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3,000 TCs on the side of Trabzonspor!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Viewpoint » Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:29 am

Piratis wrote:Interesting that the ones that complain are the ones that grabbed 1/3rd of Cyprus and named it "TurkishRNC", and that now they want a Turkish component state.

If a part of Cyprus can be Turkish, then with the same logic the whole Cyprus can be Greek.

Levent has the right to complain about this. But not the great majority of TCs that support the "TRNC".


You tired that one before and look where it got you, a divided island. This comment reveals your hidden agenda TCs in a Greek Cyprus... forget it.
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:01 am

metecyp wrote: Thanks Kifeas for posting this here. I read the Turkish version and I wanted to translate it for the forum but I didn't have time. I'm glad you found the English version of it.

You are welcome! I just made a –not so strict- translation from the Greek version published in “Politis” newspaper.
metecyp wrote:So what do GC forum members think about Sener Levent's article? Especially MicAtCyp, you always love to quote Levent when he talks in favour of your side...now he's against your side..what do you have to say? Do you think we're still being greedy for asking some protections after the sea of Greek flags in the stadium?? I'm curious to know. Or am I being brain-washed again by saying these things? Let me know.

Before even seen Levent's article, I had already raised my concerns over this phenomenon, in an earlier posting.

What I would say is the following:

  1. It is a well-known fact that a number of fans from a certain group of teams such as Anorthosis, Apoel and Apollon, choose to express themselves in stadiums with the use of the Greek flag. There is another group of teams such as Omonia, Salamina and Ael (to some extent,) that choose to express them selves with the use of the Cypriot flag. That derives from the political inclinations that the above two groups of teams and the majority of their fans do have. The former are geared more towards right wing political ideologies and parties, and the later towards more leftwing ones.
  2. It is a well-known fact that there is no more any GC political party or even organisation -except some very marginal groups- that nowadays supports or professes union with Greece. This issue is non-existent, even as a thought. Even the leadership of the Church, which in the past used to be the pioneers of the Enosis movement, doesn’t subscribe to this idea any more.
  3. Why then the use of the Greek flag?
    It simply relates to the need to express the idea of being part of the greater Hellenic cultural world. It is a fact that the Greek Cypriot society does belong to the greater more general Hellenic cultural world, in the same way that this can be said about the Turkish Cypriot society. In the absences of any other more convenient mean to express this need, many GCs find the use of the Greek flag as perhaps the only option.
  4. Why then the use of the RoC flag?
    Those that choose the use the Cyprus flag want to express the need for strengthening the independence and sovereignty of the RoC as well as it’s status as separate entity from Greece and any other country. They believe that this enhances the chances for a united country along the lines of a multicultural in its composition but and single in its citizenship (nationality) country, separate from any “motherland” influences and interventions.

In a nutshell, both flags are used in a purely symbolic notion. The use of the Greek flag doesn’t reveal the existence of any hidden political agenda by anyone. The slogan “Cyprus is Greek,” which was heard by some section of the fans, 2-3 times towards the end of the game, doesn’t not mean too much either and I would say it was not taken seriously (in its political dimension) even by those who were chanting it. I would think it probably came up as a form of negative reaction towards the waving of some Turkish flags that made their appearance on the TC stands after the Turkish team’s goal. You should know that to the same extend that you become angry in view of the Greek flag in Cyprus, GCs get equally -if not more- angry as well, in view of the Turkish flag!
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:41 pm

Kifeas
It is a well-known fact that there is no more any GC political party or even organisation -except some very marginal groups- that nowadays supports or professes union with Greece. This issue is non-existent, even as a thought. Even the leadership of the Church, which in the past used to be the pioneers of the Enosis movement, doesn’t subscribe to this idea any more.


The use of the Greek flag doesn’t reveal the existence of any hidden political agenda by anyone. The slogan “Cyprus is Greek,” which was heard by some section of the fans, 2-3 times towards the end of the game, doesn’t not mean too much either and I would say it was not taken seriously (in its political dimension) even by those who were chanting it.


says Kifeas, why is it I find it very difficult to believe what you are saying Im sure other TCs feel the same, your attempt at dispelling our genuine concerns only goes to strengthen the feeling of wanting to distance ourselves from a community which has still to mature enough to not hurl verbal abuse which was the same in the 50 60 and 2005 seems to me nothing much has changed the undertones are still evident and it would not take much to ignite the feelings of hate and anti TCs which appear to fester beneth the exterior of many GCs, the need and lomging for revenge against Atilla as you call it and TCs is clearly more alive today than it ever was due to the events of 1974..

Those that choose the use the Cyprus flag want to express the need for strengthening the independence and sovereignty of the RoC as well as it’s status as separate entity from Greece and any other country. They believe that this enhances the chances for a united country along the lines of a multicultural in its composition but and single in its citizenship (nationality) country, separate from any “motherland” influences and interventions.


ısnt this what we shoudl be seeing to encourage us towards reconcilling our differences with the south and trying to build a united Cyprus?? its obvious that the fanatical element it alive and kicking in the south...do we want union with a time bomb waiting to go off??


I would think it probably came up as a form of negative reaction towards the waving of some Turkish flags that made their appearance on the TC stands after the Turkish team’s goal. You should know that to the same extend that you become angry in view of the Greek flag in Cyprus, GCs get equally -if not more- angry as well, in view of the Turkish flag!


Very feable excuse Kifeas Trabzonspor is a Turkish team so the Turkish flag is warranted but the last time I checked Anorthiosis is a GC team not Greek should there be more "RoC" flags than Greek??

Yiannis
also read the article in Greek and thats when i decided to change my signature to "Cyprus is not Greek" in order to answer back to those GCs that dont think before they talk or shout. In my opinion saying Cyprus is Greek is non valid and above all offending to our TC compatriots.Cyprus since 1960 want it or not its an independent nation.Saying that and getting into the EU you cannot just start shouting Cyprus is Greek because simply is not part of Greece Republic.
As for the Greek flags in the game i certainly feel sorry for my TC compatriots having to see their GC compatriots carrying that flag and most importantly even shouting "Cyprus is Greek". If it was just carrying greek flags then it would have been much more better.
My opinion which i stated many times in this forum is that Greek flags have no place outside goverment and public buildings.Now if you are a GC and u feel so strongly about having the Greek heritage then fine put ur flag outside ur home if you want but in no way does a Greek flag belong to public place in RoCyprus.


Thank god for the sane people who can see certain issues for what they are and acknowledge in clear terms what is wrong and what is right, thank you Yiannis. :wink:
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:33 pm

Garbitsch wrote: It's not the right of people holding flags that is questioned, it is the mentality of some that has always been leading us to deadlocks. These people are not only in your side, but we also have lots of them. Yet there are not much Turkish Cypriot left who would take the Turkish flag and go to watch a football game.


Could you please elaborate on that?Do you mean they carry Trnc flags?

**********************
The GSP stadium has one RoC flag flying and one Greek. Don't know why it is so, I think maybe it's because of 1960 constitution saying that communal buildings like churches, schools etc can fly Greek or Turkish flags.
Frankly speaking when they said they would not allow any banners to enter the stadium I felthappy and thought they would not allow flags either.I also hoped they would remove the Greek flag from the pole.Nothing happened...If you notice I was the first one who raised the matter of the Greek flags at the game and I also put a sad smilie next to it.
Flags are a very power symbol. National flags make people proud.Why the Gcs hold Greek flags? In my opinion it's because the RoC flag does not make them proud.It relates to nothing proud other than loss,suffer, and half an occupied Cyprus....However personally I would prefer to hold no flag at all.I don't feel like holding the RoC flag, nor the Greek flag.

About the matter of some people trying to draw conclusions as to whether we can live together. I beleive there is a good part of GCs (about 25%) who are ready to respect the TCs as compatriots of a Cypriot State under any circumstances. Another 10% who will always think of the TCs negatively. The vast majority waits for the solution and then will take sides. I am in that vast majority. If the solution will be good then I will not be surprised if 80-90% of the GCs are perfect friends and feel the TCs as real compatriots. If it will be bad (i.e most GCs not returning and at the same time losing their properties) then we will end up with 75% of GCs hating the TCs.In summary whether we can live together or not depends on the solution.The property matter is extremely important, and I beleive will be the number one criterion.

PS. I hope I will not be asked to show proof of statistics.The numbers are my estimate. Those who doubt please concentrate on my point then rather than the numbers.
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:07 pm

Viewpoint! Why you act angrily re the issue of Greek flags used by GCs? I know you are not angry! I know you are very happy! I know you are happy for the same reason, as Sener Levent assured us in his article, that Hasan Keskin is happy!
Congratulations Viewpoint!
You are one of the winners of last Tuesday’s football game!
The GCs that carried the Greek flags in the stadium donated to you this victory!


and I am serious more than any other time in what I have said above!
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:12 pm

Kifeas
Viewpoint! Why you act angrily re the issue of Greek flags used by GCs? I know you are not angry! I know you are very happy!


take deep breaths and count to 10 my friend, you are contradicting yourself???am i angry or happy you tell me you seem to know more than me about how i feel?
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:28 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Kifeas
Viewpoint! Why you act angrily re the issue of Greek flags used by GCs? I know you are not angry! I know you are very happy!


take deep breaths and count to 10 my friend, you are contradicting yourself???am i angry or happy you tell me you seem to know more than me about how i feel?


Sener Levent told us in his article, and I have no reason not to believe him, that Hasan Keskin, the King of the grey wolfs as he described him, is very happy!

In view of this fact, I cannot see why you also wouldn't be happy!

Are you someone who believes in re-unification? No!
Aren't you someone who participates in this forum not in order to build bridges but only to demolish them?

Aren't you someone who believes and promotes partition?
So does Hasan Keskin!

If he is happy, then you are also happy!
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:34 pm

Kifeas would that be NO as in OXI??????


On this occassion your comments dont even warrant a response.

You can believe what you want about me, I dont have a problem with that its your right and a reflection of your intelligence but you should really try harder to understand my comments.
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:33 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Kifeas would that be NO as in OXI??????


On this occassion your comments dont even warrant a response.

You can believe what you want about me, I dont have a problem with that its your right and a reflection of your intelligence but you should really try harder to understand my comments.


No! I do not need to try harder! Your comments speak all by themselves! Also what is hidden behind them is more than obvious!

When you see Mr. Serdar Denktash on Monday morning, tell him to PM me! I will explain to him how good you are in what you are doing and I will suggest to him to put you on the payroll of his "foreign ministry." It is a shame people like you are not on the front line of the "TRNC" and pro-partition propaganda machinery! Of course only if you do not already happen be on such a payroll! Never the less and in such a case I will just complement your excellent work effort to him and tell him to have you in mind for a future promotion!

If there will be any too long “TRNC” future of course, something I do not wish and I do not see!
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Postby erolz » Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:44 pm

Kifeas wrote:
No! I do not need to try harder! Your comments speak all by themselves! Also what is hidden behind them is more than obvious!


It seems to me that we can all (and do all to some degree) doubt the sincerity of what people say and imply and state the existance of 'hidden agendas'. I do not however see how such an approach can ever take us forward? I would also point out that it is easy (especially so in eltronicaly mediated mediums) to misconstrue and misunderstand , either with intent or without, the meanings and intentions of others and very very difficult to do the reverse.
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