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Who was Denktash?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby denizaksulu » Sat May 08, 2010 10:24 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
I knew Dr. B Nalbantoglu when he had a small clinic in London Street/Nicosia. We were always flirting with his nurses. He often chastised us (I was 15/16 at the time).

I encountered him on that fateful day 22nd December 1963; We had taken my friend Ahmet (now also a doctor, from Pergama) after he was shot by the GC police when they drove past the Turkish Boys Lycee. He was shot in the mouth and Nalbantoglu and his team tended to his injuries. Then he left in a hurry and convened a meeting with 'others' in the next room. Now I think that they were the TMT leadership. Denktash was not around.
After that, I saw Nalbantoglu always with his Uzi-like automatic pistol, strutting the streets.

I know you asked Bir, but I like jumping in sometimes.

:lol: :lol:


No problem Deniz, in fact your information was valueable. What do you think of Denktashe's absence from that meeting? Was it just accidental?


I doubt he had heard of the incident yet, but am sure it would not take him long to find out. For all I know he might have showed up later on, after I left the hospital.

Somehow I think it was not perceived as a serious incident as in the afternoon, me and a few friends were near Metaxas Square at an icecream parlour. It was the Sunday night when all hell broke loose.
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Postby Piratis » Sun May 09, 2010 1:32 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Piratis wrote:
The population in occupied Cyprus is fully controlled by Turkey, regardless if they are TCs or Settlers. The future of Cyprus does not depend on what label we give to those who are illegally occupying our land, but on the balance of power.

With the current balance of power unfortunately Cyprus will remain divided. There is no other option available today. A real unification is just not possible now. The best thing we can do is to keep this division illegal, so in the future, under a different balance of power, we will be able to restore legality and our rights over our lands.


Problem is Piratis I don't know of any precedent in history where ethnically cleansed populations regained their lands. Changes of the balance of power happen all the time, just name me one ethnically cleansed population who regained their lands...


It is not about "ethnically cleansed populations regaining their land" but about a more powerful side gaining land from a weaker side, which is something that happened many times. If/when the balance of power changes and the Turks find themselves in the weaker side of the equation (the other side will not be just Cyprus, but maybe Greeks with the support of the west/Christians - it happened before) then we can regain our land in the same way that the Turks took it from us.

The fact that it will be legally our own land means that we will have every right to liberate it, unlike the Turks who had no right to invade and illegally occupy it.

By the way, the Jews are an example of a population regaining their land.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Sun May 09, 2010 4:44 am

I have told this story before,time to repeat it...

Some years ago,in the early 90s,I was visiting my sister in Ankara...
I loved shopping for fruit and vegetables at those weekly open air markets you find in many suburbs...One day I was doing my shopping,on my own,and my load started to get too heavy and cumbersome to carry. So i looked around for one of the many porters you can hire..They are usually old men or young boys who carry huge cane baskets on their backs...I never hired the old men...Out of respect for their age...
Anyway,in no time not one but 2 young boys appeared in front of me...I signalled to the older and bigger one and started putting my shopping in his basket...The younger one insisted that he saw me first,and they started arguing loudly about it..I stepped in and solved the problem by hiring them both...They were very happy on the way home,but I was disturbed by the implications of their fight...I started telling them they were the victims of the liberal economic system,and they should not fight amongst each other...They should have solidarity,and united they could fight the system which was oppressing them etc etc...I have no idea if I made any difference that day in their lives,I never saw them again...

Now,I will tell you the same thing...Both GCs and TCs are the victims of geopolitical power plays of the big boys,and we should stop blaming each other...We should accept the part we played in this conflict,and rise above the petty accusations of who suffered most or longest...It is pointles to deny history,and the historical precesses which brought us where we are.
We were played for suckers,and we are still being played for suckers by those using the nationalism stick to spread their hatred and bitterness...
Once the bigger plan was in operation there was nothing either the GCs or TCs could've done realistically to change anything..Things happened as they did,and we cannot wipe the slate clean,I am afraid...We need to stop the blame game and agree on the most realistic solution,in order to get our fate in our own hands,as it was between 1960-63...We stuffed it up big time then,and we can only hope we have learned our lessons...If we hang on in the hope of getting what we think is the most desirable outcome,we,Cypriots will lose it all...We don't have the luxury to wait till "the balance of power changes"...There is no guarantee that if there is a change it will be in Cypriots' favour...Once a feasible solution is achieved we can get on with the job of creating mutual trust and respect in order to help us achieve nationhood sometime in the future...
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Postby Oracle » Sun May 09, 2010 5:50 am

We're not interested in your insulting "blame game" analysis. Wanting justice to allow the 200,000 ethnically cleansed GC natives of this land to return to their homes, is not some petty game of blame!
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Postby Piratis » Sun May 09, 2010 6:21 am

Now,I will tell you the same thing...Both GCs and TCs are the victims of geopolitical power plays of the big boys,and we should stop blaming each other...We should accept the part we played in this conflict,and rise above the petty accusations of who suffered most or longest...It is pointles to deny history,and the historical precesses which brought us where we are.
We were played for suckers,and we are still being played for suckers by those using the nationalism stick to spread their hatred and bitterness...
Once the bigger plan was in operation there was nothing either the GCs or TCs could've done realistically to change anything


How is the above comment compatible with earlier comments that you made that "GCs should pay the price"?

We need to stop the blame game and agree on the most realistic solution,in order to get our fate in our own hands,as it was between 1960-63...We stuffed it up big time then,and we can only hope we have learned our lessons


The problem existed before 1960 and if there is one lesson to be learned is that racist, divisive, undemocratic arrangements imposed by foreigners on the Cypriot people can not solve the problem but can only make it worst.

Once a feasible solution is achieved we can get on with the job of creating mutual trust and respect in order to help us achieve nationhood sometime in the future


A solution would be feasible if such a solution could be acceptable by both sides. Personally I don't see any such feasible solution. What you call "feasible" is merely us accepting the 99.9% of your demands in what would in effect be legalization of the results of the Turkish invasion. Such kind of "solution" is divisive and if it leads to something else that something else will be an official partition and not anything better.

If in Turkey there is a problem of child labor the way to solve the problem is obviously not to legalize such practice. This can only help those who take advantage of those children, not the children themselves.

Similarly, it is wrong to institutionalize the racist divisions that certain Imperialists helped to create in Cyprus in order to serve their own interests. Such thing will not be to the advantage of the vast majority of the Cypriot people.

The solution in both cases is reforms that will serve the human rights of the whole population and not the interests of a few and the foreign imperialists.

It is clear that TCs do not want a real solution because they continue to hope to receive the gains that were promised to them on the expense of the rest of the population of Cyprus. Therefore a solution is currently impossible. The solution will become possible only if TCs change their mind and accept to be equal Cypriot citizens, rather than the privileged group with disproportionally high powers granted to them by foreigners, or when the balance of power changes.

It seems to me that there is a higher chance in a positive change in the balance of power, than the chance of TCs realizing that it will be better for all of us if they stopped playing the game of the foreign Imperialists.
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Postby Tim Drayton » Sun May 09, 2010 9:17 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Piratis wrote:Liberating Cyprus like all other Greek islands and territories after centuries of being oppressed under foreign rulers (British, Turks etc) was the right of the Cypriot people. Just because a minority of Muslims was formed in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule this didn't mean that Cypriots didn't have the right for freedom. Most other Greek islands and territories had Muslim minorities as well. But just like Cyprus, the vast majority of the population was still Greek for 1000s of years, which is why it made perfect sense for those islands and mainland territories to be liberated and be part of a free Greek State. Rhodes for example, which also has a Turkish minority, was liberated from Italian rule in 1947 and naturally it united with the rest of Greece.

Now of course we can not expect from the Turks to understand our rights. For them we are the slaves whom they conquered, and we have no right to democratically determine the destiny of our own island.

Their mentality has not changed since 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.


If the Cypriot people had been allowed their freedom from back then, there wouldn't be any need for enosis (union) since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being integrated to the rest of the Greek state was not any less legitimate than independence. The Cypriot people should have been allowed to choose in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they wanted for their own island. Then there wouldn't be the need for any armed struggle or any EOKA. Given the option we might have even chosen a real independence. (unlike the one they gave us)

Since our legitimate options were denied by the foreign Imperialists we were forced to revolt against them. This revolution was against the British Colonialists, and not against the Muslim/Turkish minority. The Muslim minority was not targeted or attacked. Who was attacked were the British Colonialists and those Cypriots who collaborated with them. We have several other minorities in Cyprus, just like there are Muslim and other minorities in the rest of Greece, and we have no problem with them being in Cyprus.

The responsibility for the begging of the inter-communal conflict lies solely on the TCs and those who armed them and used them as their pawns, turning them against GCs in order to deny from Cypriots their freedom and in this way maintain troops and control over our island.

It is the TCs who in 1958 committed the first massacre and burned the homes and shops of innocent people for the sole reason that they were GCs. These is a fact. Now Bir is trying to circumvent this fact with imaginary stories about things that never happened anywhere except from the sick minds of those who imagined them in order to excuse their crimes. They imagined that GCs would supposedly attack them, and they used their own imaginary story as an excuse to commit massacres and burn the homes and shops of innocent people, starting in this way the inter-communal conflict.


Piratis we are at what we are TODAY. (see my previous post).
What do you think is the future in Cyprus, considering that in just 20 years from now the original TCs will be history and the north will be mostly settlers?


I had a chat yesterday in the centre of Famagusta with some Cyprus-born sons of settlers, aged in their twenties, and I asked about their hopes and aspirations for the future. They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus. I agree with you that the realities on the ground are changing fast.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sun May 09, 2010 10:19 am

BirKibrisli wrote:I have told this story before,time to repeat it...

Some years ago,in the early 90s,I was visiting my sister in Ankara...
I loved shopping for fruit and vegetables at those weekly open air markets you find in many suburbs...One day I was doing my shopping,on my own,and my load started to get too heavy and cumbersome to carry. So i looked around for one of the many porters you can hire..They are usually old men or young boys who carry huge cane baskets on their backs...I never hired the old men...Out of respect for their age...
Anyway,in no time not one but 2 young boys appeared in front of me...I signalled to the older and bigger one and started putting my shopping in his basket...The younger one insisted that he saw me first,and they started arguing loudly about it..I stepped in and solved the problem by hiring them both...They were very happy on the way home,but I was disturbed by the implications of their fight...I started telling them they were the victims of the liberal economic system,and they should not fight amongst each other...They should have solidarity,and united they could fight the system which was oppressing them etc etc...I have no idea if I made any difference that day in their lives,I never saw them again...

Now,I will tell you the same thing...Both GCs and TCs are the victims of geopolitical power plays of the big boys,and we should stop blaming each other...We should accept the part we played in this conflict,and rise above the petty accusations of who suffered most or longest...It is pointles to deny history,and the historical precesses which brought us where we are.
We were played for suckers,and we are still being played for suckers by those using the nationalism stick to spread their hatred and bitterness...
Once the bigger plan was in operation there was nothing either the GCs or TCs could've done realistically to change anything..Things happened as they did,and we cannot wipe the slate clean,I am afraid...We need to stop the blame game and agree on the most realistic solution,in order to get our fate in our own hands,as it was between 1960-63...We stuffed it up big time then,and we can only hope we have learned our lessons...If we hang on in the hope of getting what we think is the most desirable outcome,we,Cypriots will lose it all...We don't have the luxury to wait till "the balance of power changes"...There is no guarantee that if there is a change it will be in Cypriots' favour...Once a feasible solution is achieved we can get on with the job of creating mutual trust and respect in order to help us achieve nationhood sometime in the future...


Noble thoughts dear Bir. This COULD happen you know if Denktash had not locked the TCs for 30 whole years. It COULD happen in the early days if there was communication between the 2 communities.

Today there were and still are some initiatives. Unlike the case of the young hamal/χαμαληδες where they could just join forces for either getting clients or fight the system-which is a simple and singular target, the biccommunal groups NEVER had an agreed target. To have an agreed target actually means to have a draft of how the Cyprus problem would be solved.

Ask Bananiot for example what have they ever agreed in the bicommunal groups he joins? Nothing, all they just do they call all politicians fascists and burden to re-unification. There is another biccomunal group fighting for the opening of as many crossing points as possible in fact Limnitis/Erenkoys opening is partly due to their initiatives.
However these only touch the surface of the Cyprus problem.

The core issue of the CP is a)the properties b)The autonomy the TCs must get in either a Fed form or whatever c)settlers issue and propably d)safety issue.

If there will ever be a biccomunal group that would set commonly agreed targets for the 4 above, i guarantee you the CP will be solved, and i will be among the first to join
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Postby Malapapa » Sun May 09, 2010 10:23 am

This would be the CNP's colourful suggestion for how to deal with the "realities on the ground" mess...

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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sun May 09, 2010 10:30 am

Tim Drayton wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
Piratis wrote:Liberating Cyprus like all other Greek islands and territories after centuries of being oppressed under foreign rulers (British, Turks etc) was the right of the Cypriot people. Just because a minority of Muslims was formed in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule this didn't mean that Cypriots didn't have the right for freedom. Most other Greek islands and territories had Muslim minorities as well. But just like Cyprus, the vast majority of the population was still Greek for 1000s of years, which is why it made perfect sense for those islands and mainland territories to be liberated and be part of a free Greek State. Rhodes for example, which also has a Turkish minority, was liberated from Italian rule in 1947 and naturally it united with the rest of Greece.

Now of course we can not expect from the Turks to understand our rights. For them we are the slaves whom they conquered, and we have no right to democratically determine the destiny of our own island.

Their mentality has not changed since 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.


If the Cypriot people had been allowed their freedom from back then, there wouldn't be any need for enosis (union) since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being integrated to the rest of the Greek state was not any less legitimate than independence. The Cypriot people should have been allowed to choose in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they wanted for their own island. Then there wouldn't be the need for any armed struggle or any EOKA. Given the option we might have even chosen a real independence. (unlike the one they gave us)

Since our legitimate options were denied by the foreign Imperialists we were forced to revolt against them. This revolution was against the British Colonialists, and not against the Muslim/Turkish minority. The Muslim minority was not targeted or attacked. Who was attacked were the British Colonialists and those Cypriots who collaborated with them. We have several other minorities in Cyprus, just like there are Muslim and other minorities in the rest of Greece, and we have no problem with them being in Cyprus.

The responsibility for the begging of the inter-communal conflict lies solely on the TCs and those who armed them and used them as their pawns, turning them against GCs in order to deny from Cypriots their freedom and in this way maintain troops and control over our island.

It is the TCs who in 1958 committed the first massacre and burned the homes and shops of innocent people for the sole reason that they were GCs. These is a fact. Now Bir is trying to circumvent this fact with imaginary stories about things that never happened anywhere except from the sick minds of those who imagined them in order to excuse their crimes. They imagined that GCs would supposedly attack them, and they used their own imaginary story as an excuse to commit massacres and burn the homes and shops of innocent people, starting in this way the inter-communal conflict.


Piratis we are at what we are TODAY. (see my previous post).
What do you think is the future in Cyprus, considering that in just 20 years from now the original TCs will be history and the north will be mostly settlers?


I had a chat yesterday in the centre of Famagusta with some Cyprus-born sons of settlers, aged in their twenties, and I asked about their hopes and aspirations for the future. They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus. I agree with you that the realities on the ground are changing fast.


Is this a widespread notion though? I really doubt...
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Postby Tim Drayton » Sun May 09, 2010 10:50 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
Piratis wrote:Liberating Cyprus like all other Greek islands and territories after centuries of being oppressed under foreign rulers (British, Turks etc) was the right of the Cypriot people. Just because a minority of Muslims was formed in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule this didn't mean that Cypriots didn't have the right for freedom. Most other Greek islands and territories had Muslim minorities as well. But just like Cyprus, the vast majority of the population was still Greek for 1000s of years, which is why it made perfect sense for those islands and mainland territories to be liberated and be part of a free Greek State. Rhodes for example, which also has a Turkish minority, was liberated from Italian rule in 1947 and naturally it united with the rest of Greece.

Now of course we can not expect from the Turks to understand our rights. For them we are the slaves whom they conquered, and we have no right to democratically determine the destiny of our own island.

Their mentality has not changed since 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.


If the Cypriot people had been allowed their freedom from back then, there wouldn't be any need for enosis (union) since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being integrated to the rest of the Greek state was not any less legitimate than independence. The Cypriot people should have been allowed to choose in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they wanted for their own island. Then there wouldn't be the need for any armed struggle or any EOKA. Given the option we might have even chosen a real independence. (unlike the one they gave us)

Since our legitimate options were denied by the foreign Imperialists we were forced to revolt against them. This revolution was against the British Colonialists, and not against the Muslim/Turkish minority. The Muslim minority was not targeted or attacked. Who was attacked were the British Colonialists and those Cypriots who collaborated with them. We have several other minorities in Cyprus, just like there are Muslim and other minorities in the rest of Greece, and we have no problem with them being in Cyprus.

The responsibility for the begging of the inter-communal conflict lies solely on the TCs and those who armed them and used them as their pawns, turning them against GCs in order to deny from Cypriots their freedom and in this way maintain troops and control over our island.

It is the TCs who in 1958 committed the first massacre and burned the homes and shops of innocent people for the sole reason that they were GCs. These is a fact. Now Bir is trying to circumvent this fact with imaginary stories about things that never happened anywhere except from the sick minds of those who imagined them in order to excuse their crimes. They imagined that GCs would supposedly attack them, and they used their own imaginary story as an excuse to commit massacres and burn the homes and shops of innocent people, starting in this way the inter-communal conflict.


Piratis we are at what we are TODAY. (see my previous post).
What do you think is the future in Cyprus, considering that in just 20 years from now the original TCs will be history and the north will be mostly settlers?


I had a chat yesterday in the centre of Famagusta with some Cyprus-born sons of settlers, aged in their twenties, and I asked about their hopes and aspirations for the future. They spoke about this without expressing any doubt whatsoever as to whether they would one day have to leave Cyprus. I agree with you that the realities on the ground are changing fast.


Is this a widespread notion though? I really doubt...


I do not doubt it. Now that the UBP is back in control of the government and presidency, regardless of whether you want to place these two terms in quotes or not, it does not take a political genius to see that it is going to be made easier for people to migrate to northern Cyprus from Turkey and subsequently to acquire citizenship. As far as I can see, there is no longer any propsect for solving the Cyprus problem using paradigms that still had some validity five years ago, or even last year. As you say, the original TCs will soon be history.
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