Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

[...] Next we have the problem of the properties they acquired, nobody would be willing to return anything, so what humane face are we supposed to show them, for each one staying ANOTHER GC refugee loses everything, stays refugee for ever...

[...]

Just for the sake of argument, there is a logical solution to the above problem. Settlers as people could be permitted to stay, but not in the property they currently ocupy if this is GC property. They would thus have to be rehoused, with new housing built for them, if necessary.

Tim sorry but who is going to do that? The GCs again? And what about the demographics do you think the GCs will accept any solution when TCs+settlers=33%.?? And if you don't believe me just go back to Anan Plan voting and count the votes as announced by the UN to see they are in fact 33%. Let aside the Turkish students, and the seasonal workers.

Furthermore the TCs are all day fighting with them, there is a problem in going along with those people, they are not British who adapt easily, don't you see that at the occupied they separate them, they put them in different villages so that they don't beat each other? If the Tcs are not going along fine with them do you really have any hopes the GCs will?

No, no,no, the solution to this problem LIES 100% on TURKEY, Turkey must do what she MUST DO according to international LAW and the treaty of GENEVA.

As I said, this was just an exercise in logic for the sake of argument. I am not saying that this should, or will, happen.

What you say may apply to the older generation. However, I have seen for myself that when Turkish Cypriots and the local born children of settlers go to school together, they get on well and form lasting friendships. In fact, you cannot tell them apart in the way you can their parents. There are plenty of marriages between people of Turkish Cypriot origin and second-generation settlers, too. The old truths are changing.

BTW I once looked through the Geneva Convention, and while I could find a provision stating that it is illegal for a state to transfer population to an ocupied territory, I have been unable to locate a rule saying that such a state has a duty to repatriate those people. As far as I know this has never been tested in international law before; it seems to me more to be one of those enduring Greek Cypriot myths that Turkey has aduty to wave a magic wand and the settlers will all disappear in a puff of smoke.

As you know the 4th Geneva Convection contains thousands of "Shall" type phrases including of course the following without telling (as you correctly pointed out) what should happen in case of violation.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

The above automatically loads Turkey with full responsibility and imo it is obvious this responsibility for remedy/restoration has to satisfy the one who got damaged by that violation. In case Turkey thinks she is not oblidged to repatriate her settlers then there are International courts to decide.

I agree with you some of the way. The question is as to the precise form that the remedy should take. I think it could just as easily be argued that since the state of Turkey is the guilty party, she has to to make financial reparations to Cyprus to cover the cost of solving the problem. If you argue that the correct remedy is to chuck all of the settlers out, and maybe stick a few euros in their pocket on the way to make them happy, this is surely punishing people who, by no fault of their own, were born in Cyprus of parents who migrated from Turkey for an offence which was actually commited by a state and not individuals, this can hardly be said to be equitable.

[Viewpoint]

The same could be said for GCs their arrogance and intrangience is well know which has and will continue to take them down the wrong path to permanent loss. We see you as you see the Turks before reacting just think about what I am saying before you explode with your standard responses.

[Tim Drayton]

Tim, the Ottomans also thought like you a few centuries ago when they had a vast empire.

I am not saying that what I say will certainly happen, I just say that it is a possibility, and the only way to free Cyprus from the Turks if/when it happens, and the best thing we can do now is to start preparing so we will be ready for when the chance will be given to us.

If you have a way to free Cyprus from the Turks faster and easier then please let me know.

If, like me, you distinguish between the Turkish Cypriots, who are citizens of the Republic according to Annex D of the Treaty of Establishment, and Turks from Turkey, then the answer is reunification under the only plan on the table, a BBF, in which case I believe that, if the federal state begins to function well, the loyalty of Turkish Cypriots will in time move away from Turkey and in favour of Cyprus.

[Jerry]

When I attended the Orams trial with Bill C. I asked myself "how can intelligent woman like Cherie Blair (a human rights lawyer) possibly support the right of thieves to keep their stolen goods?" Her mere presence at that trial, representing Orams, should have given a clue of the subsequent ECHR ruling. I read through some human rights legislation after the IPC ruling to see if what the ECHR judgment was in accord with it and I regret to say it is. Without going into detail, I can’t remember it all anyway, the gist is, someone who has established a home in a particular place, has, in terms of human rights, a greater right than the previous occupant. Legal ownership is another matter but in this case human rights appear to, according to the ECHR, take precedence. As I said at the time of the ruling, it is unfair that a carpetbagger/settler who has just taken possession of "his" place in the sun has a greater right than the real GC owner, but that's the only way the Court's ruling can be interpreted - the GC gets compensation the carpetbagger/settler stays.

There is no doubt that Turkey has broken international law by colonising the north but we could wait another 35 years and still the settlers would be there - in much greater numbers. The longer the Cyprus problem goes on the less territory will be returned. If we "stick to our principles" and wait for Turkey to leave or be kicked out of the north we will probably be disappointed. The attachment to the north will diminish with subsequent GC generations; they will not thank us for sticking to "our principles" that lost us our rightful share of the north for ever.

[repulsewarrior]

...of course if we cave in, it will not serve Humanity, Ignorance will gain.

that is why i suggest enclaves and a voting system which allows for every citizen to vote in exactly the same manner.

National Assemblies under the Charter of a Federal State serve our needs to demonstrate Bicommunality: an identity which is as a Person, as well as an Individual.

[Jerry]

...of course if we cave in, it will not serve Humanity, Ignorance will gain.

that is why i suggest enclaves and a voting system which allows for every citizen to vote in exactly the same manner.

National Assemblies under the Charter of a Federal State serve our needs to demonstrate Bicommunality: an identity which is as a Person, as well as an Individual.

Nice theory RW but Turkey has got its base in the north, why would it weaken its hold to please the GCs. It's too late, why would Greek Cypriots want bicommunality with mainlanders? You may call it caving in , I call it facing the reality of a situation that will only get worse - unless of course we can persuade the Americans to turn on Turkey the way it turned on Sadam Hussein, somehow I think the odds are against that happening.

[repulsewarrior]

...Turkey craves International esteem. it would not be pleasing the GC's, but her global partners. and if it worked in Cyprus, it may serve as the template which solves the problems she has within her own State.

[Jerry]

...Turkey craves International esteem. it would not be pleasing the GC's, but her global partners. and if it worked in Cyprus, it may serve as the template which solves the problems she has within her own State.

The Turkish Government may crave international esteem but the Generals want a base on Cyprus to "protect the southern flank" Gifting the north to these military dinosaurs will probably keep them quiet for the forseeable future. Erdogan would risk another coup if he ordered all Turkish troops out of Cyprus.

[repulsewarrior]

..this fear of the Generals is well founded. with the recognition of Cyprus as a State, it can be welcomed into the alliance (NATO) that has proven so valuable to their own defence. Erdogan has exposed a cabal, as such it is impotent to act unseen, the ball is in his court, and a movement toward Europe is still his objective. the Army and the Government are not at odds in terms of Turkey's security, only that the tactics must change.

[Jerry]

..this fear of the Generals is well founded. with the recognition of Cyprus as a State, it can be welcomed into the alliance (NATO) that has proven so valuable to their own defence. Erdogan has exposed a cabal, as such it is impotent to act unseen, the ball is in his court, and a movement toward Europe is still his objective. the Army and the Government are not at odds in terms of Turkey's security, only that the tactics must change.

The problem is RW that "tactics", other than those used in the deployment of troops, is far too complicated for the dinosaurs to comprehend.