Hi Bir,
BirKibrisli wrote:Hello,Kikapu...
I will say at the outset that I am NOT an expert on the Annan Plan...I only followed its progress on the internet,mostly via Turkish and TC newspapers...I was/am aware of the broad outlines but not the details...
That is why I said it may be the case that it is a disguised plan for partition...
I don't think anyone was an expert on the AP at the time, Bir. How would that be possible with 9,000+ pages to go through in such a short time for the voters. Just that alone deserved a "NO" vote just to be on the safe side from all the unknowns that it contained. But just on what was known, was also enough to generate a "NO" vote from the GCs, deservedly in my opinion, just so not to have the problems of a dysfunctional 1959 Zurich Agreements all over again, plus more this time around with the Confederation based on "virgin birth, founding states" concept..
As I've stated in my previous post, that the TCs had everything to gain and nothing to lose by saying "YES" to the AP. It really was a no brainer. The whole AP was marketed in such a way, that the average TCs even not knowing too much about the AP, knew they would get some benefit from it come what may. If nothing tangible, at least politically, which they have milked/milking their "YES" vote on the AP even today to gain some concessions. But let me once again remind you what the husband of my cousin said in Cyprus to me back in 2007. He said that, "the TCs voted ONLY for the AP, and not for Peace with the GCs".You can argue that was one mans opinion, and I would agree with you, but he is also a man who was born and raised in Cyprus who happens to have bought a great deal of GC land on the cheap. Just how many more TCs are like "the husband" who are in his position is unknown to us, but he did vote for the AP as a YES knowing that he was not voting for peace, but for a partition.
BirKibrisli wrote:The immediate question that comes to mind is : Why would the UN general secretary put his name to a plan which was disguised to trick one side in this equation??? I don't expect an answer to that,as there is no logical one possible..It is just a thought...
You need to understand something here, Bir. Kofi Annan is not exactly a squeaky clean politician, and in the same breath, let me say that there are never any squeaky clean politicians anywhere. One can interchange the names of WHORES and POLITICIANS without knowing which is which a lot of the times, so do not assume that Kofi Annan was any less of a WHORE than any other politicians. In many ways, whores do an honest days work, take a shower, and become clean as before. Politicians on the other hand, are mostly whores and corrupted in one way or other, therefore they are worse than a whore. In fact, many politicians give whores a bad name.!
So, lets get back to Kofi Annan. Not only he was a "whore", but also corrupted. USA pays 25% of all the cost in running the UN in New York. Many times, the US would hold back making payments to the UN, just to get what they want from the UN, in a form of a "blackmail". In 2002, Kofi Annnan was up for re-election at the same time the US was at war in Afghanistan and was getting ready to make their case for an illegal war in Iraq. It was also revealed that Kofi's son was up to his neck in illegal dealings with "Oil for Food Program" with Iraqi oil. With the Iraq war being prepared, Kofi was used by the US and UK to basically to look the other way when the war was started, in return for him to be re-elected and also not to crucify him on the cross for his and his son's involvement in illegal transactions in the "Iraqi oil for food program". Therefore, Kofi Annna became a whore and a corrupt politician to the US and the UK. Add George Bush and Tony Blair to th4 mix, as the most unethical and corrupt individuals, you had the " The Three Racketeers" as a team.
Before the Iraq invasion in 2003, US needed Turkey's airspace to invade Iraq from the north, but Turkey refused, even when more than $20 Billion US Dollars was offered for the rights. Now, we can speculate here, that Turkey wanted the AP to pass more than the $20 Billion USD, just because it would have cemented Turkey's place in Cyprus forever as well as open the door for her to be in the EU, or it was a combination af all of the above. The AP would have served Bush and Blair very nicely, thank you very much. Britain would have also cemented their position in Cyprus with further gains than they received in 1959 Zurich Agreements. Turkey in the EU would have also served the Americans nicely also. Therefore we had all the whores, unethical and corrupted politicians wanted to use Cyprus in order for them to make their illegal invasion of Iraq, which they did in the end. But much to the surprised of many, Papadopoulos out foxed them all by allowing everything what Turkey and UK wanted to be in the AP, which made the AP so unpalatable to the common GCs, they would say OXI to it in a heart beat, and at the same time, for the RoC to become a EU member. Average GCs did not need to know what was in the 9,000+ pages to say OXI to the AP. Just the first page was enough to say OXI to it, just as it was enough for the TCs to say "YES" to it. It was a no brainer for both the TCs and the GCs in how they voted. Kofi Annan was the leading man towards the end to add all those provisions into the AP, which would once and for all solve the Cyprus problem that would have benefited the TCs, Turkey and the UK, as well as the US in the form of opening the EU doors to Turkey. The GCs would have been shafted big time, but who cares, as long as the war in Iraq was the main focus, for the US and UK to establish bases there, which they have and will never leave Iraq, specially not with all that "black gold" in the ground. It also gives them far better strategic location for their bases than Inçirlik in Turkey, which is another topic for another time.
BirKibrisli wrote:As i said above i followed the pre referandum period closely via the TC newspapers...All the reports and the comments by various journalist indicated that the TCs were voting for reunification...On the other side the Arch-partitionist Denktas and his followers were warning of the coming doomsday if the AP was accepted...People were in the streets calling for peace and Reunification in their tens of thousands,Kikapu...They truly b elieved,in my opinion,that this was the Real Thing...A just and lasting solution which would finally end decades of conflict and isolation...There was euphoria in the air,people were over the moon...
I think following the Turkish Media for accurate reporting on the AP and the unification was hardly the place to get any unbiased reporting. How often we see today where Turkish Media who does not report news with very much Journalistic Integrity. Sure they sold the whole AP as a Unification package. It was going to be peace and prosperity for all. I'm sure these are the same people who sold the Invasion by Turkey in Cyprus as the world see it, as a "Peace Operation" and not a "Piece Operation" which is what it has been. The Americans tried to sell the Iraq Invasion as "Operation Iraqi Liberation" until they realised that the three leading letter spelled "OIL", which was then changed to "Liberation Iraq Operation" which was in the end, a "Mission Accomplished" for the US and the UK.
I do not doubt the euphoria that the TCs had before the Referendum were real. What was not there to be excited about. They were about to become "Masters in the North and Partners in the South, or to use Halil's term, "EFFENDI's" in the north.! But for the AP to pass by the GCs as a "YES", Denktash needed to go. There was no way that the GCs would say "YES" to anything if Denktash was in agreement with such a plan, so he was made to become an opposition to the AP. After all, if Denktash was against it, then it must be bad for the TCs and Good for the GCs. Simple political trick that did not really work, because Papadopoulos already made sure not to stand in the way of Turkey and UK making the AP as much Racist, Undemocratic, Human Rights and International violations as possible. I'm just surprised nobody in Turkey said, "wow, we are getting away with murder here in what we have asked and gotten into the AP". No one actually stopped to think and say, "hey, if something is too good to be true, it usually is". No, I don't think anyone did. They were all caught up in this massive euphoria and started shouting "Eureka, Eureka, Eureka" (I have found it).!
BirKibrisli wrote:These people believed they were ending years of defacto Partition by voting to Reunify their country...That was the message loud and clear...Now you can argue that they were fooled,didn't really know what they were doing...And I can ask you the same question,how would you know??? For all intends and purposes,the TCs were voting for a final solution,for Reunification...Because they already had partition, and they wanted something else,standing up to those who wanted MORE of the SAME...
Bir, you were giving me the general feeling of individuals thoughts in thousands. That's why I asked you how would you know what the average TC was thinking. Me on the other hand, was giving you my insights on just one entity, the AP. All the marks of a partition were there, which was no different than the 1959 Zurich Agreements.
Some TCs were fooled and some were aware what they were about to get. As I've said, many things were in the open as to what was going to be beneficial for the TCs. Only the most ignorant would have not believed that the whole AP was a Partition Plan in making, to be realised down the road, and since Taksim has never been extinguished from the TCs Psyche from the 50's, how could they not believe it was going to be a partition plan one way or another. At the very least an Apartheid system in Cyprus with the TCs benefiting the most from it. If we are going to be honest with ourselves, then we need to also write the truth. I would have liken it much better if the scale did not tip so far in the TCs direction but somewhere in the middle where compromise was to come from all sides and not mostly from just one side. That was not the case, sorry to say, and so far, it has not been the case in recent negotiations, so in fact, not too much has changed from pre 2004 and now. Obviously these talks have not yet concluded, therefore I'm not going to make any speculation of its ending just yet.
BirKibrisli wrote:What else did you expect ,Kikapu...???
They were planning a BBF,a Bizonal Bicommunal Federation...Not a Unitary state solution in disguise,if you get my meaning...
There had to be 2 geographical zones in which 2 different Cypriot communities would be guaranteed self-rule,to the extend possible...do you realise how difficult a job they had taking into account all the objections and sensitivities of both communities...?There had to be compromises in every aspect...The human rights of the settlers had to be balanced against the human rights of the refugees...The minority TC fears had to be balanced against the expectations of the majority GCs...So would the wishes and interests of the guarantor powers,not to mention the USA...Realistically they could do little else in my opinion...They did their best,and it was obviously not good enough for one of the sides...But suggesting that the UN went into all this trouble to disguise a plan and trick one of the sides is stretching the point just a bit...
I expected a BBF as in Federation and not as in Confederation in the form of "virgin birth, founding states". The GCs were never going to gift any part of Cyprus to become entirely Turkish, and then become partners at the same time. Once again, everyone got out foxed by Papadopoulos. His aim was the EU and nothing else. You can argue that he was as cunning as Turkey and the UK and I would agree with you. He believed that if the AP was so "top heavy" in TCs favour, the RoC would be in the EU and the status quo would continue. He was right.
BirKibrisli wrote:Now here you are stepping into the paranoid territory a la Piratis...
How do you know what would've happened in the future...Do you have a crystal ball? You question my judgement on the motivations of the TCs,following an event in the past,Kikapu,but here you are not shy of making dire predictions about the future...A bit surprising coming from you,because you like to place your arguments firmly on available facts or their interpretations, on every other issue...I say this is pure speculation based on a bit of paranoia and a bit of GC propaganda influence...You cannot use this as an argument to dismiss the merits of the AP...Remember that 27% of the GC voters said YES to the Plan...Do you consider consider these people ignorant fools or traitors to the GC cause???
We have already seen this "movie", Bir. It has nothing to with Piratis or GC propaganda or paranoia. The AP was the same "movie" as the 1959 Zurich Agreements, but modified, still with the same "actors", just under another Title, but the plot was the same. There was no need to see it all the way to the end. The opening scene had already gave the ending away.!
How you ever wondered why today no body who may have supported the AP in 2004 does not support it today, other than Turkey and the "trnc". Well, the clue lies in the fact, that the RoC is now part of the EU and that the provisions in the AP will not fly anymore, hence disguised partition is no longer an option for the "trnc" or Turkey. A agreed partition that would keep Turkey and the "trnc" out of the EU is also not an option for Turkey. Either we are going to find a solution based along the lines that I proposed in my BBF plan which gave the TCs everything, except partition, or that we are going to remain as we are now until something gives.
I do not consider anyone to be a traitor in how they voted. That is their right which is one of the cornerstones of Democracy. Were some misguided in the way they voted....definitely. The question you need to ask yourself is, just how many of the 24% GCs who had voted "YES" on the AP in 2004, would vote "YES" on it today if it remained the same. My guess is, not many. Even our good friend Bananiot would seek changes to it to make it work. As smart and intellectual as Bananiot is, it took him 4 years to come to terms with the AP, that it was in fact a Confederation and not a Federation plan.
BirKibrisli wrote:I believe the answer lies in the emotional nature of the Cypriots..And in their other characteristics...People who live in Cyprus are not like you and me,Kikapu...They are not obsessed with Cyprus problem,and they do not spend much time analysing it like we do here on this Forum...They are ordinary people who live with the problems day to day without giving them much thought...They get their opinions from the media and from family and friends,prettty much like any other country really,and they vote accordingly...There is a bit of herd instinct and a bit of manipulation...
Most people vote with their pocket book, Bir. They look after their own interest and generally do not give a damn about the next person. Many TCs would like the way for things to stay as they are, as far as the north and south goes and form a settlement based on that, which also means keeping most of the GCs land. It is very hard for them to give it back. It always is to have less than what they have now. This has been the fault of the TC leadership in the past making the TCs feel that they are in fact entitled to all the land in the north. If the TCs genuinely want peace and prosperity for themselves, they will need to start playing by the rules of the International Community. That is their only choice. Become part of the western society with what belongs to them, or be isolated by keeping what does not belong to them. They have that choice, or I should say, they had that choice, but they had foolishly gave their voting rights to the settlers, who are now in control of the TCs in what they decide, far more than the GCs would have had under a True Federation plan under BBF.
BirKibrisli wrote:They did feel terribly rejected by the GCs in 2004,believe me...They have long memories,and they were not impressed with their treatment by the EU either..I think all their experineces since 2004 have reinforced their own sense of isolation and mistreatment,and they gave the world the 2-finge salute,if you ask me...
The TCs need to grow up. There was no way that the GCs were going to agree to the AP in 2004. They need to come to terms, that there never a thing as "free lunch". They need to come to terms with that western and democratic societies build wealth and do not take it from others.
BirKibrisli wrote:The latest vote said "Denktas was right,we were ungrateful to Turkey b ack in 2004,we now realise we have only one friend in the world,one protector,and that is Turkey,and we are returning to her safe and reliable bossom"...That is the only explanation i can come up with..You can take it or leave it,mate..
Oh, I thought it was more of the case, that the settlers were now in the position to screw the TCs Royally with their 2:1 advantage over them. Most who had voted for Eroglu, were the settlers. The TCs have made very bad choices in allowing the settlers to come and dominate them in their own "country". They have sold away their political voice, and now are at the mercy of the settlers. What the TCs did was to jump from one fire into another. Maybe the TCs can only survive if we are under the control of others.?? Maybe we are not good at looking after ourselves without having someone dominant to look after us.?? Just maybe, we are not ready for the 21st century yet with True Democracy, Human Rights and International Laws. Maybe we should wait another 100 years to make up our minds, when in the meantime, today's societies would be light years away from us economically and politically. Only time will tell.!
