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Who was Denktash?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat May 08, 2010 12:39 pm

YFred wrote:But Deniz, you've got to change reality because it does not fit in with the crap that our GC cousins down south have been fed. You see TMT started it all. That incident that happened did not happen at all, it was just in your mind. Ask Pyro, he knows everything. We don't really exist; we are figment of our imagination. When will you get it Deniz? Ask Pyro he knows because he grows. What? I am not so sure, but not brains that's for sure.
I wonder if our GC cousins could comprehend that it was a police man who shot an innocent man and got away with it.

I feel like breaking into a song. I think this one is ideal. Listen to the words when he talks about Texasli chavush.



Why are you so upset Fredie? Is it because you after 10,000+ posts you haven't managed to establish credibility?
Hey don't worry you will one day. Probably when you reach 50,000+
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby YFred » Sat May 08, 2010 1:41 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
YFred wrote:But Deniz, you've got to change reality because it does not fit in with the crap that our GC cousins down south have been fed. You see TMT started it all. That incident that happened did not happen at all, it was just in your mind. Ask Pyro, he knows everything. We don't really exist; we are figment of our imagination. When will you get it Deniz? Ask Pyro he knows because he grows. What? I am not so sure, but not brains that's for sure.
I wonder if our GC cousins could comprehend that it was a police man who shot an innocent man and got away with it.

I feel like breaking into a song. I think this one is ideal. Listen to the words when he talks about Texasli chavush.



Why are you so upset Fredie? Is it because you after 10,000+ posts you haven't managed to establish credibility?
Hey don't worry you will one day. Probably when you reach 50,000+
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Did I sound upset? then I suggest you do not understand my sense of humour and you actually have none. You are as bankrupt of sense of humour as Greece is of dosh. :lol:
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat May 08, 2010 2:00 pm

Angry & hateful with a disgusting language that you think is humoristic...
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Postby YFred » Sat May 08, 2010 2:11 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Angry & hateful with a disgusting language that you think is humoristic...

Now I am hurt. I shall ban the forum form my computer for a month, but only if I can.
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Postby georgios100 » Sat May 08, 2010 4:02 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
georgios100 wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
georgios100 wrote:
YFred wrote:
georgios100 wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:I think it is a mistake to think of these "historical" figures in black and white terms...As they say,'one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'...I want to correct some misconceptions about the TMT...Firstly,the TMT was not founded to advance the cause of Taksim...

Please explain why TMT was founded then...

Yes,they did embrace that later on but it was found to protect the TC community from what they thought was the inevitable widespread attacks from EOKA or other GC paramilitaries...Secondly,the TMT's sway over the average TC is largely exaggerated...Most TCs hero-worshipped the TMT and its commanders,very much like how most GCs hero-worship the EOKA today... And yes, the TMT did turn on those TCs it considered as traitors to the cause,and they did murder those they could not bring to their knees...


Can you provide specific numbers of murdered TCs or approx? What are we talking about? It it tens or hundreds?




The average TC would have considered these murders as "necessary evils",and keep on supporting the TMT for it was their only protection (so the believed) against "greater" evil...I don't believe there is anybody alive today who can prove that Denktas did anything "wrong" personally,as founder of the TMT...Let's not forget that the operational command of the TMT was handed over to Turkish Army officers pretty much from the beginning...

It may be true... no one is alive to prove Denktas wrongdoing, but surely Denktas knew of the "dark" side of the TMT (intimidating/killing TCs) and yet, never decided to pull out of TMT, therefor, we are to assume Denktas (knowingly) was approving of the atrocities. Well, he is guilty after all, don't you think?



The other thing to remember is this: Not everyone who joined the TMT were of good and noble character motivated to serve his community...Some were plain and simple thugs who were in it for personal gain,and who were used by those higher up to do the "dirty" work for them...

Also known as "buffers" sort of speak...

Those who suffered most from TMT's excessess (after those murdered by the TMT that is) were the good souls who joined the TMT to help protect their community,but couldn't stomach certain TMT practices...Most of them went into voluntary exile in countries like England and Australia,faithfully keeping their oaths of silence,and lived very unhappy and unfulfilled lives,and died very bitter persons... :( :(


Why keep their silence? Most exiled people make it loud & clear, to their host countries, of the atrocities they left behind... Could the TMT get to them, even as far as Australia?

Who is afraid of TMT today? Which planet are you from? Uranus?


YFred, bugger off!!!

I am waiting for Bir to comment not you. Bir's answers make sense, you just make noise.


Don't dismiss YFred so lightly,Georgio...His answers make sense too,but you have to dig deep to understand him...

Nothing is black and white,as dear Pyro explained in his penetrating post above..It was inevitable to have the notion of Taksim as soon as you had the ENOSIS notion...Similarly with the TMT and EOKA...One gave birth to the other...I differ from Pyro in that,I believe it was the fear of the EOKA and what they might do to the TCs, IF they managed to kick the British out which motivated its founding...Enosis and the EOKA were the catalysts...The TCs never bought the argument that EOKA was a freedom movement...for them it was an enslaving movement,wanting to make them slaves of Greece...But again,nothing is balck and white,many shades in between...While the Turkish govenment in the 50s (Menderes) showed little interest in Cyprus,the "Deep State",represented by the Special War Office (Ozel Harp Daires) was very interested indeed...Some argue that they used Cyprus and the TMT as a laboratory to develop their covert,underground operations they used so successfully for so long against successive Turkish governments,to protect the interests of the Military/bureacratic/industrialist ruling Kemalist elite...(which are now in a deadly struggle with Erdogan for their survival...see,Ergenekon).

One could say that during the 50s it was the Deep State, and their natural baby with the British and the Americans,the TMT, which embraced the TAksim cause and dragged the Turkish government into line...With the Military coup in 1960 Cyprus offically became "national cause' for Turkey and remained so till the ascent of Erdogan and his AKP...

Denktas being a Turanist (pan-Turkist) was more than willing to be the spiritual leader of the TMT,and yes,you are right,he cannot absolve himself from the crimes and excessess of the TMT...He did his best to hide behind his hatchet man,Dr Burhan Nalbantoglu,but he must've known and approved the more serious TMT actions in advance...Nalbantoglu was probably the only Turkish Cypriot who had enough evidence to convict Denktas in a court of law...He is long dead,of course...

But,I repeat,the TMT never had the kind of hold and sway over the TC community as the GCs like to believe..Personally,I was more scared of my grandmother than the TMT man in the village... :)
The average TC liked to know there was TMT ready to protect him against the EOKA (which was considered as bloodthirsty terrorists) but didn't like to take orders from them regarding their day to day lives...And certainly it wasn't the fear of TMT which made tens of thousands of TCs leave their villages and towns to seek shelter in enclaves...It was the fear of the EOKA and the GC paramilitaries...

People kept their vows of silence not because they feared the TMT once they were out of Cyprus (I know of no incident where the TMT tried to intimidate or silence someone overseas),but out of a sense of duty and royalty to their community...They thought it was their patriotic duty to honour their oath,I believe...


Thank you Bir, as always you take the time to enlighten us with details and insides not always found in a history book but by word of mouth.

Denktas, as I noted, was indeed aware of his surroundings and it is well understood by all of us, of his knowledge/approval of the events that unfolded during those troubled times. Some may say, he had no choice but to participate and order some of those cruel acts of violence as his "duty" to protect his people from EOKA or others. This excuse may suit him fine but in the eyes of the ordinary Cypriots and my self, I can assure you, he had numerous other ways to fulfil his obligations as a leader with other means and measures, in lieu of his mistaken chosen "tools". I regret the fact that he is still around "pulling" strings, now and then. Perhaps proof is out there but I doubt anyone is willing to come forward.

I would like to ask you this:

Was TMT convinced EOKA would defeat the Brits?


This is a critical question, we know the answer now, but back then I could guess TMT was not counting on EOKA to win but rather acted as if it was a matter of time for the Brits to put down the rebellion. If we are to assume such a scenario, then the role of TMT could be explained much differently.


Imo they were not convinced that Eoka would defeat the British. The FACT is Eoka never really defeated the British. Bananiot in this forum even claims that after Afxentiou's holocaust Eoka was about to collapse, the British knew ever single secret and hideout of Eoka. I don't know how true that is, but considering they have arrested so many keymen after Afxentious death i tend to beleive that was the case.Furthermore it was evident from what happened before the signing of the 1960 agreements that they were in a position TO BLACKMAIL.How could anyone BLACKMAIL an organisation like Eoka if that was about to defeat the British? :idea:

So coming back to your question the TMT was convinced or informed or had hard evidence, that the BRITISH WOULD LEAVE.

Of course like I said that's my personal opinion, I would be interested to hear what Bir thinks about it....


While we are waiting a response from Bir, I would like to comment on the above.

My impression is, TMT never believed EOKA would win the Brits, AKA British Empire, it is obvious. Reason. How can a few hundred rebels take on the Empire and win?

Your impression is, TMT knew, the Brits would leave... not sure how.

In either case, here is what I believe.

While EOKA was brewing, Denktas saw an opening. The opening was purely for personal gains. Denktas wanted power over the weak minority status of the TC community at the time. He couldn't do it alone. So he selected a few guys (we know all of them now) and founded TMT. Got help from Turkey bound political radicals in both "values" and money. We all know, the best way to dominate the TCs was by intimidation. It didn't matter if EOKA would win or not because either way, Denktas had established him self as the leader of the TCs. Here we are, today, Denktas achieved his goals and still actively involved, pulling strings... To him, this is success, on the expense of his own people. The TC claims, of TMT protecting against GC aggression, Enosis etc are invalid and rightfully rejected. The guilt rests solely with Denktas. He should be tried as a common war criminal, convicted and hung on a fig tree until he is dead.

And something else...

Denktas never considered a joined effort with EOKA to oust the Brits knowing he would be sidelined afterwards. This is why he never entertained the idea of even propose co-operation with EOKA, despite their differences. He wanted everything for him self, a power hungry man indeed.

It's not that complicated after-all.

End of story.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Sat May 08, 2010 5:44 pm

Pyro wrote:1)Bir could you please give us more information about this person?

Is he perhaps the equivalent of Tassos Papadopoulos? You know it is said that Tpap was the person responsible for gathering information and making the list of "traitors" that would be executed.The list always contained a lot of GC leftists.

2)Are you referring to post 1960 period? I think it's important to distinguish between those 2 periods. Before 1960 there was Eoka with dual "causes" (liberation from Brits+Enosis) and TMT on a wait and see status that also ended up to both dual "causes ( defense +preparation for Taksim)
After 1960 there was no Eoka, there were remnants of it organized in a)paramilitary groups b)part of the police c)selective units of National Guard under Grivas.They did not have widespread support from GCs considering they were all"anti-Makarios" at times when Makarios had more than 95% public support.
On the other hand TMT remained quite united after 1960 to the point that we even had TMT ministers working for Taksim, not to mention Denktash himself. In fact every single TC with some education (teachers like your father, doctors like Eroglu, lawyers like Denktash, University students like those who landed at Ernekoys-Kokkina) all became TMT officers working for the cause of taksim.

I am not really trying to blame anyone, just to point out that the cause for Taksim, seemed to have developed in a much more stable fashion than the cause of Enosis.




He was a medical doctor who was one of the 4 original founders of the TMT...Apart from Denktas there were two others,one from the Turkish embassy and one from Turkey (a colonel if I am not mistaken)...Since Denktas had to stay at a distance from the TMT it was Nalbantoglu who was the TC face of the TMT ,if you like...When my father thought he was in strife with the TMT it was Nalbanoglu that he went to see...But most people knew it was Denktas and the operational head of the TMT(a TA Colonel) who made the decisions in consultation with the Special War Office in Ankara...

Now,for the TCs EOKA never went away..As we knew that the real aim of Eoka was Enosis with Greece...AS far as the TMT was concerned EOKA simply grew and multiplied after 1960...And they knew the
struggle for Enosis continued...Makarios himself was talking about it openly till 1967 I believe...What made Makarios stop and reconsider were the coming to power of the Greek Junta...But till then the Akritas plan was in operation and Enosis was the goal...

It is true that in time the TMT came to symbolise Taksim,but that was not so at the beginning...My father joined the TMT to help prepare the TCs to defend themselves against any future EOKA or GC paramilitary attacks...I think the British put the fear of death in the TCs at the time,to be able to divide the two communities...
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Postby BirKibrisli » Sat May 08, 2010 6:11 pm

Georgios wrote:While we are waiting a response from Bir, I would like to comment on the above.

My impression is, TMT never believed EOKA would win the Brits, AKA British Empire, it is obvious. Reason. How can a few hundred rebels take on the Empire and win?

Your impression is, TMT knew, the Brits would leave... not sure how.

In either case, here is what I believe.

While EOKA was brewing, Denktas saw an opening. The opening was purely for personal gains. Denktas wanted power over the weak minority status of the TC community at the time. He couldn't do it alone. So he selected a few guys (we know all of them now) and founded TMT. Got help from Turkey bound political radicals in both "values" and money. We all know, the best way to dominate the TCs was by intimidation. It didn't matter if EOKA would win or not because either way, Denktas had established him self as the leader of the TCs. Here we are, today, Denktas achieved his goals and still actively involved, pulling strings... To him, this is success, on the expense of his own people. The TC claims, of TMT protecting against GC aggression, Enosis etc are invalid and rightfully rejected. The guilt rests solely with Denktas. He should be tried as a common war criminal, convicted and hung on a fig tree until he is dead.

And something else...

Denktas never considered a joined effort with EOKA to oust the Brits knowing he would be sidelined afterwards. This is why he never entertained the idea of even propose co-operation with EOKA, despite their differences. He wanted everything for him self, a power hungry man indeed.

It's not that complicated after-all.

End of story.



Georgio,you have to remember that the TMT was the "natural" child of the Turkish deep state and the Anglo-American intelligence agencies...Once the decision was made they simply picked Denktas (someone with a great lust for power) to put it in operation...You have to think of the geopolitical forces at work at the time...Cypriots had to be divided at all cost because they could not trust Makarios to tow the line...There had to be division and conflict to destabilise Makarios and prepare the ground for a possible Turkish invasion/intervension...Turkey was and is a trusted ally of the Anglo-Americans,and they are in Cyprus partly to protect Anglo-American interests...The TMT knew EOKA didn't have a chance of defeating the British state,but they also knew the British could not stay for much longer...How did they know? They were probably simply told by the British...

And don't make the mistake of assuming Denktas was only interested in personal power...Sure,he has a big ego and lust for power,but like most megalomaniacs he also believes in the greatness and rightiousness of the TC cause...He is probably the biggest living Turkish nationalist,and as such he commands great respect amongst Turkish military and political establishment...Even Erdogan and the AKP would not dare touch him,although many believe he was/is deeply involved in the Ergenekon business (deep state)...
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Postby Piratis » Sat May 08, 2010 6:31 pm

Liberating Cyprus like all other Greek islands and territories after centuries of being oppressed under foreign rulers (British, Turks etc) was the right of the Cypriot people. Just because a minority of Muslims was formed in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule this didn't mean that Cypriots didn't have the right for freedom. Most other Greek islands and territories had Muslim minorities as well. But just like Cyprus, the vast majority of the population was still Greek for 1000s of years, which is why it made perfect sense for those islands and mainland territories to be liberated and be part of a free Greek State. Rhodes for example, which also has a Turkish minority, was liberated from Italian rule in 1947 and naturally it united with the rest of Greece.

Now of course we can not expect from the Turks to understand our rights. For them we are the slaves whom they conquered, and we have no right to democratically determine the destiny of our own island.

Their mentality has not changed since 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.


If the Cypriot people had been allowed their freedom from back then, there wouldn't be any need for enosis (union) since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being integrated to the rest of the Greek state was not any less legitimate than independence. The Cypriot people should have been allowed to choose in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they wanted for their own island. Then there wouldn't be the need for any armed struggle or any EOKA. Given the option we might have even chosen a real independence. (unlike the one they gave us)

Since our legitimate options were denied by the foreign Imperialists we were forced to revolt against them. This revolution was against the British Colonialists, and not against the Muslim/Turkish minority. The Muslim minority was not targeted or attacked. Who was attacked were the British Colonialists and those Cypriots who collaborated with them. We have several other minorities in Cyprus, just like there are Muslim and other minorities in the rest of Greece, and we have no problem with them being in Cyprus.

The responsibility for the begging of the inter-communal conflict lies solely on the TCs and those who armed them and used them as their pawns, turning them against GCs in order to deny from Cypriots their freedom and in this way maintain troops and control over our island.

It is the TCs who in 1958 committed the first massacre and burned the homes and shops of innocent people for the sole reason that they were GCs. These is a fact. Now Bir is trying to circumvent this fact with imaginary stories about things that never happened anywhere except from the sick minds of those who imagined them in order to excuse their crimes. They imagined that GCs would supposedly attack them, and they used their own imaginary story as an excuse to commit massacres and burn the homes and shops of innocent people, starting in this way the inter-communal conflict.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat May 08, 2010 6:49 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
Pyro wrote:1)Bir could you please give us more information about this person?

Is he perhaps the equivalent of Tassos Papadopoulos? You know it is said that Tpap was the person responsible for gathering information and making the list of "traitors" that would be executed.The list always contained a lot of GC leftists.

2)Are you referring to post 1960 period? I think it's important to distinguish between those 2 periods. Before 1960 there was Eoka with dual "causes" (liberation from Brits+Enosis) and TMT on a wait and see status that also ended up to both dual "causes ( defense +preparation for Taksim)
After 1960 there was no Eoka, there were remnants of it organized in a)paramilitary groups b)part of the police c)selective units of National Guard under Grivas.They did not have widespread support from GCs considering they were all"anti-Makarios" at times when Makarios had more than 95% public support.
On the other hand TMT remained quite united after 1960 to the point that we even had TMT ministers working for Taksim, not to mention Denktash himself. In fact every single TC with some education (teachers like your father, doctors like Eroglu, lawyers like Denktash, University students like those who landed at Ernekoys-Kokkina) all became TMT officers working for the cause of taksim.

I am not really trying to blame anyone, just to point out that the cause for Taksim, seemed to have developed in a much more stable fashion than the cause of Enosis.




He was a medical doctor who was one of the 4 original founders of the TMT...Apart from Denktas there were two others,one from the Turkish embassy and one from Turkey (a colonel if I am not mistaken)...Since Denktas had to stay at a distance from the TMT it was Nalbantoglu who was the TC face of the TMT ,if you like...When my father thought he was in strife with the TMT it was Nalbanoglu that he went to see...But most people knew it was Denktas and the operational head of the TMT(a TA Colonel) who made the decisions in consultation with the Special War Office in Ankara...

Now,for the TCs EOKA never went away..As we knew that the real aim of Eoka was Enosis with Greece...AS far as the TMT was concerned EOKA simply grew and multiplied after 1960...And they knew the
struggle for Enosis continued...Makarios himself was talking about it openly till 1967 I believe...What made Makarios stop and reconsider were the coming to power of the Greek Junta...But till then the Akritas plan was in operation and Enosis was the goal...

It is true that in time the TMT came to symbolise Taksim,but that was not so at the beginning...My father joined the TMT to help prepare the TCs to defend themselves against any future EOKA or GC paramilitary attacks...I think the British put the fear of death in the TCs at the time,to be able to divide the two communities...


I think we have a very close understanding of the times Bir.

Sad as may sound unfortunately we are to what we are now. If you judge from this forum there is not even one TC living in Cyprus present. Not even VP. The only TCs present are expats from the 60s with not even 1% chance of ever returning....

I think we are entering a new phase where the settlers will dominate the north, and then who knows...
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat May 08, 2010 6:56 pm

Piratis wrote:Liberating Cyprus like all other Greek islands and territories after centuries of being oppressed under foreign rulers (British, Turks etc) was the right of the Cypriot people. Just because a minority of Muslims was formed in Cyprus during the Ottoman rule this didn't mean that Cypriots didn't have the right for freedom. Most other Greek islands and territories had Muslim minorities as well. But just like Cyprus, the vast majority of the population was still Greek for 1000s of years, which is why it made perfect sense for those islands and mainland territories to be liberated and be part of a free Greek State. Rhodes for example, which also has a Turkish minority, was liberated from Italian rule in 1947 and naturally it united with the rest of Greece.

Now of course we can not expect from the Turks to understand our rights. For them we are the slaves whom they conquered, and we have no right to democratically determine the destiny of our own island.

Their mentality has not changed since 1821:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.


If the Cypriot people had been allowed their freedom from back then, there wouldn't be any need for enosis (union) since Cyprus would be part of the initial Greek state.

The UN resolution for decolonization clearly defines "free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government."
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Being integrated to the rest of the Greek state was not any less legitimate than independence. The Cypriot people should have been allowed to choose in a democratic way which of the legitimate options they wanted for their own island. Then there wouldn't be the need for any armed struggle or any EOKA. Given the option we might have even chosen a real independence. (unlike the one they gave us)

Since our legitimate options were denied by the foreign Imperialists we were forced to revolt against them. This revolution was against the British Colonialists, and not against the Muslim/Turkish minority. The Muslim minority was not targeted or attacked. Who was attacked were the British Colonialists and those Cypriots who collaborated with them. We have several other minorities in Cyprus, just like there are Muslim and other minorities in the rest of Greece, and we have no problem with them being in Cyprus.

The responsibility for the begging of the inter-communal conflict lies solely on the TCs and those who armed them and used them as their pawns, turning them against GCs in order to deny from Cypriots their freedom and in this way maintain troops and control over our island.

It is the TCs who in 1958 committed the first massacre and burned the homes and shops of innocent people for the sole reason that they were GCs. These is a fact. Now Bir is trying to circumvent this fact with imaginary stories about things that never happened anywhere except from the sick minds of those who imagined them in order to excuse their crimes. They imagined that GCs would supposedly attack them, and they used their own imaginary story as an excuse to commit massacres and burn the homes and shops of innocent people, starting in this way the inter-communal conflict.


Piratis we are at what we are TODAY. (see my previous post).
What do you think is the future in Cyprus, considering that in just 20 years from now the original TCs will be history and the north will be mostly settlers?
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