Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

The discussion here confirms what I said: The Cyprus problem will be solved only with a change in the balance of power. Only when this happens we will be able to take back our lands and solve all the other problems (e.g. Settlers). In the same way that Turkey took our land and removed the native population replacing them with Settlers, we will take back our land and send those Settlers back to Turkey.

The only (huge) difference will be that we will be liberating what is ours, while what the Turks did was occupying something which does not belong to them.

Until the balance of power changes what we have to do is two things:

1) Maintain our rights over the whole of Cyprus by not singing any capitulation agreement that will grant the north to the Turks.
2) Do what we can so that change of balance of power can come earlier, by keeping Turkey out of EU and helping them to move more toward Islam, by helping the Kurdish leaders promote the idea of an independent Kurdistan among the Kurdish people, and by making our relationship with other countries stronger.

The idea that the Cyprus Problem can be solved with negotiations is an illusion. The Turks took that part of our island by war and they are not going to give it up unless there is another war where they will lose. I wish there was another way to liberate our island, but unfortunately there is not.

They don't need our help to do that Piratis. In fact this is what they are threatening everybody with. That they will turn East towards their Turanist/panturkism dream. There are almost a billion Turkic populations around as you know.

This scares the shit both the EU and the Americans. They can barely tolerate the muslim generated terrorism, can you imagine adding to that a Turkic one?

And that is when the Americans, Russians and the Chinese will all turn against the Turks Add the revolting Kurds in to the mix (who will be then armed by the super powers), and there you have a possible way for the change in the balance of power.

[Tim Drayton]

[...] Next we have the problem of the properties they acquired, nobody would be willing to return anything, so what humane face are we supposed to show them, for each one staying ANOTHER GC refugee loses everything, stays refugee for ever...

[...]

Just for the sake of argument, there is a logical solution to the above problem. Settlers as people could be permitted to stay, but not in the property they currently ocupy if this is GC property. They would thus have to be rehoused, with new housing built for them, if necessary.

There could be an easier solution: Turkey offering to those Settlers better housing, and other incentives to return to Turkey. Turkey gave to those people incentives to leave their homeland and come to Cyprus, and the reverse is just as easy if Turkey wanted.

So the problem are not the Settlers per se (or the TCs or anything else for that matter), the problem is that Turkey wants to maintain control over at least half of the island (or even the whole of it, with some Annan plan kind of "solution").

Therefore the only way to solve the Cyprus problem is if Turkey is forced to abandon her ambitions for Cyprus.

As you say, "If Turkey wanted."

So, why should Turkey want this?

She does not want this or anything else that will help Cyprus to be freed from them. What they want is to maintain full control of the north and if possible expand their control over the whole island. And this is exactly the problem. When this problem is solved everything else (settlers, property etc) will be solved as well very quickly. And the only way to solve what is the root of the problem is with a change in the balance of power. No other way exists.

A change in the balance of power is not something that can happen easily or soon, but believe me, it can happen more easily and faster than negotiating a solution, since a negotiated solution is something that can never happen under the current balance of power, unless we capitulate and we give to Turkey even more than what she illegally occupies today, making our problem bigger.

Sorry, all I can see is the balance of power shifting in favour of Turkey. Nobody is helping Turkey more than died-in-the-wool bigots like yourself, but you will never understand that.

[Tim Drayton]

The discussion here confirms what I said: The Cyprus problem will be solved only with a change in the balance of power. Only when this happens we will be able to take back our lands and solve all the other problems (e.g. Settlers). In the same way that Turkey took our land and removed the native population replacing them with Settlers, we will take back our land and send those Settlers back to Turkey.

The only (huge) difference will be that we will be liberating what is ours, while what the Turks did was occupying something which does not belong to them.

Until the balance of power changes what we have to do is two things:

1) Maintain our rights over the whole of Cyprus by not singing any capitulation agreement that will grant the north to the Turks.
2) Do what we can so that change of balance of power can come earlier, by keeping Turkey out of EU and helping them to move more toward Islam, by helping the Kurdish leaders promote the idea of an independent Kurdistan among the Kurdish people, and by making our relationship with other countries stronger.

The idea that the Cyprus Problem can be solved with negotiations is an illusion. The Turks took that part of our island by war and they are not going to give it up unless there is another war where they will lose. I wish there was another way to liberate our island, but unfortunately there is not.

They don't need our help to do that Piratis. In fact this is what they are threatening everybody with. That they will turn East towards their Turanist/panturkism dream. There are almost a billion Turkic populations around as you know.

This scares the shit both the EU and the Americans. They can barely tolerate the muslim generated terrorism, can you imagine adding to that a Turkic one?

And that is when the Americans, Russians and the Chinese will all turn against the Turks Add the revolting Kurds in to the mix (who will be then armed by the super powers), and there you have a possible way for the change in the balance of power.

That's it? You are just left with wishful thinking?

[Piratis]

Tim, the Ottomans also thought like you a few centuries ago when they had a vast empire.

I am not saying that what I say will certainly happen, I just say that it is a possibility, and the only way to free Cyprus from the Turks if/when it happens, and the best thing we can do now is to start preparing so we will be ready for when the chance will be given to us.

If you have a way to free Cyprus from the Turks faster and easier then please let me know.

[georgios100]

Yeah right the Charity man has spoken. Let's ethnically cleanse the GCs steal their lands and properties donate them to trashy settles (hey they are lovely creatures because after all they are Turks like Mr Charity man) and then tell the GCs to hey "see through race" they are ordinary human beings, be realistic, let them stay...

Yeah right. The turks just woke up one morning and decided to invade. The one thing TCs feared was that they had become sitting ducks in the enclaves once the GC NG acquired Tanks. One must learn to analyse the risks involved in ones actions.
I thought that you greeks were good at maths. What went wrong then? or was that not part of finite analysis calculations. Instead of reducing risk you increased it to infinity.
Work that one out.

Pyro; are you suggesting that the forcible acquisition of GC land and homes was premeditated? I think not. There were miscalculations definitely, and the failure of the following 'peace talks' led to these acquisitions. There were decent refugees who would not touch a single book in the libraries of the 'deserted' homes of Greek Cyps. For a number of years they waited patiently till the 'peace talks' broke down. After that we know what happened when it was free for all and the northern admin mi-appropriated all the GC land and 'illegally' sold them of. We know that and I suspect that you know that. Now we have the settlers, whether we like it or not and as Tim says they seem part of the northern demography, and as time passes it will be nigh impossible to dislodge them.

In 1957, Fazıl Küçük proposed a map of Cyprus, dividing the island in two parts. The map indicated a straight line starting south of Famagusta and stretched thru to south of Morphu. I will post this map tomorrow.

And yes, Pyro is right. It was premeditated all along.

Georgios100

[Pyrpolizer]

[...] Next we have the problem of the properties they acquired, nobody would be willing to return anything, so what humane face are we supposed to show them, for each one staying ANOTHER GC refugee loses everything, stays refugee for ever...

[...]

Just for the sake of argument, there is a logical solution to the above problem. Settlers as people could be permitted to stay, but not in the property they currently ocupy if this is GC property. They would thus have to be rehoused, with new housing built for them, if necessary.

Tim sorry but who is going to do that? The GCs again? And what about the demographics do you think the GCs will accept any solution when TCs+settlers=33%.?? And if you don't believe me just go back to Anan Plan voting and count the votes as announced by the UN to see they are in fact 33%. Let aside the Turkish students, and the seasonal workers.

Furthermore the TCs are all day fighting with them, there is a problem in going along with those people, they are not British who adapt easily, don't you see that at the occupied they separate them, they put them in different villages so that they don't beat each other? If the Tcs are not going along fine with them do you really have any hopes the GCs will?

No, no,no, the solution to this problem LIES 100% on TURKEY, Turkey must do what she MUST DO according to international LAW and the treaty of GENEVA.

As I said, this was just an exercise in logic for the sake of argument. I am not saying that this should, or will, happen.

What you say may apply to the older generation. However, I have seen for myself that when Turkish Cypriots and the local born children of settlers go to school together, they get on well and form lasting friendships. In fact, you cannot tell them apart in the way you can their parents. There are plenty of marriages between people of Turkish Cypriot origin and second-generation settlers, too. The old truths are changing.

BTW I once looked through the Geneva Convention, and while I could find a provision stating that it is illegal for a state to transfer population to an ocupied territory, I have been unable to locate a rule saying that such a state has a duty to repatriate those people. As far as I know this has never been tested in international law before; it seems to me more to be one of those enduring Greek Cypriot myths that Turkey has aduty to wave a magic wand and the settlers will all disappear in a puff of smoke.

As you know the 4th Geneva Convection contains thousands of "Shall" type phrases including of course the following without telling (as you correctly pointed out) what should happen in case of violation.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

The above automatically loads Turkey with full responsibility and imo it is obvious this responsibility for remedy/restoration has to satisfy the one who got damaged by that violation. In case Turkey thinks she is not oblidged to repatriate her settlers then there are International courts to decide.

[georgios100]

Yeah right the Charity man has spoken. Let's ethnically cleanse the GCs steal their lands and properties donate them to trashy settles (hey they are lovely creatures because after all they are Turks like Mr Charity man) and then tell the GCs to hey "see through race" they are ordinary human beings, be realistic, let them stay...

Yeah right. The turks just woke up one morning and decided to invade. The one thing TCs feared was that they had become sitting ducks in the enclaves once the GC NG acquired Tanks. One must learn to analyse the risks involved in ones actions.
I thought that you greeks were good at maths. What went wrong then? or was that not part of finite analysis calculations. Instead of reducing risk you increased it to infinity.
Work that one out.

Pyro; are you suggesting that the forcible acquisition of GC land and homes was premeditated? I think not. There were miscalculations definitely, and the failure of the following 'peace talks' led to these acquisitions. There were decent refugees who would not touch a single book in the libraries of the 'deserted' homes of Greek Cyps. For a number of years they waited patiently till the 'peace talks' broke down. After that we know what happened when it was free for all and the northern admin mi-appropriated all the GC land and 'illegally' sold them of. We know that and I suspect that you know that. Now we have the settlers, whether we like it or not and as Tim says they seem part of the northern demography, and as time passes it will be nigh impossible to dislodge them.

In 1957, Fazıl Küçük proposed a map of Cyprus, dividing the island in two parts. The map indicated a straight line starting south of Famagusta and stretched thru to south of Morphu. I will post this map tomorrow.

And yes, Pyro is right. It was premeditated all along.

Georgios100

[Pyrpolizer]

The discussion here confirms what I said: The Cyprus problem will be solved only with a change in the balance of power. Only when this happens we will be able to take back our lands and solve all the other problems (e.g. Settlers). In the same way that Turkey took our land and removed the native population replacing them with Settlers, we will take back our land and send those Settlers back to Turkey.

The only (huge) difference will be that we will be liberating what is ours, while what the Turks did was occupying something which does not belong to them.

Until the balance of power changes what we have to do is two things:

1) Maintain our rights over the whole of Cyprus by not singing any capitulation agreement that will grant the north to the Turks.
2) Do what we can so that change of balance of power can come earlier, by keeping Turkey out of EU and helping them to move more toward Islam, by helping the Kurdish leaders promote the idea of an independent Kurdistan among the Kurdish people, and by making our relationship with other countries stronger.

The idea that the Cyprus Problem can be solved with negotiations is an illusion. The Turks took that part of our island by war and they are not going to give it up unless there is another war where they will lose. I wish there was another way to liberate our island, but unfortunately there is not.

They don't need our help to do that Piratis. In fact this is what they are threatening everybody with. That they will turn East towards their Turanist/panturkism dream. There are almost a billion Turkic populations around as you know.

This scares the shit both the EU and the Americans. They can barely tolerate the muslim generated terrorism, can you imagine adding to that a Turkic one?

And that is when the Americans, Russians and the Chinese will all turn against the Turks Add the revolting Kurds in to the mix (who will be then armed by the super powers), and there you have a possible way for the change in the balance of power.

That would be fine, but as I said in my previous post they are just threatening hoping to get something in return. Those who have the balance of power today WON'T LET THEM. And the easiest way to avert them is by giving them something in return, probably a free EU entry, or an Anan plan 2

[repulsewarrior]

...premeditated long before that.

Turkey still struggles with the Treaty of Lausanne.

[Piratis]

The discussion here confirms what I said: The Cyprus problem will be solved only with a change in the balance of power. Only when this happens we will be able to take back our lands and solve all the other problems (e.g. Settlers). In the same way that Turkey took our land and removed the native population replacing them with Settlers, we will take back our land and send those Settlers back to Turkey.

The only (huge) difference will be that we will be liberating what is ours, while what the Turks did was occupying something which does not belong to them.

Until the balance of power changes what we have to do is two things:

1) Maintain our rights over the whole of Cyprus by not singing any capitulation agreement that will grant the north to the Turks.
2) Do what we can so that change of balance of power can come earlier, by keeping Turkey out of EU and helping them to move more toward Islam, by helping the Kurdish leaders promote the idea of an independent Kurdistan among the Kurdish people, and by making our relationship with other countries stronger.

The idea that the Cyprus Problem can be solved with negotiations is an illusion. The Turks took that part of our island by war and they are not going to give it up unless there is another war where they will lose. I wish there was another way to liberate our island, but unfortunately there is not.

They don't need our help to do that Piratis. In fact this is what they are threatening everybody with. That they will turn East towards their Turanist/panturkism dream. There are almost a billion Turkic populations around as you know.

This scares the shit both the EU and the Americans. They can barely tolerate the muslim generated terrorism, can you imagine adding to that a Turkic one?

And that is when the Americans, Russians and the Chinese will all turn against the Turks Add the revolting Kurds in to the mix (who will be then armed by the super powers), and there you have a possible way for the change in the balance of power.

That would be fine, but as I said in my previous post they are just threatening hoping to get something in return. Those who have the balance of power today WON'T LET THEM. And the easiest way to avert them is by giving them something in return, probably a free EU entry, or an Anan plan 2

Yes, but we can do what we can so it will not be possible to avert them in that way, and help the Turks take the wrong path. The Turks are arrogant so I do not believe it is impossible for them to make the wrong (for them) choice. All they need is a bit of push.