicians"...These people are driven by self-interest above all else...They are not about to be honest and open about the wrongs of their own side,as that would quickly put them out of favour with their voters...


We are stuck with each side pushing their own barrel,giving their own people the official propaganda line...This works well in getting them ,and sometimes keeping them in power,but does nothing to advance a solution based on truth and objectivity...

You and I can sit here and agree on everything but it will change nothing in the real world...The art of compromise is not easily practised by our "leaders",and when there is no compromise there can be no understanding or respect so needed to overcome long-held prejudices and animosity...

Yes, the ideal solution is one based on fundamental democratic and human values...But,No,that is beyond our reach at his point in time...We need the wisdom to realise this and do not insist on the impossible...That is the sure way to preserve the status quo,and forbid a solution...

Those who pretend to be the legitimate government of Cyprus,those who are in the majority who have had the strings of power and influence for so long, are largely responsible for promoting the necessary trust,respect and understanding between all Cypriots...The succesive RoC governments have failed to do this miserably in the past,and are only making a half hearted attempt at the moment...

Trying to shame the TCs into submission with taking the higher moral ground and harping on about democracy and human rights will get us nowhere...Once we all realise this we can look for other more realistic ways of solving the problem...In my opinion we need " 100 ovens full of bread"(to quote a TC saying) before we get to that position...Till then those who believe that "No Solution is a Solution" will be sleeping comfortably in their beds at night...

Hi Bir,

Can't argue with most of what you have said above. My only concern is, lets not repeat the old failed system of the 60's with something much worse, as the case would have been with the AP. Even if Partition was not going to happen through disguised way, the AP was a fundamentally a flawed settlement that would have been an Apartheid system that would have robbed "Paul to pay Peter". Under those conditions, one can only expect trouble to ferment sooner or later.

But before I go, let me give you couple of statements from two different people.

First from Halil's views on the Annan Plan.

"Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=140


Secondly from Bananiot's views on the Annan Plan.

"The Plan itself left many things to be desired. One could almost find reasons to vote against it in every paragraph and every clause of it."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=30

Just to be fair on the above statement by Bananiot, he also explained the reasons why he had supported the AP.


The point is, the whole plan was faulty, but to Halil it was just perfect, as long as he got everything he wanted. When one gets everything they wanted, then it can only come from others by losing it. This was not the way to build a unified Cyprus, and AP did nothing to bring that about.

[BirKibrisli]

Dear Kikapu,

Thank you for the time and effort you put in replying to my post...I wish I had the energy and the motivation to give you an equally detailed response..But,to be honest,I am very disheartened these days about our ability to ever find a solution...I don't mean you and I,but those who are in charge of our fate,those whose responsibility it is to negotiate a fair and lasting solution...

I will make a few quick observations. I think we have spent enough time blaming the other side and everybody else we can think of for our predicament...This doesn't mean I do not appreciate the role "others" played in our conflict...The fact is nations,especially the big powers,always act in their own interest,and they see it justified to bend the world to their will...It is really up to us to wake up to this,and start taking our own fates in our own hands...To do this we must look objectively to the past,and the events which brought us here...And accept our part in it...The democratic system have a lot going for it,but it has one huge disadvantage...It is run by certain creatures called "politicians"...These people are driven by self-interest above all else...They are not about to be honest and open about the wrongs of their own side,as that would quickly put them out of favour with their voters...


We are stuck with each side pushing their own barrel,giving their own people the official propaganda line...This works well in getting them ,and sometimes keeping them in power,but does nothing to advance a solution based on truth and objectivity...

You and I can sit here and agree on everything but it will change nothing in the real world...The art of compromise is not easily practised by our "leaders",and when there is no compromise there can be no understanding or respect so needed to overcome long-held prejudices and animosity...

Yes, the ideal solution is one based on fundamental democratic and human values...But,No,that is beyond our reach at his point in time...We need the wisdom to realise this and do not insist on the impossible...That is the sure way to preserve the status quo,and forbid a solution...

Those who pretend to be the legitimate government of Cyprus,those who are in the majority who have had the strings of power and influence for so long, are largely responsible for promoting the necessary trust,respect and understanding between all Cypriots...The succesive RoC governments have failed to do this miserably in the past,and are only making a half hearted attempt at the moment...

Trying to shame the TCs into submission with taking the higher moral ground and harping on about democracy and human rights will get us nowhere...Once we all realise this we can look for other more realistic ways of solving the problem...In my opinion we need " 100 ovens full of bread"(to quote a TC saying) before we get to that position...Till then those who believe that "No Solution is a Solution" will be sleeping comfortably in their beds at night...

Hi Bir,

Can't argue with most of what you have said above. My only concern is, lets not repeat the old failed system of the 60's with something much worse, as the case would have been with the AP. Even if Partition was not going to happen through disguised way, the AP was a fundamentally a flawed settlement that would have been an Apartheid system that would have robbed "Paul to pay Peter". Under those conditions, one can only expect trouble to ferment sooner or later.

But before I go, let me give you couple of statements from two different people.

First from Halil's views on the Annan Plan.

"Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=140


Secondly from Bananiot's views on the Annan Plan.

"The Plan itself left many things to be desired. One could almost find reasons to vote against it in every paragraph and every clause of it."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=30

Just to be fair on the above statement by Bananiot, he also explained the reasons why he had supported the AP.


The point is, the whole plan was faulty, but to Halil it was just perfect, as long as he got everything he wanted. When one gets everything they wanted, then it can only come from others by losing it. This was not the way to build a unified Cyprus, and AP did nothing to bring that about.

I am not sure what Halil meant by " Annan plan was giving all of it for us ",perhaps he can explain it...I am sure there were a lot of TCs who wanted things to stay just the same...35% of the voters to be exact...For them to the AP was not satisfying...It was not giving them everything they wanted...

The argument comes down to whether you believe it was better to adopt the AP,with all its faults,and move forward, or rejected it and keep being stuck in the bog hole we have been in for a long time hoping for a better solution sometime in the future...Well it is 6 years down the drain and we are still in the same bog hole without any sign of an agreement in the horizon...This is a subjective matter,and we will all make our own minds up about it...I don't think there is a right or wrong in this matter,just a political and philosophical preference...Anything apart from a Unitary state will be an Apartheid system intrinsically with some winners and some losers,and if you are waiting for a Unitary state with full democracy and human rights you will have a long time to wait,Kikapu...I don't think neither of us will live long enough to see it...

[Kikapu]

Dear Kikapu,

Thank you for the time and effort you put in replying to my post...I wish I had the energy and the motivation to give you an equally detailed response..But,to be honest,I am very disheartened these days about our ability to ever find a solution...I don't mean you and I,but those who are in charge of our fate,those whose responsibility it is to negotiate a fair and lasting solution...

I will make a few quick observations. I think we have spent enough time blaming the other side and everybody else we can think of for our predicament...This doesn't mean I do not appreciate the role "others" played in our conflict...The fact is nations,especially the big powers,always act in their own interest,and they see it justified to bend the world to their will...It is really up to us to wake up to this,and start taking our own fates in our own hands...To do this we must look objectively to the past,and the events which brought us here...And accept our part in it...The democratic system have a lot going for it,but it has one huge disadvantage...It is run by certain creatures called "politicians"...These people are driven by self-interest above all else...They are not about to be honest and open about the wrongs of their own side,as that would quickly put them out of favour with their voters...


We are stuck with each side pushing their own barrel,giving their own people the official propaganda line...This works well in getting them ,and sometimes keeping them in power,but does nothing to advance a solution based on truth and objectivity...

You and I can sit here and agree on everything but it will change nothing in the real world...The art of compromise is not easily practised by our "leaders",and when there is no compromise there can be no understanding or respect so needed to overcome long-held prejudices and animosity...

Yes, the ideal solution is one based on fundamental democratic and human values...But,No,that is beyond our reach at his point in time...We need the wisdom to realise this and do not insist on the impossible...That is the sure way to preserve the status quo,and forbid a solution...

Those who pretend to be the legitimate government of Cyprus,those who are in the majority who have had the strings of power and influence for so long, are largely responsible for promoting the necessary trust,respect and understanding between all Cypriots...The succesive RoC governments have failed to do this miserably in the past,and are only making a half hearted attempt at the moment...

Trying to shame the TCs into submission with taking the higher moral ground and harping on about democracy and human rights will get us nowhere...Once we all realise this we can look for other more realistic ways of solving the problem...In my opinion we need " 100 ovens full of bread"(to quote a TC saying) before we get to that position...Till then those who believe that "No Solution is a Solution" will be sleeping comfortably in their beds at night...

Hi Bir,

Can't argue with most of what you have said above. My only concern is, lets not repeat the old failed system of the 60's with something much worse, as the case would have been with the AP. Even if Partition was not going to happen through disguised way, the AP was a fundamentally a flawed settlement that would have been an Apartheid system that would have robbed "Paul to pay Peter". Under those conditions, one can only expect trouble to ferment sooner or later.

But before I go, let me give you couple of statements from two different people.

First from Halil's views on the Annan Plan.

"Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=140


Secondly from Bananiot's views on the Annan Plan.

"The Plan itself left many things to be desired. One could almost find reasons to vote against it in every paragraph and every clause of it."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=30

Just to be fair on the above statement by Bananiot, he also explained the reasons why he had supported the AP.


The point is, the whole plan was faulty, but to Halil it was just perfect, as long as he got everything he wanted. When one gets everything they wanted, then it can only come from others by losing it. This was not the way to build a unified Cyprus, and AP did nothing to bring that about.

I am not sure what Halil meant by " Annan plan was giving all of it for us ",perhaps he can explain it...I am sure there were a lot of TCs who wanted things to stay just the same...35% of the voters to be exact...For them to the AP was not satisfying...It was not giving them everything they wanted...

The argument comes down to whether you believe it was better to adopt the AP,with all its faults,and move forward, or rejected it and keep being stuck in the bog hole we have been in for a long time hoping for a better solution sometime in the future...Well it is 6 years down the drain and we are still in the same bog hole without any sign of an agreement in the horizon...This is a subjective matter,and we will all make our own minds up about it...I don't think there is a right or wrong in this matter,just a political and philosophical preference...Anything apart from a Unitary state will be an Apartheid system intrinsically with some winners and some losers,and if you are waiting for a Unitary state with full democracy and human rights you will have a long time to wait,Kikapu...I don't think neither of us will live long enough to see it...

Halil's point of views was shared by the majority of the TCs and who had voted accordingly, just because they saw it that it would benefit them by voting "YES".

Bananiot's point of view was shared by the majority of the GCs as to the reasons why they voted "NO", despite Bananiot himself voting "YES" despite his statement above.

You can argue that majority from both sides voted as they saw it, which was, it was going to be a plus for the TCs and minus for the GCs, which the end result stated just that.

As for me, agreeing to a Apartheid system with the AP in the hopes that it would get better later, would have produced nothing but the 1963 all over again in one form or another. A True Federation with a north and south states as it is practiced in the USA and in what I proposed is what I see as a win-win for majority of the TCs and the GCs. This can ONLY come about if,

a) Enough land is returned back to the GCs to becaome part of the south state

b) The Taksim dream for the TCs is extinguished once and for all

c) Turkey, Britain and Greece wash their hands off Cyprus once and for all militarily and become important economic and political "partners" instead.

[BirKibrisli]

Dear Kikapu,

Thank you for the time and effort you put in replying to my post...I wish I had the energy and the motivation to give you an equally detailed response..But,to be honest,I am very disheartened these days about our ability to ever find a solution...I don't mean you and I,but those who are in charge of our fate,those whose responsibility it is to negotiate a fair and lasting solution...

I will make a few quick observations. I think we have spent enough time blaming the other side and everybody else we can think of for our predicament...This doesn't mean I do not appreciate the role "others" played in our conflict...The fact is nations,especially the big powers,always act in their own interest,and they see it justified to bend the world to their will...It is really up to us to wake up to this,and start taking our own fates in our own hands...To do this we must look objectively to the past,and the events which brought us here...And accept our part in it...The democratic system have a lot going for it,but it has one huge disadvantage...It is run by certain creatures called "politicians"...These people are driven by self-interest above all else...They are not about to be honest and open about the wrongs of their own side,as that would quickly put them out of favour with their voters...


We are stuck with each side pushing their own barrel,giving their own people the official propaganda line...This works well in getting them ,and sometimes keeping them in power,but does nothing to advance a solution based on truth and objectivity...

You and I can sit here and agree on everything but it will change nothing in the real world...The art of compromise is not easily practised by our "leaders",and when there is no compromise there can be no understanding or respect so needed to overcome long-held prejudices and animosity...

Yes, the ideal solution is one based on fundamental democratic and human values...But,No,that is beyond our reach at his point in time...We need the wisdom to realise this and do not insist on the impossible...That is the sure way to preserve the status quo,and forbid a solution...

Those who pretend to be the legitimate government of Cyprus,those who are in the majority who have had the strings of power and influence for so long, are largely responsible for promoting the necessary trust,respect and understanding between all Cypriots...The succesive RoC governments have failed to do this miserably in the past,and are only making a half hearted attempt at the moment...

Trying to shame the TCs into submission with taking the higher moral ground and harping on about democracy and human rights will get us nowhere...Once we all realise this we can look for other more realistic ways of solving the problem...In my opinion we need " 100 ovens full of bread"(to quote a TC saying) before we get to that position...Till then those who believe that "No Solution is a Solution" will be sleeping comfortably in their beds at night...

Hi Bir,

Can't argue with most of what you have said above. My only concern is, lets not repeat the old failed system of the 60's with something much worse, as the case would have been with the AP. Even if Partition was not going to happen through disguised way, the AP was a fundamentally a flawed settlement that would have been an Apartheid system that would have robbed "Paul to pay Peter". Under those conditions, one can only expect trouble to ferment sooner or later.

But before I go, let me give you couple of statements from two different people.

First from Halil's views on the Annan Plan.

"Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=140


Secondly from Bananiot's views on the Annan Plan.

"The Plan itself left many things to be desired. One could almost find reasons to vote against it in every paragraph and every clause of it."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=30

Just to be fair on the above statement by Bananiot, he also explained the reasons why he had supported the AP.


The point is, the whole plan was faulty, but to Halil it was just perfect, as long as he got everything he wanted. When one gets everything they wanted, then it can only come from others by losing it. This was not the way to build a unified Cyprus, and AP did nothing to bring that about.

I am not sure what Halil meant by " Annan plan was giving all of it for us ",perhaps he can explain it...I am sure there were a lot of TCs who wanted things to stay just the same...35% of the voters to be exact...For them to the AP was not satisfying...It was not giving them everything they wanted...

The argument comes down to whether you believe it was better to adopt the AP,with all its faults,and move forward, or rejected it and keep being stuck in the bog hole we have been in for a long time hoping for a better solution sometime in the future...Well it is 6 years down the drain and we are still in the same bog hole without any sign of an agreement in the horizon...This is a subjective matter,and we will all make our own minds up about it...I don't think there is a right or wrong in this matter,just a political and philosophical preference...Anything apart from a Unitary state will be an Apartheid system intrinsically with some winners and some losers,and if you are waiting for a Unitary state with full democracy and human rights you will have a long time to wait,Kikapu...I don't think neither of us will live long enough to see it...

Halil's point of views was shared by the majority of the TCs and who had voted accordingly, just because they saw it that it would benefit them by voting "YES".

Bananiot's point of view was shared by the majority of the GCs as to the reasons why they voted "NO", despite Bananiot himself voting "YES" despite his statement above.

You can argue that majority from both sides voted as they saw it, which was, it was going to be a plus for the TCs and minus for the GCs, which the end result stated just that.

As for me, agreeing to a Apartheid system with the AP in the hopes that it would get better later, would have produced nothing but the 1963 all over again in one form or another. A True Federation with a north and south states as it is practiced in the USA and in what I proposed is what I see as a win-win for majority of the TCs and the GCs. This can ONLY come about if,

a) Enough land is returned back to the GCs to becaome part of the south state

b) The Taksim dream for the TCs is extinguished once and for all

c) Turkey, Britain and Greece wash their hands off Cyprus once and for all militarily and become important economic and political "partners" instead.

Assuming that we can have True Federation and without Apartheid,as you wish,Kikapu,why would the TC state need to be less than 29% IF most of the GC refugees will return to live in the North???

[Kikapu]

Dear Kikapu,

Thank you for the time and effort you put in replying to my post...I wish I had the energy and the motivation to give you an equally detailed response..But,to be honest,I am very disheartened these days about our ability to ever find a solution...I don't mean you and I,but those who are in charge of our fate,those whose responsibility it is to negotiate a fair and lasting solution...

I will make a few quick observations. I think we have spent enough time blaming the other side and everybody else we can think of for our predicament...This doesn't mean I do not appreciate the role "others" played in our conflict...The fact is nations,especially the big powers,always act in their own interest,and they see it justified to bend the world to their will...It is really up to us to wake up to this,and start taking our own fates in our own hands...To do this we must look objectively to the past,and the events which brought us here...And accept our part in it...The democratic system have a lot going for it,but it has one huge disadvantage...It is run by certain creatures called "politicians"...These people are driven by self-interest above all else...They are not about to be honest and open about the wrongs of their own side,as that would quickly put them out of favour with their voters...


We are stuck with each side pushing their own barrel,giving their own people the official propaganda line...This works well in getting them ,and sometimes keeping them in power,but does nothing to advance a solution based on truth and objectivity...

You and I can sit here and agree on everything but it will change nothing in the real world...The art of compromise is not easily practised by our "leaders",and when there is no compromise there can be no understanding or respect so needed to overcome long-held prejudices and animosity...

Yes, the ideal solution is one based on fundamental democratic and human values...But,No,that is beyond our reach at his point in time...We need the wisdom to realise this and do not insist on the impossible...That is the sure way to preserve the status quo,and forbid a solution...

Those who pretend to be the legitimate government of Cyprus,those who are in the majority who have had the strings of power and influence for so long, are largely responsible for promoting the necessary trust,respect and understanding between all Cypriots...The succesive RoC governments have failed to do this miserably in the past,and are only making a half hearted attempt at the moment...

Trying to shame the TCs into submission with taking the higher moral ground and harping on about democracy and human rights will get us nowhere...Once we all realise this we can look for other more realistic ways of solving the problem...In my opinion we need " 100 ovens full of bread"(to quote a TC saying) before we get to that position...Till then those who believe that "No Solution is a Solution" will be sleeping comfortably in their beds at night...

Hi Bir,

Can't argue with most of what you have said above. My only concern is, lets not repeat the old failed system of the 60's with something much worse, as the case would have been with the AP. Even if Partition was not going to happen through disguised way, the AP was a fundamentally a flawed settlement that would have been an Apartheid system that would have robbed "Paul to pay Peter". Under those conditions, one can only expect trouble to ferment sooner or later.

But before I go, let me give you couple of statements from two different people.

First from Halil's views on the Annan Plan.

"Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=140


Secondly from Bananiot's views on the Annan Plan.

"The Plan itself left many things to be desired. One could almost find reasons to vote against it in every paragraph and every clause of it."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=30

Just to be fair on the above statement by Bananiot, he also explained the reasons why he had supported the AP.


The point is, the whole plan was faulty, but to Halil it was just perfect, as long as he got everything he wanted. When one gets everything they wanted, then it can only come from others by losing it. This was not the way to build a unified Cyprus, and AP did nothing to bring that about.

I am not sure what Halil meant by " Annan plan was giving all of it for us ",perhaps he can explain it...I am sure there were a lot of TCs who wanted things to stay just the same...35% of the voters to be exact...For them to the AP was not satisfying...It was not giving them everything they wanted...

The argument comes down to whether you believe it was better to adopt the AP,with all its faults,and move forward, or rejected it and keep being stuck in the bog hole we have been in for a long time hoping for a better solution sometime in the future...Well it is 6 years down the drain and we are still in the same bog hole without any sign of an agreement in the horizon...This is a subjective matter,and we will all make our own minds up about it...I don't think there is a right or wrong in this matter,just a political and philosophical preference...Anything apart from a Unitary state will be an Apartheid system intrinsically with some winners and some losers,and if you are waiting for a Unitary state with full democracy and human rights you will have a long time to wait,Kikapu...I don't think neither of us will live long enough to see it...

Halil's point of views was shared by the majority of the TCs and who had voted accordingly, just because they saw it that it would benefit them by voting "YES".

Bananiot's point of view was shared by the majority of the GCs as to the reasons why they voted "NO", despite Bananiot himself voting "YES" despite his statement above.

You can argue that majority from both sides voted as they saw it, which was, it was going to be a plus for the TCs and minus for the GCs, which the end result stated just that.

As for me, agreeing to a Apartheid system with the AP in the hopes that it would get better later, would have produced nothing but the 1963 all over again in one form or another. A True Federation with a north and south states as it is practiced in the USA and in what I proposed is what I see as a win-win for majority of the TCs and the GCs. This can ONLY come about if,

a) Enough land is returned back to the GCs to becaome part of the south state

b) The Taksim dream for the TCs is extinguished once and for all

c) Turkey, Britain and Greece wash their hands off Cyprus once and for all militarily and become important economic and political "partners" instead.

Assuming that we can have True Federation and without Apartheid,as you wish,Kikapu,why would the TC state need to be less than 29% IF most of the GC refugees will return to live in the North???

As far I'm concerned, it can remain as it is today, at 37% for the north state, as long as you understand, that this will mean there will be more GCs in the north as there will be TCs, in which case, the GCs will have political control of the north as well as the south. This is why it is important that the TCs give back 50% of the north as it is now back to the GCs to become part of the south state, so that the TCs can maintain their super majority in the north in population as well as politically, since this is what is concerning them the most, because in a True Federation, it will be the state who will have equal power in the upper house and not equal power between the communities.!

[BirKibrisli]

Dear Kikapu,

Thank you for the time and effort you put in replying to my post...I wish I had the energy and the motivation to give you an equally detailed response..But,to be honest,I am very disheartened these days about our ability to ever find a solution...I don't mean you and I,but those who are in charge of our fate,those whose responsibility it is to negotiate a fair and lasting solution...

I will make a few quick observations. I think we have spent enough time blaming the other side and everybody else we can think of for our predicament...This doesn't mean I do not appreciate the role "others" played in our conflict...The fact is nations,especially the big powers,always act in their own interest,and they see it justified to bend the world to their will...It is really up to us to wake up to this,and start taking our own fates in our own hands...To do this we must look objectively to the past,and the events which brought us here...And accept our part in it...The democratic system have a lot going for it,but it has one huge disadvantage...It is run by certain creatures called "politicians"...These people are driven by self-interest above all else...They are not about to be honest and open about the wrongs of their own side,as that would quickly put them out of favour with their voters...


We are stuck with each side pushing their own barrel,giving their own people the official propaganda line...This works well in getting them ,and sometimes keeping them in power,but does nothing to advance a solution based on truth and objectivity...

You and I can sit here and agree on everything but it will change nothing in the real world...The art of compromise is not easily practised by our "leaders",and when there is no compromise there can be no understanding or respect so needed to overcome long-held prejudices and animosity...

Yes, the ideal solution is one based on fundamental democratic and human values...But,No,that is beyond our reach at his point in time...We need the wisdom to realise this and do not insist on the impossible...That is the sure way to preserve the status quo,and forbid a solution...

Those who pretend to be the legitimate government of Cyprus,those who are in the majority who have had the strings of power and influence for so long, are largely responsible for promoting the necessary trust,respect and understanding between all Cypriots...The succesive RoC governments have failed to do this miserably in the past,and are only making a half hearted attempt at the moment...

Trying to shame the TCs into submission with taking the higher moral ground and harping on about democracy and human rights will get us nowhere...Once we all realise this we can look for other more realistic ways of solving the problem...In my opinion we need " 100 ovens full of bread"(to quote a TC saying) before we get to that position...Till then those who believe that "No Solution is a Solution" will be sleeping comfortably in their beds at night...

Hi Bir,

Can't argue with most of what you have said above. My only concern is, lets not repeat the old failed system of the 60's with something much worse, as the case would have been with the AP. Even if Partition was not going to happen through disguised way, the AP was a fundamentally a flawed settlement that would have been an Apartheid system that would have robbed "Paul to pay Peter". Under those conditions, one can only expect trouble to ferment sooner or later.

But before I go, let me give you couple of statements from two different people.

First from Halil's views on the Annan Plan.

"Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=140


Secondly from Bananiot's views on the Annan Plan.

"The Plan itself left many things to be desired. One could almost find reasons to vote against it in every paragraph and every clause of it."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=30

Just to be fair on the above statement by Bananiot, he also explained the reasons why he had supported the AP.


The point is, the whole plan was faulty, but to Halil it was just perfect, as long as he got everything he wanted. When one gets everything they wanted, then it can only come from others by losing it. This was not the way to build a unified Cyprus, and AP did nothing to bring that about.

I am not sure what Halil meant by " Annan plan was giving all of it for us ",perhaps he can explain it...I am sure there were a lot of TCs who wanted things to stay just the same...35% of the voters to be exact...For them to the AP was not satisfying...It was not giving them everything they wanted...

The argument comes down to whether you believe it was better to adopt the AP,with all its faults,and move forward, or rejected it and keep being stuck in the bog hole we have been in for a long time hoping for a better solution sometime in the future...Well it is 6 years down the drain and we are still in the same bog hole without any sign of an agreement in the horizon...This is a subjective matter,and we will all make our own minds up about it...I don't think there is a right or wrong in this matter,just a political and philosophical preference...Anything apart from a Unitary state will be an Apartheid system intrinsically with some winners and some losers,and if you are waiting for a Unitary state with full democracy and human rights you will have a long time to wait,Kikapu...I don't think neither of us will live long enough to see it...

Halil's point of views was shared by the majority of the TCs and who had voted accordingly, just because they saw it that it would benefit them by voting "YES".

Bananiot's point of view was shared by the majority of the GCs as to the reasons why they voted "NO", despite Bananiot himself voting "YES" despite his statement above.

You can argue that majority from both sides voted as they saw it, which was, it was going to be a plus for the TCs and minus for the GCs, which the end result stated just that.

As for me, agreeing to a Apartheid system with the AP in the hopes that it would get better later, would have produced nothing but the 1963 all over again in one form or another. A True Federation with a north and south states as it is practiced in the USA and in what I proposed is what I see as a win-win for majority of the TCs and the GCs. This can ONLY come about if,

a) Enough land is returned back to the GCs to becaome part of the south state

b) The Taksim dream for the TCs is extinguished once and for all

c) Turkey, Britain and Greece wash their hands off Cyprus once and for all militarily and become important economic and political "partners" instead.

Assuming that we can have True Federation and without Apartheid,as you wish,Kikapu,why would the TC state need to be less than 29% IF most of the GC refugees will return to live in the North???

As far I'm concerned, it can remain as it is today, at 37% for the north state, as long as you understand, that this will mean there will be more GCs in the north as there will be TCs, in which case, the GCs will have political control of the north as well as the south. This is why it is important that the TCs give back 50% of the north as it is now back to the GCs to become part of the south state, so that the TCs can maintain their super majority in the north in population as well as politically, since this is what is concerning them the most, because in a True Federation, it will be the state who will have equal power in the upper house and not equal power between the communities.!

And if you can convince Eroglu to give back 50% of the trnc,in order to have a True federation,that will be okey with me...

[BirKibrisli]

dp...

[Pyrpolizer]

Eroglu will be a test case on who is really holding the strings.
I think we should start getting ready for surprises coming directly from Ankara.

[Kikapu]

Dear Kikapu,

Thank you for the time and effort you put in replying to my post...I wish I had the energy and the motivation to give you an equally detailed response..But,to be honest,I am very disheartened these days about our ability to ever find a solution...I don't mean you and I,but those who are in charge of our fate,those whose responsibility it is to negotiate a fair and lasting solution...

I will make a few quick observations. I think we have spent enough time blaming the other side and everybody else we can think of for our predicament...This doesn't mean I do not appreciate the role "others" played in our conflict...The fact is nations,especially the big powers,always act in their own interest,and they see it justified to bend the world to their will...It is really up to us to wake up to this,and start taking our own fates in our own hands...To do this we must look objectively to the past,and the events which brought us here...And accept our part in it...The democratic system have a lot going for it,but it has one huge disadvantage...It is run by certain creatures called "politicians"...These people are driven by self-interest above all else...They are not about to be honest and open about the wrongs of their own side,as that would quickly put them out of favour with their voters...


We are stuck with each side pushing their own barrel,giving their own people the official propaganda line...This works well in getting them ,and sometimes keeping them in power,but does nothing to advance a solution based on truth and objectivity...

You and I can sit here and agree on everything but it will change nothing in the real world...The art of compromise is not easily practised by our "leaders",and when there is no compromise there can be no understanding or respect so needed to overcome long-held prejudices and animosity...

Yes, the ideal solution is one based on fundamental democratic and human values...But,No,that is beyond our reach at his point in time...We need the wisdom to realise this and do not insist on the impossible...That is the sure way to preserve the status quo,and forbid a solution...

Those who pretend to be the legitimate government of Cyprus,those who are in the majority who have had the strings of power and influence for so long, are largely responsible for promoting the necessary trust,respect and understanding between all Cypriots...The succesive RoC governments have failed to do this miserably in the past,and are only making a half hearted attempt at the moment...

Trying to shame the TCs into submission with taking the higher moral ground and harping on about democracy and human rights will get us nowhere...Once we all realise this we can look for other more realistic ways of solving the problem...In my opinion we need " 100 ovens full of bread"(to quote a TC saying) before we get to that position...Till then those who believe that "No Solution is a Solution" will be sleeping comfortably in their beds at night...

Hi Bir,

Can't argue with most of what you have said above. My only concern is, lets not repeat the old failed system of the 60's with something much worse, as the case would have been with the AP. Even if Partition was not going to happen through disguised way, the AP was a fundamentally a flawed settlement that would have been an Apartheid system that would have robbed "Paul to pay Peter". Under those conditions, one can only expect trouble to ferment sooner or later.

But before I go, let me give you couple of statements from two different people.

First from Halil's views on the Annan Plan.

"Annan plan was giving all of it for us . We were going to be our own EFENDİ."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=140


Secondly from Bananiot's views on the Annan Plan.

"The Plan itself left many things to be desired. One could almost find reasons to vote against it in every paragraph and every clause of it."

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=30

Just to be fair on the above statement by Bananiot, he also explained the reasons why he had supported the AP.


The point is, the whole plan was faulty, but to Halil it was just perfect, as long as he got everything he wanted. When one gets everything they wanted, then it can only come from others by losing it. This was not the way to build a unified Cyprus, and AP did nothing to bring that about.

I am not sure what Halil meant by " Annan plan was giving all of it for us ",perhaps he can explain it...I am sure there were a lot of TCs who wanted things to stay just the same...35% of the voters to be exact...For them to the AP was not satisfying...It was not giving them everything they wanted...

The argument comes down to whether you believe it was better to adopt the AP,with all its faults,and move forward, or rejected it and keep being stuck in the bog hole we have been in for a long time hoping for a better solution sometime in the future...Well it is 6 years down the drain and we are still in the same bog hole without any sign of an agreement in the horizon...This is a subjective matter,and we will all make our own minds up about it...I don't think there is a right or wrong in this matter,just a political and philosophical preference...Anything apart from a Unitary state will be an Apartheid system intrinsically with some winners and some losers,and if you are waiting for a Unitary state with full democracy and human rights you will have a long time to wait,Kikapu...I don't think neither of us will live long enough to see it...

Halil's point of views was shared by the majority of the TCs and who had voted accordingly, just because they saw it that it would benefit them by voting "YES".

Bananiot's point of view was shared by the majority of the GCs as to the reasons why they voted "NO", despite Bananiot himself voting "YES" despite his statement above.

You can argue that majority from both sides voted as they saw it, which was, it was going to be a plus for the TCs and minus for the GCs, which the end result stated just that.

As for me, agreeing to a Apartheid system with the AP in the hopes that it would get better later, would have produced nothing but the 1963 all over again in one form or another. A True Federation with a north and south states as it is practiced in the USA and in what I proposed is what I see as a win-win for majority of the TCs and the GCs. This can ONLY come about if,

a) Enough land is returned back to the GCs to becaome part of the south state

b) The Taksim dream for the TCs is extinguished once and for all

c) Turkey, Britain and Greece wash their hands off Cyprus once and for all militarily and become important economic and political "partners" instead.

Assuming that we can have True Federation and without Apartheid,as you wish,Kikapu,why would the TC state need to be less than 29% IF most of the GC refugees will return to live in the North???

As far I'm concerned, it can remain as it is today, at 37% for the north state, as long as you understand, that this will mean there will be more GCs in the north as there will be TCs, in which case, the GCs will have political control of the north as well as the south. This is why it is important that the TCs give back 50% of the north as it is now back to the GCs to become part of the south state, so that the TCs can maintain their super majority in the north in population as well as politically, since this is what is concerning them the most, because in a True Federation, it will be the state who will have equal power in the upper house and not equal power between the communities.!

And if you can convince Eroglu to give back 50% of the trnc,in order to have a True federation,that will be okey with me...

The north is not in the hands of Eroglu or any other TC politicians to give back. The north is in the hands of Turkey. When Turkey decides to give it back, it will be given back. Eroglu is nothing, just a puppet, so lets not make him out to be somebody, because he is not. If he was someone who wields power and influence, there wouldn't be any need for a settlement talks. The north would have been a recognised independent state by now. It is not.!

[YFred]

You are like inatci kechi. You just cannot comprehend that there are two competing interests in Turkey. She is not one entity. If you think of it as one woman with two tits, you may be able to get your head around it and all that, what?
Although it does depend on how well formed they are and all that, what?
Batsali water melons are quite nice.