Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

To the contrary and even worst, in your community you have official political party(s) and with sizable representation, professing partition and /or integration with Turkey, something which cannot be said about the GC community as we do not have any political party that has a policy of Enosis, except some very marginal groupings.

Ok, we have parties that support partition (or should I say we used to have?) but almost all of your parties complain about TCs getting too many rights in 1960 agreements and the Annan plan. Most of your parties support one-man one-vote and I'm not even sure if anyone supports bizonality, maybe except AKEL. So who cares that they're not publicly asking for Enosis? Most of your parties ask for total control of the island with minimum rights to TCs...because they believe that they're the majority and they should be ruling...Same story.

You can do two things in this case. Either do not go to the football stadiums were GC teams play, or go and seat among the Omonia funs who chant that “Cyprus belongs to the Cypriots” and carry Cyprus flags, although you will soon discover that they are not any less lunatics than the others.

Ok, I'll support Omonia if I ever choose to support a GC team in the future.

[Kifeas]

Ok, we have parties that support partition (or should I say we used to have?) but almost all of your parties complain about TCs getting too many rights in 1960 agreements and the Annan plan. Most of your parties support one-man one-vote and I'm not even sure if anyone supports bizonality, maybe except AKEL. So who cares that they're not publicly asking for Enosis? Most of your parties ask for total control of the island with minimum rights to TCs...because they believe that they're the majority and they should be ruling...Same story.

There are still TC parties that support partition and “TRNC” recognition. Eroglou party, which gets up to 30% of votes, is one of them. Serdar Denktash’s party, which gets 12%-13%, is almost split in two on this issue.

All major GC political parties, Akel, DiSy, DiKo, Edek, Edy, Adik (all together having more than 93%-94% popular support,) have a public policy for a solution on the basis of a Bizonal, Bicommunal Federation as per 1977 high level agreements and accept the Annan plan as a basis and /or a reference point for future negotiations. The only two parties that are not very clear yet as to what they are up to are the European party, which was founded recently as a merge between New Horizons and European democracy party and the Green Party. Together they are estimated at around 6%-7% of the popular vote.

None of the GC political parties has in its policy a solution on the basis of a Unitary State with a one-man-one-vote system, except new horizons, which have now merged with ED party and they formed the new European Party.

As for the 1960 agreements, I too believe that the TCs were given excessive rights, more than reasonable. Perhaps if those agreements were more balanced, the GCs wouldn’t have had such a strong motive to ask for changes prematurely and /or to direct their attention so fervently towards Enosis, as a getaway! Sometimes the psychological factor should not be totally ignored when examining historical events.

[garbitsch]

Ok, we have parties that support partition (or should I say we used to have?) but almost all of your parties complain about TCs getting too many rights in 1960 agreements and the Annan plan. Most of your parties support one-man one-vote and I'm not even sure if anyone supports bizonality, maybe except AKEL. So who cares that they're not publicly asking for Enosis? Most of your parties ask for total control of the island with minimum rights to TCs...because they believe that they're the majority and they should be ruling...Same story.

There are still TC parties that support partition and “TRNC” recognition. Eroglou party, which gets up to 30% of votes, is one of them. Serdar Denktash’s party, which gets 12%-13%, is almost split in two on this issue.

All major GC political parties, Akel, DiSy, DiKo, Edek, Edy, Adik (all together having more than 93%-94% popular support,) have a public policy for a solution on the basis of a Bizonal, Bicommunal Federation as per 1977 high level agreements and accept the Annan plan as a basis and /or a reference point for future negotiations. The only two parties that are not very clear yet as to what they are up to are the European party, which was founded recently as a merge between New Horizons and European democracy party and the Green Party. Together they are estimated at around 6%-7% of the popular vote.

None of the GC political parties has in its policy a solution on the basis of a Unitary State with a one-man-one-vote system, except new horizons, which have now merged with ED party and they formed the new European Party.

As for the 1960 agreements, I too believe that the TCs were given excessive rights, more than reasonable. Perhaps if those agreements were more balanced, the GCs wouldn’t have had such a strong motive to ask for changes prematurely and /or to direct their attention so fervently towards Enosis, as a getaway! Sometimes the psychological factor should not be totally ignored when examining historical events.

Let's not dream. G.Cs had no faith in the Republic. They used it as a step for enosis. We all know this well known fact. Don't trick us. Don't put the blame on "the excessive rights to TCs" for the events initiated by the G.Cs.

[MicAtCyp]

Do you want me to make a list of all the possible slogans that football fans chant rhythmically in GC stadiums when their teams play each other? From curses to the other side’s mothers, sisters, to personal insults and abuses against the referees and the players of the other team re their sexual orientation, their dignity, etc, etc. Are we going now to take everything that those lunatics say at face value!

I have a friend who told me the following: "I don't go to the stadium to watch the match.I go to shout and curse.The more I do the more I am releived and relaxed.I need this.Without it my week becomes very tense"

[detailer]

deleted by author

[metecyp]

Perhaps if those agreements were more balanced, the GCs wouldn’t have had such a strong motive to ask for changes prematurely and /or to direct their attention so fervently towards Enosis, as a getaway!

Kifeas, Enosis was not a getaway...it was an ultimate goal of majority of GCs since 1930s and establishment of RoC was viewed as nothing but a stepping stone for Enosis. There was no willingess on the GC side to accept what was signed in 1959-1960. That's why there was a strong motive to ask for changes and then abolish the RoC altogether in order to declare Enosis. So please let's not fool ourselves here.

Secondly, if you still believe that the TC rights in the RoC were excessive, then how the hell can you talk about bizonal bicommunal republic? Despite all of these "excessive" rights, TCs were excluded from RoC for 40 years! Obviously, we'll ask for something more concrete, something that won't stay on paper. If you cannot stomach the RoC, how can you even talk about something better something more concrete??

[cypezokyli]

kifeas i think metecyp is right arguing that there is a contradiction in your arguments

Secondly, if you still believe that the TC rights in the RoC were excessive, then how the hell can you talk about bizonal bicommunal republic?

secondly

All major GC political parties, Akel, DiSy, DiKo, Edek, Edy, Adik (all together having more than 93%-94% popular support,) have a public policy for a solution on the basis of a Bizonal, Bicommunal Federation as per 1977 high level agreements and accept the Annan plan as a basis and /or a reference point for future negotiations. The only two parties that are not very clear yet as to what they are up to are the European party, which was founded recently as a merge between New Horizons and European democracy party and the Green Party. Together they are estimated at around 6%-7% of the popular vote.

None of the GC political parties has in its policy a solution on the basis of a Unitary State with a one-man-one-vote system, except new horizons, which have now merged with ED party and they formed the new European Party.

i would disagree with u on regard to the gc parties. accepting bizonal bicommunal federation can be interprated in a thousand different ways. its like what all of them promised for the last 30 years - a fair and viable solution which means in reality : nothing. there is nothing more vague than describing a solution fair or just. in sth more rigid which was the Aplan:
dysi said yes
akel said no to say yes later (whatever that means)
diko edek and the rest of the gang reject the philosophy of it
pap changes his public opinion according to who is around. if europeans are around he accepts the plan as a basis, if he is in cyprus he demands dramatic changes

to my tc friends
1. the ENOSIS dream is gone. dead. kaput. it doesnt exists anymore. as i dont have a clue what u think i can at least tell u what we think. at least perhaps we ll manage to put an end on this constant idea of knowing what the other side thinks. (and thats what we both do on this forum)
20 july 1974 showed the stupidity of 15 july 1974, and the ENOSIS dream is simply not there. all kind of other nationalism exists (u can accusse us for that if u want)but there is no other way to say it.:NOBODY wants to unite with greece anymore.

2. the funs and what they say. i would propose gustav le bon
"the psycology of the masses"
here is the online version of the book
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext96/tcrwd10.txt
but the real book is much preffered

a couple of quotes:

The most striking peculiarity presented by a psychological crowd
is the following: Whoever be the individuals that compose it,
however like or unlike be their mode of life, their occupations,
their character, or their intelligence, the fact that they have
been transformed into a crowd puts them in possession of a sort
of collective mind which makes them feel, think, and act in a
manner quite different from that in which each individual of them
would feel, think, and act were he in a state of isolation

In crowds it is
stupidity and not mother-wit that is accumulated.

that the crowd
is always intellectually inferior to the isolated individual, but
that, from the point of view of feelings and of the acts these
feelings provoke, the crowd may, according to circumstances, he
better or worse than the individual.

a crowd being anonymous, and in consequence
irresponsible, the sentiment of responsibility which always
controls individuals disappears entirely.

and many more interesting stuff which can explain besides the behavior of football funs many more more serious issues

[erolz]

1. the ENOSIS dream is gone. dead. kaput. it doesnt exists anymore. as i dont have a clue what u think i can at least tell u what we think. at least perhaps we ll manage to put an end on this constant idea of knowing what the other side thinks. (and thats what we both do on this forum)
20 july 1974 showed the stupidity of 15 july 1974, and the ENOSIS dream is simply not there. all kind of other nationalism exists (u can accusse us for that if u want)but there is no other way to say it.:NOBODY wants to unite with greece anymore.

I and I believe most TC know and accept that enosis is no longer an ideal persued by GC today. Our problems are mainly with 'revsionist' versions of history that say ENOSIS was never really the GC desire, all they ever really wanted was indpendance and corrolory arguments like Makarios abandoned the persuit of ENOSIS in 1960 (or 1963) as has been claimed.

I concerns _today_ are that GC today are still persuing an objective of a GC run and controlled cyprus where TC as a community have no rights to any degree of politcial equality - persuing such either 'openly and honestly' or 'by stealth / back door'

2. the funs and what they say. i would propose gustav le bon
"the psycology of the masses"
here is the online version of the book
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext96/tcrwd10.txt
but the real book is much preffered

On this front (ish) there is an excellent (imo) article on the cyprus conflict website (by a GC btw) under the title of "The Politics of Memory and Forgetting" which can be found here

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/papadakis.diss.htm

[cypezokyli]

erolz
thanks for the link

Our problems are mainly with 'revsionist' versions of history that say ENOSIS was never really the GC desire, all they ever really wanted was indpendance and corrolory arguments like Makarios abandoned the persuit of ENOSIS in 1960 (or 1963) as has been claimed.

ofcource ENOSIS was a gc desire. even though today, with todays knowledge a number of us accept that the ENOSIS dream was wrong i really dont know how it could be otherwise back then. with the education they had back then, the influence of the church , the situation of the world at the time and the absence of a politics tradition its difficult for me to say that if i lved back then i would have thought otherwise.
in any case today, i can say that that was wrong. Apologies

i would really like to know what was in makarios head. perhaps after 1963, even if it was not enosis, for sure no power sharing with tc. any of the two is possible, and i guess for the tc there is no difference between the two

I concerns _today_ are that GC today are still persuing an objective of a GC run and controlled cyprus where TC as a community have no rights to any degree of politcial equality - persuing such either 'openly and honestly' or 'by stealth / back door'

this turns to the endless power sharing thing. u know all that . lets dont get into it. besides there is a thread just for this. u know political equality and democracy stuff.
but it can be indeed that some are hiding behind the democracy arguement to control the tc.
but do you really think everyone believing in this democracy stuff has really the aim to control the tc?
mmm
on second thought
better not answer this one bc u will do what i dont really like. and that is:
i know what u think
and i guess u will inevitably get answers of people knowing what u think

[erolz]

erolz
thanks for the link

and belated thanks to you for yours

... i really dont know how it could be otherwise back then. with the education they had back then, the influence of the church , the situation of the world at the time and the absence of a politics tradition its difficult for me to say that if i lved back then i would have thought otherwise.

I undestand and acept this as well. For me the desire for ENOSIS back then was as you say not 'unresonable' for most ordinary GC to hold given the situation. For me however it was this desire linked to the ways the persuit of this desire were persued that are the core of the problem. That is to say that if the desire had been as strong for enosis but there had been an absolute refusla on part of GC and especially GC leaders of the time to not use violence and illeagites and deception and insincerity to achieve it , then the mess we are in today would be no where near as severe. I would also add that this is true in reverse imo.

in any case today, i can say that that was wrong. Apologies

And I can not over emphasise how much such simple appologise mean to me as a TC and help mean 'balance' my fear of potential GC political domination in any future settlement. Thank you for this. Thank you alot.

i would really like to know what was in makarios head. perhaps after 1963, even if it was not enosis, for sure no power sharing with tc. any of the two is possible, and i guess for the tc there is no difference between the two

There is a differnce but both ideals were and are unacceptable for TC. So in that sense it makes little differences.

but do you really think everyone believing in this democracy stuff has really the aim to control the tc?

No I do not think it is true of all that promote such ideas, but as you point out I have no real ability of distinguishing which it is true of and which it is not. As far as some GC will argue and argue reciferously that their view is simply a matter of fundamental democratic principle in both theroy and actual practice and ignore totaly the arguments that this is not the case -this (naturaly?) tends to make me fear the 'worse' of the tow possible motivations is the case and not the 'better' one.

mmm
on second thought
better not answer this

Sorry could not resist