Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Liberating Cyprus like all other Greek islands and territories after centuries of being oppressed under foreign rulers (British, Turks etc) was the right of the Cypriot people. Just because a minority of Muslims was formed in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule this didn't mean that Cypriots didn't have the right for freedom. Most other Greek islands and territories had Muslim minorities as well. But just like Cyprus, the vast majority of the population was still Greek for 1000s of years, which is why it made perfect sense for those islands and mainland territories to be liberated and be part of a free Greek State. Rhodes for example, which also has a Turkish minority, was liberated from Italian rule in 1947 and naturally it united with the rest of Greece.

Now of course we can not expect from the Turks to understand our rights. For them we are the slaves whom they conquered, and we have no right to democratically determine the destiny of our own island.

Their mentality has not changed since 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

If the Cypriot people had been allowed their freedom from back then, there wouldn't be any need for enosis (union) since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being integrated to the rest of the Greek state was not any less legitimate than independence. The Cypriot people should have been allowed to choose in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they wanted for their own island. Then there wouldn't be the need for any armed struggle or any EOKA. Given the option we might have even chosen a real independence. (unlike the one they gave us)

Since our legitimate options were denied by the foreign Imperialists we were forced to revolt against them. This revolution was against the British Colonialists, and not against the Muslim/Turkish minority. The Muslim minority was not targeted or attacked. Who was attacked were the British Colonialists and those Cypriots who collaborated with them. We have several other minorities in Cyprus, just like there are Muslim and other minorities in the rest of Greece, and we have no problem with them being in Cyprus.

The responsibility for the begging of the inter-communal conflict lies solely on the TCs and those who armed them and used them as their pawns, turning them against GCs in order to deny from Cypriots their freedom and in this way maintain troops and control over our island.

It is the TCs who in 1958 committed the first massacre and burned the homes and shops of innocent people for the sole reason that they were GCs. These is a fact. Now Bir is trying to circumvent this fact with imaginary stories about things that never happened anywhere except from the sick minds of those who imagined them in order to excuse their crimes. They imagined that GCs would supposedly attack them, and they used their own imaginary story as an excuse to commit massacres and burn the homes and shops of innocent people, starting in this way the inter-communal conflict.

Piratis we are at what we are TODAY. (see my previous post).
What do you think is the future in Cyprus, considering that in just 20 years from now the original TCs will be history and the north will be mostly settlers?

I had a chat yesterday in the centre of Famagusta with some Cyprus-born sons of settlers, aged in their twenties, and I asked about their hopes and aspirations for the future. They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus. I agree with you that the realities on the ground are changing fast.

Is this a widespread notion though? I really doubt...

I do not doubt it. Now that the UBP is back in control of the government and presidency, regardless of whether you want to place these two terms in quotes or not, it does not take a political genius to see that it is going to be made easier for people to migrate to northern Cyprus from Turkey and subsequently to acquire citizenship. As far as I can see, there is no longer any propsect for solving the Cyprus problem using paradigms that still had some validity five years ago, or even last year. As you say, the original TCs will soon be history.

When you said "They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus."

I thought you meant they are sure they will HAVE TO LEAVE....

It seems you meant exactly the opposite


In which case of course I agree with you.

[Tim Drayton]

Liberating Cyprus like all other Greek islands and territories after centuries of being oppressed under foreign rulers (British, Turks etc) was the right of the Cypriot people. Just because a minority of Muslims was formed in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule this didn't mean that Cypriots didn't have the right for freedom. Most other Greek islands and territories had Muslim minorities as well. But just like Cyprus, the vast majority of the population was still Greek for 1000s of years, which is why it made perfect sense for those islands and mainland territories to be liberated and be part of a free Greek State. Rhodes for example, which also has a Turkish minority, was liberated from Italian rule in 1947 and naturally it united with the rest of Greece.

Now of course we can not expect from the Turks to understand our rights. For them we are the slaves whom they conquered, and we have no right to democratically determine the destiny of our own island.

Their mentality has not changed since 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

If the Cypriot people had been allowed their freedom from back then, there wouldn't be any need for enosis (union) since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being integrated to the rest of the Greek state was not any less legitimate than independence. The Cypriot people should have been allowed to choose in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they wanted for their own island. Then there wouldn't be the need for any armed struggle or any EOKA. Given the option we might have even chosen a real independence. (unlike the one they gave us)

Since our legitimate options were denied by the foreign Imperialists we were forced to revolt against them. This revolution was against the British Colonialists, and not against the Muslim/Turkish minority. The Muslim minority was not targeted or attacked. Who was attacked were the British Colonialists and those Cypriots who collaborated with them. We have several other minorities in Cyprus, just like there are Muslim and other minorities in the rest of Greece, and we have no problem with them being in Cyprus.

The responsibility for the begging of the inter-communal conflict lies solely on the TCs and those who armed them and used them as their pawns, turning them against GCs in order to deny from Cypriots their freedom and in this way maintain troops and control over our island.

It is the TCs who in 1958 committed the first massacre and burned the homes and shops of innocent people for the sole reason that they were GCs. These is a fact. Now Bir is trying to circumvent this fact with imaginary stories about things that never happened anywhere except from the sick minds of those who imagined them in order to excuse their crimes. They imagined that GCs would supposedly attack them, and they used their own imaginary story as an excuse to commit massacres and burn the homes and shops of innocent people, starting in this way the inter-communal conflict.

Piratis we are at what we are TODAY. (see my previous post).
What do you think is the future in Cyprus, considering that in just 20 years from now the original TCs will be history and the north will be mostly settlers?

I had a chat yesterday in the centre of Famagusta with some Cyprus-born sons of settlers, aged in their twenties, and I asked about their hopes and aspirations for the future. They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus. I agree with you that the realities on the ground are changing fast.

Is this a widespread notion though? I really doubt...

I do not doubt it. Now that the UBP is back in control of the government and presidency, regardless of whether you want to place these two terms in quotes or not, it does not take a political genius to see that it is going to be made easier for people to migrate to northern Cyprus from Turkey and subsequently to acquire citizenship. As far as I can see, there is no longer any propsect for solving the Cyprus problem using paradigms that still had some validity five years ago, or even last year. As you say, the original TCs will soon be history.

When you said "They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus."

I thought you meant they are sure they will HAVE TO LEAVE....

It seems you meant exactly the opposite


In which case of course I agree with you.

OK. Sorry, the syntax of the sentence is not very clear. They spoke about their plans for their futures in Cyprus, with the idea that they may have to leave never even occuring to them.

Yes, it is time to develop new paradigms.

[Pyrpolizer]

The question is can the TCs do something now that we are at the last minute before they become History?
Imo no, Eroglu's election was simply the coming of an already pre-announced death.
The funeral will be in next elections when some settler becomes their president...

[YFred]

Liberating Cyprus like all other Greek islands and territories after centuries of being oppressed under foreign rulers (British, Turks etc) was the right of the Cypriot people. Just because a minority of Muslims was formed in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule this didn't mean that Cypriots didn't have the right for freedom. Most other Greek islands and territories had Muslim minorities as well. But just like Cyprus, the vast majority of the population was still Greek for 1000s of years, which is why it made perfect sense for those islands and mainland territories to be liberated and be part of a free Greek State. Rhodes for example, which also has a Turkish minority, was liberated from Italian rule in 1947 and naturally it united with the rest of Greece.

Now of course we can not expect from the Turks to understand our rights. For them we are the slaves whom they conquered, and we have no right to democratically determine the destiny of our own island.

Their mentality has not changed since 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

If the Cypriot people had been allowed their freedom from back then, there wouldn't be any need for enosis (union) since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being integrated to the rest of the Greek state was not any less legitimate than independence. The Cypriot people should have been allowed to choose in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they wanted for their own island. Then there wouldn't be the need for any armed struggle or any EOKA. Given the option we might have even chosen a real independence. (unlike the one they gave us)

Since our legitimate options were denied by the foreign Imperialists we were forced to revolt against them. This revolution was against the British Colonialists, and not against the Muslim/Turkish minority. The Muslim minority was not targeted or attacked. Who was attacked were the British Colonialists and those Cypriots who collaborated with them. We have several other minorities in Cyprus, just like there are Muslim and other minorities in the rest of Greece, and we have no problem with them being in Cyprus.

The responsibility for the begging of the inter-communal conflict lies solely on the TCs and those who armed them and used them as their pawns, turning them against GCs in order to deny from Cypriots their freedom and in this way maintain troops and control over our island.

It is the TCs who in 1958 committed the first massacre and burned the homes and shops of innocent people for the sole reason that they were GCs. These is a fact. Now Bir is trying to circumvent this fact with imaginary stories about things that never happened anywhere except from the sick minds of those who imagined them in order to excuse their crimes. They imagined that GCs would supposedly attack them, and they used their own imaginary story as an excuse to commit massacres and burn the homes and shops of innocent people, starting in this way the inter-communal conflict.

Piratis we are at what we are TODAY. (see my previous post).
What do you think is the future in Cyprus, considering that in just 20 years from now the original TCs will be history and the north will be mostly settlers?

I had a chat yesterday in the centre of Famagusta with some Cyprus-born sons of settlers, aged in their twenties, and I asked about their hopes and aspirations for the future. They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus. I agree with you that the realities on the ground are changing fast.

Is this a widespread notion though? I really doubt...

I do not doubt it. Now that the UBP is back in control of the government and presidency, regardless of whether you want to place these two terms in quotes or not, it does not take a political genius to see that it is going to be made easier for people to migrate to northern Cyprus from Turkey and subsequently to acquire citizenship. As far as I can see, there is no longer any propsect for solving the Cyprus problem using paradigms that still had some validity five years ago, or even last year. As you say, the original TCs will soon be history.

When you said "They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus."

I thought you meant they are sure they will HAVE TO LEAVE....

It seems you meant exactly the opposite


In which case of course I agree with you.

OK. Sorry, the syntax of the sentence is not very clear. They spoke about their plans for their futures in Cyprus, with the idea that they may have to leave never even occuring to them.

Yes, it is time to develop new paradigms.

Do you really expect people who are born there to just pack up their bags and go?
Surely our GC cousins need to be more realistic than that in their expectations, they will just have to see through race ignore their ugly faces and their unibrows with chinky eyes and see them as what they are ordinary human beings.

[Jerry]

Surely our GC cousins need to be more realistic than that in their expectations, they will just have to see through race ignore their ugly faces and their unibrows with chinky eyes and see them as what they are ordinary human beings.

Sounds like you have just argued the case for GC "ordinary human beings" to return to the north, Fred.

[denizaksulu]

I have told this story before,time to repeat it...

Some years ago,in the early 90s,I was visiting my sister in Ankara...
I loved shopping for fruit and vegetables at those weekly open air markets you find in many suburbs...One day I was doing my shopping,on my own,and my load started to get too heavy and cumbersome to carry. So i looked around for one of the many porters you can hire..They are usually old men or young boys who carry huge cane baskets on their backs...I never hired the old men...Out of respect for their age...
Anyway,in no time not one but 2 young boys appeared in front of me...I signalled to the older and bigger one and started putting my shopping in his basket...The younger one insisted that he saw me first,and they started arguing loudly about it..I stepped in and solved the problem by hiring them both...They were very happy on the way home,but I was disturbed by the implications of their fight...I started telling them they were the victims of the liberal economic system,and they should not fight amongst each other...They should have solidarity,and united they could fight the system which was oppressing them etc etc...I have no idea if I made any difference that day in their lives,I never saw them again...

Now,I will tell you the same thing...Both GCs and TCs are the victims of geopolitical power plays of the big boys,and we should stop blaming each other...We should accept the part we played in this conflict,and rise above the petty accusations of who suffered most or longest...It is pointles to deny history,and the historical precesses which brought us where we are.
We were played for suckers,and we are still being played for suckers by those using the nationalism stick to spread their hatred and bitterness...
Once the bigger plan was in operation there was nothing either the GCs or TCs could've done realistically to change anything..Things happened as they did,and we cannot wipe the slate clean,I am afraid...We need to stop the blame game and agree on the most realistic solution,in order to get our fate in our own hands,as it was between 1960-63...We stuffed it up big time then,and we can only hope we have learned our lessons...If we hang on in the hope of getting what we think is the most desirable outcome,we,Cypriots will lose it all...We don't have the luxury to wait till "the balance of power changes"...There is no guarantee that if there is a change it will be in Cypriots' favour...Once a feasible solution is achieved we can get on with the job of creating mutual trust and respect in order to help us achieve nationhood sometime in the future...

....and poor elderly porter, with all the years behind him and probably mouths to feed as well............well thats another story...............

[Tim Drayton]

Liberating Cyprus like all other Greek islands and territories after centuries of being oppressed under foreign rulers (British, Turks etc) was the right of the Cypriot people. Just because a minority of Muslims was formed in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule this didn't mean that Cypriots didn't have the right for freedom. Most other Greek islands and territories had Muslim minorities as well. But just like Cyprus, the vast majority of the population was still Greek for 1000s of years, which is why it made perfect sense for those islands and mainland territories to be liberated and be part of a free Greek State. Rhodes for example, which also has a Turkish minority, was liberated from Italian rule in 1947 and naturally it united with the rest of Greece.

Now of course we can not expect from the Turks to understand our rights. For them we are the slaves whom they conquered, and we have no right to democratically determine the destiny of our own island.

Their mentality has not changed since 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

If the Cypriot people had been allowed their freedom from back then, there wouldn't be any need for enosis (union) since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being integrated to the rest of the Greek state was not any less legitimate than independence. The Cypriot people should have been allowed to choose in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they wanted for their own island. Then there wouldn't be the need for any armed struggle or any EOKA. Given the option we might have even chosen a real independence. (unlike the one they gave us)

Since our legitimate options were denied by the foreign Imperialists we were forced to revolt against them. This revolution was against the British Colonialists, and not against the Muslim/Turkish minority. The Muslim minority was not targeted or attacked. Who was attacked were the British Colonialists and those Cypriots who collaborated with them. We have several other minorities in Cyprus, just like there are Muslim and other minorities in the rest of Greece, and we have no problem with them being in Cyprus.

The responsibility for the begging of the inter-communal conflict lies solely on the TCs and those who armed them and used them as their pawns, turning them against GCs in order to deny from Cypriots their freedom and in this way maintain troops and control over our island.

It is the TCs who in 1958 committed the first massacre and burned the homes and shops of innocent people for the sole reason that they were GCs. These is a fact. Now Bir is trying to circumvent this fact with imaginary stories about things that never happened anywhere except from the sick minds of those who imagined them in order to excuse their crimes. They imagined that GCs would supposedly attack them, and they used their own imaginary story as an excuse to commit massacres and burn the homes and shops of innocent people, starting in this way the inter-communal conflict.

Piratis we are at what we are TODAY. (see my previous post).
What do you think is the future in Cyprus, considering that in just 20 years from now the original TCs will be history and the north will be mostly settlers?

I had a chat yesterday in the centre of Famagusta with some Cyprus-born sons of settlers, aged in their twenties, and I asked about their hopes and aspirations for the future. They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus. I agree with you that the realities on the ground are changing fast.

Is this a widespread notion though? I really doubt...

I do not doubt it. Now that the UBP is back in control of the government and presidency, regardless of whether you want to place these two terms in quotes or not, it does not take a political genius to see that it is going to be made easier for people to migrate to northern Cyprus from Turkey and subsequently to acquire citizenship. As far as I can see, there is no longer any propsect for solving the Cyprus problem using paradigms that still had some validity five years ago, or even last year. As you say, the original TCs will soon be history.

When you said "They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus."

I thought you meant they are sure they will HAVE TO LEAVE....

It seems you meant exactly the opposite


In which case of course I agree with you.

OK. Sorry, the syntax of the sentence is not very clear. They spoke about their plans for their futures in Cyprus, with the idea that they may have to leave never even occuring to them.

Yes, it is time to develop new paradigms.

Do you really expect people who are born there to just pack up their bags and go?Surely our GC cousins need to be more realistic than that in their expectations, they will just have to see through race ignore their ugly faces and their unibrows with chinky eyes and see them as what they are ordinary human beings.

No, I don't. That is why I am talking of the need to develop new paradigms. I was the guest at the home of a settler family for some time yesterday, and met various members of the extended family. In my eyes, what I saw there was the new face of northern Cyprus.

[Pyrpolizer]

Yeah right the Charity man has spoken. Let's ethnically cleanse the GCs steal their lands and properties donate them to trashy settles (hey they are lovely creatures because after all they are Turks like Mr Charity man) and then tell the GCs to hey "see through race" they are ordinary human beings, be realistic, let them stay...

[pappy_sydney]

halil said

Denktaş is an honorary member of The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation. Exclamation Wink

http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/

Thats like saying Adolf Hitler is an honorary member of the Mother Teresa foundation...

[YFred]

Yeah right the Charity man has spoken. Let's ethnically cleanse the GCs steal their lands and properties donate them to trashy settles (hey they are lovely creatures because after all they are Turks like Mr Charity man) and then tell the GCs to hey "see through race" they are ordinary human beings, be realistic, let them stay...

Yeah right. The turks just woke up one morning and decided to invade. The one thing TCs feared was that they had become sitting ducks in the enclaves once the GC NG acquired Tanks. One must learn to analyse the risks involved in ones actions.
I thought that you greeks were good at maths. What went wrong then? or was that not part of finite analysis calculations. Instead of reducing risk you increased it to infinity.
Work that one out.