Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

I think it is a mistake to think of these "historical" figures in black and white terms...As they say,'one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'...I want to correct some misconceptions about the TMT...Firstly,the TMT was not founded to advance the cause of Taksim...

Please explain why TMT was founded then...

Yes,they did embrace that later on but it was found to protect the TC community from what they thought was the inevitable widespread attacks from EOKA or other GC paramilitaries...Secondly,the TMT's sway over the average TC is largely exaggerated...Most TCs hero-worshipped the TMT and its commanders,very much like how most GCs hero-worship the EOKA today... And yes, the TMT did turn on those TCs it considered as traitors to the cause,and they did murder those they could not bring to their knees...


Can you provide specific numbers of murdered TCs or approx? What are we talking about? It it tens or hundreds?




The average TC would have considered these murders as "necessary evils",and keep on supporting the TMT for it was their only protection (so the believed) against "greater" evil...I don't believe there is anybody alive today who can prove that Denktas did anything "wrong" personally,as founder of the TMT...Let's not forget that the operational command of the TMT was handed over to Turkish Army officers pretty much from the beginning...

It may be true... no one is alive to prove Denktas wrongdoing, but surely Denktas knew of the "dark" side of the TMT (intimidating/killing TCs) and yet, never decided to pull out of TMT, therefor, we are to assume Denktas (knowingly) was approving of the atrocities. Well, he is guilty after all, don't you think?



The other thing to remember is this: Not everyone who joined the TMT were of good and noble character motivated to serve his community...Some were plain and simple thugs who were in it for personal gain,and who were used by those higher up to do the "dirty" work for them...

Also known as "buffers" sort of speak...

Those who suffered most from TMT's excessess (after those murdered by the TMT that is) were the good souls who joined the TMT to help protect their community,but couldn't stomach certain TMT practices...Most of them went into voluntary exile in countries like England and Australia,faithfully keeping their oaths of silence,and lived very unhappy and unfulfilled lives,and died very bitter persons...

Why keep their silence? Most exiled people make it loud & clear, to their host countries, of the atrocities they left behind... Could the TMT get to them, even as far as Australia?

Who is afraid of TMT today? Which planet are you from? Uranus?

YFred, bugger off!!!

I am waiting for Bir to comment not you. Bir's answers make sense, you just make noise.

Don't dismiss YFred so lightly,Georgio...His answers make sense too,but you have to dig deep to understand him...

Nothing is black and white,as dear Pyro explained in his penetrating post above..It was inevitable to have the notion of Taksim as soon as you had the ENOSIS notion...Similarly with the TMT and EOKA...One gave birth to the other...I differ from Pyro in that,I believe it was the fear of the EOKA and what they might do to the TCs, IF they managed to kick the British out which motivated its founding...Enosis and the EOKA were the catalysts...The TCs never bought the argument that EOKA was a freedom movement...for them it was an enslaving movement,wanting to make them slaves of Greece...But again,nothing is balck and white,many shades in between...While the Turkish govenment in the 50s (Menderes) showed little interest in Cyprus,the "Deep State",represented by the Special War Office (Ozel Harp Daires) was very interested indeed...Some argue that they used Cyprus and the TMT as a laboratory to develop their covert,underground operations they used so successfully for so long against successive Turkish governments,to protect the interests of the Military/bureacratic/industrialist ruling Kemalist elite...(which are now in a deadly struggle with Erdogan for their survival...see,Ergenekon).

One could say that during the 50s it was the Deep State, and their natural baby with the British and the Americans,the TMT, which embraced the TAksim cause and dragged the Turkish government into line...With the Military coup in 1960 Cyprus offically became "national cause' for Turkey and remained so till the ascent of Erdogan and his AKP...

Denktas being a Turanist (pan-Turkist) was more than willing to be the spiritual leader of the TMT,and yes,you are right,he cannot absolve himself from the crimes and excessess of the TMT...He did his best to hide behind his hatchet man,Dr Burhan Nalbantoglu,but he must've known and approved the more serious TMT actions in advance...Nalbantoglu was probably the only Turkish Cypriot who had enough evidence to convict Denktas in a court of law...He is long dead,of course...

But,I repeat,the TMT never had the kind of hold and sway over the TC community as the GCs like to believe..Personally,I was more scared of my grandmother than the TMT man in the village...
The average TC liked to know there was TMT ready to protect him against the EOKA (which was considered as bloodthirsty terrorists) but didn't like to take orders from them regarding their day to day lives...And certainly it wasn't the fear of TMT which made tens of thousands of TCs leave their villages and towns to seek shelter in enclaves...It was the fear of the EOKA and the GC paramilitaries...

People kept their vows of silence not because they feared the TMT once they were out of Cyprus (I know of no incident where the TMT tried to intimidate or silence someone overseas),but out of a sense of duty and royalty to their community...They thought it was their patriotic duty to honour their oath,I believe...

[georgios100]

I think it is a mistake to think of these "historical" figures in black and white terms...As they say,'one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'...I want to correct some misconceptions about the TMT...Firstly,the TMT was not founded to advance the cause of Taksim...

Please explain why TMT was founded then...

Yes,they did embrace that later on but it was found to protect the TC community from what they thought was the inevitable widespread attacks from EOKA or other GC paramilitaries...Secondly,the TMT's sway over the average TC is largely exaggerated...Most TCs hero-worshipped the TMT and its commanders,very much like how most GCs hero-worship the EOKA today... And yes, the TMT did turn on those TCs it considered as traitors to the cause,and they did murder those they could not bring to their knees...


Can you provide specific numbers of murdered TCs or approx? What are we talking about? It it tens or hundreds?




The average TC would have considered these murders as "necessary evils",and keep on supporting the TMT for it was their only protection (so the believed) against "greater" evil...I don't believe there is anybody alive today who can prove that Denktas did anything "wrong" personally,as founder of the TMT...Let's not forget that the operational command of the TMT was handed over to Turkish Army officers pretty much from the beginning...

It may be true... no one is alive to prove Denktas wrongdoing, but surely Denktas knew of the "dark" side of the TMT (intimidating/killing TCs) and yet, never decided to pull out of TMT, therefor, we are to assume Denktas (knowingly) was approving of the atrocities. Well, he is guilty after all, don't you think?



The other thing to remember is this: Not everyone who joined the TMT were of good and noble character motivated to serve his community...Some were plain and simple thugs who were in it for personal gain,and who were used by those higher up to do the "dirty" work for them...

Also known as "buffers" sort of speak...

Those who suffered most from TMT's excessess (after those murdered by the TMT that is) were the good souls who joined the TMT to help protect their community,but couldn't stomach certain TMT practices...Most of them went into voluntary exile in countries like England and Australia,faithfully keeping their oaths of silence,and lived very unhappy and unfulfilled lives,and died very bitter persons...

Why keep their silence? Most exiled people make it loud & clear, to their host countries, of the atrocities they left behind... Could the TMT get to them, even as far as Australia?

Who is afraid of TMT today? Which planet are you from? Uranus?

YFred, bugger off!!!

I am waiting for Bir to comment not you. Bir's answers make sense, you just make noise.

Don't dismiss YFred so lightly,Georgio...His answers make sense too,but you have to dig deep to understand him...

Nothing is black and white,as dear Pyro explained in his penetrating post above..It was inevitable to have the notion of Taksim as soon as you had the ENOSIS notion...Similarly with the TMT and EOKA...One gave birth to the other...I differ from Pyro in that,I believe it was the fear of the EOKA and what they might do to the TCs, IF they managed to kick the British out which motivated its founding...Enosis and the EOKA were the catalysts...The TCs never bought the argument that EOKA was a freedom movement...for them it was an enslaving movement,wanting to make them slaves of Greece...But again,nothing is balck and white,many shades in between...While the Turkish govenment in the 50s (Menderes) showed little interest in Cyprus,the "Deep State",represented by the Special War Office (Ozel Harp Daires) was very interested indeed...Some argue that they used Cyprus and the TMT as a laboratory to develop their covert,underground operations they used so successfully for so long against successive Turkish governments,to protect the interests of the Military/bureacratic/industrialist ruling Kemalist elite...(which are now in a deadly struggle with Erdogan for their survival...see,Ergenekon).

One could say that during the 50s it was the Deep State, and their natural baby with the British and the Americans,the TMT, which embraced the TAksim cause and dragged the Turkish government into line...With the Military coup in 1960 Cyprus offically became "national cause' for Turkey and remained so till the ascent of Erdogan and his AKP...

Denktas being a Turanist (pan-Turkist) was more than willing to be the spiritual leader of the TMT,and yes,you are right,he cannot absolve himself from the crimes and excessess of the TMT...He did his best to hide behind his hatchet man,Dr Burhan Nalbantoglu,but he must've known and approved the more serious TMT actions in advance...Nalbantoglu was probably the only Turkish Cypriot who had enough evidence to convict Denktas in a court of law...He is long dead,of course...

But,I repeat,the TMT never had the kind of hold and sway over the TC community as the GCs like to believe..Personally,I was more scared of my grandmother than the TMT man in the village...
The average TC liked to know there was TMT ready to protect him against the EOKA (which was considered as bloodthirsty terrorists) but didn't like to take orders from them regarding their day to day lives...And certainly it wasn't the fear of TMT which made tens of thousands of TCs leave their villages and towns to seek shelter in enclaves...It was the fear of the EOKA and the GC paramilitaries...

People kept their vows of silence not because they feared the TMT once they were out of Cyprus (I know of no incident where the TMT tried to intimidate or silence someone overseas),but out of a sense of duty and royalty to their community...They thought it was their patriotic duty to honour their oath,I believe...

Thank you Bir, as always you take the time to enlighten us with details and insides not always found in a history book but by word of mouth.

Denktas, as I noted, was indeed aware of his surroundings and it is well understood by all of us, of his knowledge/approval of the events that unfolded during those troubled times. Some may say, he had no choice but to participate and order some of those cruel acts of violence as his "duty" to protect his people from EOKA or others. This excuse may suit him fine but in the eyes of the ordinary Cypriots and my self, I can assure you, he had numerous other ways to fullfil his oblications as a leader with other means and measures, in lieu of his mistaken chosen "tools". I regret the fact that he is still around "pulling" strings, now and then. Perhaps proof is out there but I doubt anyone is willing to come forward.

I would like to ask you this:

Was TMT convinced EOKA would defeat the Brits?

This is a critical question, we know the answer now, but back then I could guess TMT was not counting on EOKA to win but rather acted as if it was a matter of time for the Brits to put down the rebellion. If we are to assume such a scenario, then the role of TMT could be explained much differently.

[Pyrpolizer]

I think it is a mistake to think of these "historical" figures in black and white terms...As they say,'one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'...I want to correct some misconceptions about the TMT...Firstly,the TMT was not founded to advance the cause of Taksim...

Please explain why TMT was founded then...

Yes,they did embrace that later on but it was found to protect the TC community from what they thought was the inevitable widespread attacks from EOKA or other GC paramilitaries...Secondly,the TMT's sway over the average TC is largely exaggerated...Most TCs hero-worshipped the TMT and its commanders,very much like how most GCs hero-worship the EOKA today... And yes, the TMT did turn on those TCs it considered as traitors to the cause,and they did murder those they could not bring to their knees...


Can you provide specific numbers of murdered TCs or approx? What are we talking about? It it tens or hundreds?




The average TC would have considered these murders as "necessary evils",and keep on supporting the TMT for it was their only protection (so the believed) against "greater" evil...I don't believe there is anybody alive today who can prove that Denktas did anything "wrong" personally,as founder of the TMT...Let's not forget that the operational command of the TMT was handed over to Turkish Army officers pretty much from the beginning...

It may be true... no one is alive to prove Denktas wrongdoing, but surely Denktas knew of the "dark" side of the TMT (intimidating/killing TCs) and yet, never decided to pull out of TMT, therefor, we are to assume Denktas (knowingly) was approving of the atrocities. Well, he is guilty after all, don't you think?



The other thing to remember is this: Not everyone who joined the TMT were of good and noble character motivated to serve his community...Some were plain and simple thugs who were in it for personal gain,and who were used by those higher up to do the "dirty" work for them...

Also known as "buffers" sort of speak...

Those who suffered most from TMT's excessess (after those murdered by the TMT that is) were the good souls who joined the TMT to help protect their community,but couldn't stomach certain TMT practices...Most of them went into voluntary exile in countries like England and Australia,faithfully keeping their oaths of silence,and lived very unhappy and unfulfilled lives,and died very bitter persons...

Why keep their silence? Most exiled people make it loud & clear, to their host countries, of the atrocities they left behind... Could the TMT get to them, even as far as Australia?

Who is afraid of TMT today? Which planet are you from? Uranus?

YFred, bugger off!!!

I am waiting for Bir to comment not you. Bir's answers make sense, you just make noise.

Don't dismiss YFred so lightly,Georgio...His answers make sense too,but you have to dig deep to understand him...

Nothing is black and white,as dear Pyro explained in his penetrating post above..It was inevitable to have the notion of Taksim as soon as you had the ENOSIS notion...Similarly with the TMT and EOKA...One gave birth to the other...I differ from Pyro in that,I believe it was the fear of the EOKA and what they might do to the TCs, IF they managed to kick the British out which motivated its founding...Enosis and the EOKA were the catalysts...The TCs never bought the argument that EOKA was a freedom movement...for them it was an enslaving movement,wanting to make them slaves of Greece...But again,nothing is balck and white,many shades in between...While the Turkish govenment in the 50s (Menderes) showed little interest in Cyprus,the "Deep State",represented by the Special War Office (Ozel Harp Daires) was very interested indeed...Some argue that they used Cyprus and the TMT as a laboratory to develop their covert,underground operations they used so successfully for so long against successive Turkish governments,to protect the interests of the Military/bureacratic/industrialist ruling Kemalist elite...(which are now in a deadly struggle with Erdogan for their survival...see,Ergenekon).

One could say that during the 50s it was the Deep State, and their natural baby with the British and the Americans,the TMT, which embraced the TAksim cause and dragged the Turkish government into line...With the Military coup in 1960 Cyprus offically became "national cause' for Turkey and remained so till the ascent of Erdogan and his AKP...

Denktas being a Turanist (pan-Turkist) was more than willing to be the spiritual leader of the TMT,and yes,you are right,he cannot absolve himself from the crimes and excessess of the TMT...He did his best to hide behind his hatchet man,Dr Burhan Nalbantoglu,but he must've known and approved the more serious TMT actions in advance...Nalbantoglu was probably the only Turkish Cypriot who had enough evidence to convict Denktas in a court of law...He is long dead,of course...

But,I repeat,the TMT never had the kind of hold and sway over the TC community as the GCs like to believe..Personally,I was more scared of my grandmother than the TMT man in the village...
The average TC liked to know there was TMT ready to protect him against the EOKA (which was considered as bloodthirsty terrorists) but didn't like to take orders from them regarding their day to day lives...And certainly it wasn't the fear of TMT which made tens of thousands of TCs leave their villages and towns to seek shelter in enclaves...It was the fear of the EOKA and the GC paramilitaries...

People kept their vows of silence not because they feared the TMT once they were out of Cyprus (I know of no incident where the TMT tried to intimidate or silence someone overseas),but out of a sense of duty and royalty to their community...They thought it was their patriotic duty to honour their oath,I believe...

1)Bir could you please give us more information about this person?

Is he perhaps the equivalent of Tassos Papadopoulos? You know it is said that Tpap was the person responsible for gathering information and making the list of "traitors" that would be executed.The list always contained a lot of GC leftists.

2)Are you referring to post 1960 period? I think it's important to distinguish between those 2 periods. Before 1960 there was Eoka with dual "causes" (liberation from Brits+Enosis) and TMT on a wait and see status that also ended up to both dual "causes ( defense +preparation for Taksim)
After 1960 there was no Eoka, there were remnants of it organized in a)paramilitary groups b)part of the police c)selective units of National Guard under Grivas.They did not have widespread support from GCs considering they were all"anti-Makarios" at times when Makarios had more than 95% public support.
On the other hand TMT remained quite united after 1960 to the point that we even had TMT ministers working for Taksim, not to mention Denktash himself. In fact every single TC with some education (teachers like your father, doctors like Eroglu, lawyers like Denktash, University students like those who landed at Ernekoys-Kokkina) all became TMT officers working for the cause of taksim.

I am not really trying to blame anyone, just to point out that the cause for Taksim, seemed to have developed in a much more stable fashion than the cause of Enosis.

[YFred]

I think it is a mistake to think of these "historical" figures in black and white terms...As they say,'one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'...I want to correct some misconceptions about the TMT...Firstly,the TMT was not founded to advance the cause of Taksim...

Please explain why TMT was founded then...

Yes,they did embrace that later on but it was found to protect the TC community from what they thought was the inevitable widespread attacks from EOKA or other GC paramilitaries...Secondly,the TMT's sway over the average TC is largely exaggerated...Most TCs hero-worshipped the TMT and its commanders,very much like how most GCs hero-worship the EOKA today... And yes, the TMT did turn on those TCs it considered as traitors to the cause,and they did murder those they could not bring to their knees...


Can you provide specific numbers of murdered TCs or approx? What are we talking about? It it tens or hundreds?




The average TC would have considered these murders as "necessary evils",and keep on supporting the TMT for it was their only protection (so the believed) against "greater" evil...I don't believe there is anybody alive today who can prove that Denktas did anything "wrong" personally,as founder of the TMT...Let's not forget that the operational command of the TMT was handed over to Turkish Army officers pretty much from the beginning...

It may be true... no one is alive to prove Denktas wrongdoing, but surely Denktas knew of the "dark" side of the TMT (intimidating/killing TCs) and yet, never decided to pull out of TMT, therefor, we are to assume Denktas (knowingly) was approving of the atrocities. Well, he is guilty after all, don't you think?



The other thing to remember is this: Not everyone who joined the TMT were of good and noble character motivated to serve his community...Some were plain and simple thugs who were in it for personal gain,and who were used by those higher up to do the "dirty" work for them...

Also known as "buffers" sort of speak...

Those who suffered most from TMT's excessess (after those murdered by the TMT that is) were the good souls who joined the TMT to help protect their community,but couldn't stomach certain TMT practices...Most of them went into voluntary exile in countries like England and Australia,faithfully keeping their oaths of silence,and lived very unhappy and unfulfilled lives,and died very bitter persons...

Why keep their silence? Most exiled people make it loud & clear, to their host countries, of the atrocities they left behind... Could the TMT get to them, even as far as Australia?

Who is afraid of TMT today? Which planet are you from? Uranus?

YFred, bugger off!!!

I am waiting for Bir to comment not you. Bir's answers make sense, you just make noise.

Don't dismiss YFred so lightly,Georgio...His answers make sense too,but you have to dig deep to understand him...

Nothing is black and white,as dear Pyro explained in his penetrating post above..It was inevitable to have the notion of Taksim as soon as you had the ENOSIS notion...Similarly with the TMT and EOKA...One gave birth to the other...I differ from Pyro in that,I believe it was the fear of the EOKA and what they might do to the TCs, IF they managed to kick the British out which motivated its founding...Enosis and the EOKA were the catalysts...The TCs never bought the argument that EOKA was a freedom movement...for them it was an enslaving movement,wanting to make them slaves of Greece...But again,nothing is balck and white,many shades in between...While the Turkish govenment in the 50s (Menderes) showed little interest in Cyprus,the "Deep State",represented by the Special War Office (Ozel Harp Daires) was very interested indeed...Some argue that they used Cyprus and the TMT as a laboratory to develop their covert,underground operations they used so successfully for so long against successive Turkish governments,to protect the interests of the Military/bureacratic/industrialist ruling Kemalist elite...(which are now in a deadly struggle with Erdogan for their survival...see,Ergenekon).

One could say that during the 50s it was the Deep State, and their natural baby with the British and the Americans,the TMT, which embraced the TAksim cause and dragged the Turkish government into line...With the Military coup in 1960 Cyprus offically became "national cause' for Turkey and remained so till the ascent of Erdogan and his AKP...

Denktas being a Turanist (pan-Turkist) was more than willing to be the spiritual leader of the TMT,and yes,you are right,he cannot absolve himself from the crimes and excessess of the TMT...He did his best to hide behind his hatchet man,Dr Burhan Nalbantoglu,but he must've known and approved the more serious TMT actions in advance...Nalbantoglu was probably the only Turkish Cypriot who had enough evidence to convict Denktas in a court of law...He is long dead,of course...

But,I repeat,the TMT never had the kind of hold and sway over the TC community as the GCs like to believe..Personally,I was more scared of my grandmother than the TMT man in the village...
The average TC liked to know there was TMT ready to protect him against the EOKA (which was considered as bloodthirsty terrorists) but didn't like to take orders from them regarding their day to day lives...And certainly it wasn't the fear of TMT which made tens of thousands of TCs leave their villages and towns to seek shelter in enclaves...It was the fear of the EOKA and the GC paramilitaries...

People kept their vows of silence not because they feared the TMT once they were out of Cyprus (I know of no incident where the TMT tried to intimidate or silence someone overseas),but out of a sense of duty and royalty to their community...They thought it was their patriotic duty to honour their oath,I believe...

1)Bir could you please give us more information about this person?

Is he perhaps the equivalent of Tassos Papadopoulos? You know it is said that Tpap was the person responsible for gathering information and making the list of "traitors" that would be executed.The list always contained a lot of GC leftists.

2)Are you referring to post 1960 period? I think it's important to distinguish between those 2 periods. Before 1960 there was Eoka with dual "causes" (liberation from Brits+Enosis) and TMT on a wait and see status that also ended up to both dual "causes ( defense +preparation for Taksim)
After 1960 there was no Eoka, there were remnants of it organized in a)paramilitary groups b)part of the police c)selective units of National Guard under Grivas.They did not have widespread support from GCs considering they were all"anti-Makarios" at times when Makarios had more than 95% public support.
On the other hand TMT remained quite united after 1960 to the point that we even had TMT ministers working for Taksim, not to mention Denktash himself. In fact every single TC with some education (teachers like your father, doctors like Eroglu, lawyers like Denktash, University students like those who landed at Ernekoys-Kokkina) all became TMT officers working for the cause of taksim.

I am not really trying to blame anyone, just to point out that the cause for Taksim, seemed to have developed in a much more stable fashion than the cause of Enosis.

You see Pyro baby, I know a London university educated GC in London who does not accept that TPapa was involved in eoka at all. He was just a lawyer he keeps claiming.

Now Pyro baby, how do you explain such ignorance in such educated people and is there any hope for the peasants?

In Lurucina the peasants are more aware of reality than your average educated GCs. Visit any kahve and you will see what I mean.
Fancy that?

Bir, do you agree that Enosis + Taksim = Nato, even though participants in those activities may not have been aware of the final plan?

[Pyrpolizer]

I think it is a mistake to think of these "historical" figures in black and white terms...As they say,'one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'...I want to correct some misconceptions about the TMT...Firstly,the TMT was not founded to advance the cause of Taksim...

Please explain why TMT was founded then...

Yes,they did embrace that later on but it was found to protect the TC community from what they thought was the inevitable widespread attacks from EOKA or other GC paramilitaries...Secondly,the TMT's sway over the average TC is largely exaggerated...Most TCs hero-worshipped the TMT and its commanders,very much like how most GCs hero-worship the EOKA today... And yes, the TMT did turn on those TCs it considered as traitors to the cause,and they did murder those they could not bring to their knees...


Can you provide specific numbers of murdered TCs or approx? What are we talking about? It it tens or hundreds?




The average TC would have considered these murders as "necessary evils",and keep on supporting the TMT for it was their only protection (so the believed) against "greater" evil...I don't believe there is anybody alive today who can prove that Denktas did anything "wrong" personally,as founder of the TMT...Let's not forget that the operational command of the TMT was handed over to Turkish Army officers pretty much from the beginning...

It may be true... no one is alive to prove Denktas wrongdoing, but surely Denktas knew of the "dark" side of the TMT (intimidating/killing TCs) and yet, never decided to pull out of TMT, therefor, we are to assume Denktas (knowingly) was approving of the atrocities. Well, he is guilty after all, don't you think?



The other thing to remember is this: Not everyone who joined the TMT were of good and noble character motivated to serve his community...Some were plain and simple thugs who were in it for personal gain,and who were used by those higher up to do the "dirty" work for them...

Also known as "buffers" sort of speak...

Those who suffered most from TMT's excessess (after those murdered by the TMT that is) were the good souls who joined the TMT to help protect their community,but couldn't stomach certain TMT practices...Most of them went into voluntary exile in countries like England and Australia,faithfully keeping their oaths of silence,and lived very unhappy and unfulfilled lives,and died very bitter persons...

Why keep their silence? Most exiled people make it loud & clear, to their host countries, of the atrocities they left behind... Could the TMT get to them, even as far as Australia?

Who is afraid of TMT today? Which planet are you from? Uranus?

YFred, bugger off!!!

I am waiting for Bir to comment not you. Bir's answers make sense, you just make noise.

Don't dismiss YFred so lightly,Georgio...His answers make sense too,but you have to dig deep to understand him...

Nothing is black and white,as dear Pyro explained in his penetrating post above..It was inevitable to have the notion of Taksim as soon as you had the ENOSIS notion...Similarly with the TMT and EOKA...One gave birth to the other...I differ from Pyro in that,I believe it was the fear of the EOKA and what they might do to the TCs, IF they managed to kick the British out which motivated its founding...Enosis and the EOKA were the catalysts...The TCs never bought the argument that EOKA was a freedom movement...for them it was an enslaving movement,wanting to make them slaves of Greece...But again,nothing is balck and white,many shades in between...While the Turkish govenment in the 50s (Menderes) showed little interest in Cyprus,the "Deep State",represented by the Special War Office (Ozel Harp Daires) was very interested indeed...Some argue that they used Cyprus and the TMT as a laboratory to develop their covert,underground operations they used so successfully for so long against successive Turkish governments,to protect the interests of the Military/bureacratic/industrialist ruling Kemalist elite...(which are now in a deadly struggle with Erdogan for their survival...see,Ergenekon).

One could say that during the 50s it was the Deep State, and their natural baby with the British and the Americans,the TMT, which embraced the TAksim cause and dragged the Turkish government into line...With the Military coup in 1960 Cyprus offically became "national cause' for Turkey and remained so till the ascent of Erdogan and his AKP...

Denktas being a Turanist (pan-Turkist) was more than willing to be the spiritual leader of the TMT,and yes,you are right,he cannot absolve himself from the crimes and excessess of the TMT...He did his best to hide behind his hatchet man,Dr Burhan Nalbantoglu,but he must've known and approved the more serious TMT actions in advance...Nalbantoglu was probably the only Turkish Cypriot who had enough evidence to convict Denktas in a court of law...He is long dead,of course...

But,I repeat,the TMT never had the kind of hold and sway over the TC community as the GCs like to believe..Personally,I was more scared of my grandmother than the TMT man in the village...
The average TC liked to know there was TMT ready to protect him against the EOKA (which was considered as bloodthirsty terrorists) but didn't like to take orders from them regarding their day to day lives...And certainly it wasn't the fear of TMT which made tens of thousands of TCs leave their villages and towns to seek shelter in enclaves...It was the fear of the EOKA and the GC paramilitaries...

People kept their vows of silence not because they feared the TMT once they were out of Cyprus (I know of no incident where the TMT tried to intimidate or silence someone overseas),but out of a sense of duty and royalty to their community...They thought it was their patriotic duty to honour their oath,I believe...

Thank you Bir, as always you take the time to enlighten us with details and insides not always found in a history book but by word of mouth.

Denktas, as I noted, was indeed aware of his surroundings and it is well understood by all of us, of his knowledge/approval of the events that unfolded during those troubled times. Some may say, he had no choice but to participate and order some of those cruel acts of violence as his "duty" to protect his people from EOKA or others. This excuse may suit him fine but in the eyes of the ordinary Cypriots and my self, I can assure you, he had numerous other ways to fullfil his oblications as a leader with other means and measures, in lieu of his mistaken chosen "tools". I regret the fact that he is still around "pulling" strings, now and then. Perhaps proof is out there but I doubt anyone is willing to come forward.

I would like to ask you this:

Was TMT convinced EOKA would defeat the Brits?

This is a critical question, we know the answer now, but back then I could guess TMT was not counting on EOKA to win but rather acted as if it was a matter of time for the Brits to put down the rebellion. If we are to assume such a scenario, then the role of TMT could be explained much differently.

Imo they were not convinced that Eoka would defeat the British. The FACT is Eoka never really defeated the British. Bananiot in this forum even claims that after Afxentiou's holocaust Eoka was about to collapse, the British knew ever single secret and hideout of Eoka. I don't know how true that is, but considering they have arrested so many keymen after Afxentious death i tend to beleive that was the case.Furthermore it was evident from what happened before the signing of the 1960 agreements that they were in a position TO BLACKMAIL.How could anyone BLACKMAIL an organisation like Eoka if that was about to defeat the British?

So coming back to your question the TMT was convinced or informed or had hard evidenc, that the BRITISH WOULD LEAVE.

Of course like I said that's my personal opinion, I would be interested to hear vwhat Bir thinks about it....

[Pyrpolizer]

You see Pyro baby, I know a London university educated GC in London who does not accept that TPapa was involved in eoka at all. He was just a lawyer he keeps claiming.

Now Pyro baby, how do you explain such ignorance in such educated people and is there any hope for the peasants?

In Lurucina the peasants are more aware of reality than your average educated GCs. Visit any kahve and you will see what I mean.
Fancy that?

Bir, do you agree that Enosis + Taksim = Nato, even though participants in those activities may not have been aware of the final plan?

You mean peasants like you who never even climbed a fig tree? But babys like you why would they climb one? Much better under the shade, no?

[YFred]

You see Pyro baby, I know a London university educated GC in London who does not accept that TPapa was involved in eoka at all. He was just a lawyer he keeps claiming.

Now Pyro baby, how do you explain such ignorance in such educated people and is there any hope for the peasants?

In Lurucina the peasants are more aware of reality than your average educated GCs. Visit any kahve and you will see what I mean.
Fancy that?

Bir, do you agree that Enosis + Taksim = Nato, even though participants in those activities may not have been aware of the final plan?

You mean peasants like you who never even climbed a fig tree? But babys like you why would they climb one? Much better under the shade, no?

Pyro baby you are like a blind dear. Have you ever climbed a fig tree? I know you have not and nor has the person who claimed it. Becasue if you did you'd know why you can't climb it.

Now about under the shade, my old man had a saying about the Bafiti workers he used to employ " Armut piş agzıma düsh".
Us Lurucadis worked hard for our living and still do to this day.

[denizaksulu]

I think it is a mistake to think of these "historical" figures in black and white terms...As they say,'one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'...I want to correct some misconceptions about the TMT...Firstly,the TMT was not founded to advance the cause of Taksim...

Please explain why TMT was founded then...

Yes,they did embrace that later on but it was found to protect the TC community from what they thought was the inevitable widespread attacks from EOKA or other GC paramilitaries...Secondly,the TMT's sway over the average TC is largely exaggerated...Most TCs hero-worshipped the TMT and its commanders,very much like how most GCs hero-worship the EOKA today... And yes, the TMT did turn on those TCs it considered as traitors to the cause,and they did murder those they could not bring to their knees...


Can you provide specific numbers of murdered TCs or approx? What are we talking about? It it tens or hundreds?




The average TC would have considered these murders as "necessary evils",and keep on supporting the TMT for it was their only protection (so the believed) against "greater" evil...I don't believe there is anybody alive today who can prove that Denktas did anything "wrong" personally,as founder of the TMT...Let's not forget that the operational command of the TMT was handed over to Turkish Army officers pretty much from the beginning...

It may be true... no one is alive to prove Denktas wrongdoing, but surely Denktas knew of the "dark" side of the TMT (intimidating/killing TCs) and yet, never decided to pull out of TMT, therefor, we are to assume Denktas (knowingly) was approving of the atrocities. Well, he is guilty after all, don't you think?



The other thing to remember is this: Not everyone who joined the TMT were of good and noble character motivated to serve his community...Some were plain and simple thugs who were in it for personal gain,and who were used by those higher up to do the "dirty" work for them...

Also known as "buffers" sort of speak...

Those who suffered most from TMT's excessess (after those murdered by the TMT that is) were the good souls who joined the TMT to help protect their community,but couldn't stomach certain TMT practices...Most of them went into voluntary exile in countries like England and Australia,faithfully keeping their oaths of silence,and lived very unhappy and unfulfilled lives,and died very bitter persons...

Why keep their silence? Most exiled people make it loud & clear, to their host countries, of the atrocities they left behind... Could the TMT get to them, even as far as Australia?

Who is afraid of TMT today? Which planet are you from? Uranus?

YFred, bugger off!!!

I am waiting for Bir to comment not you. Bir's answers make sense, you just make noise.

Don't dismiss YFred so lightly,Georgio...His answers make sense too,but you have to dig deep to understand him...

Nothing is black and white,as dear Pyro explained in his penetrating post above..It was inevitable to have the notion of Taksim as soon as you had the ENOSIS notion...Similarly with the TMT and EOKA...One gave birth to the other...I differ from Pyro in that,I believe it was the fear of the EOKA and what they might do to the TCs, IF they managed to kick the British out which motivated its founding...Enosis and the EOKA were the catalysts...The TCs never bought the argument that EOKA was a freedom movement...for them it was an enslaving movement,wanting to make them slaves of Greece...But again,nothing is balck and white,many shades in between...While the Turkish govenment in the 50s (Menderes) showed little interest in Cyprus,the "Deep State",represented by the Special War Office (Ozel Harp Daires) was very interested indeed...Some argue that they used Cyprus and the TMT as a laboratory to develop their covert,underground operations they used so successfully for so long against successive Turkish governments,to protect the interests of the Military/bureacratic/industrialist ruling Kemalist elite...(which are now in a deadly struggle with Erdogan for their survival...see,Ergenekon).

One could say that during the 50s it was the Deep State, and their natural baby with the British and the Americans,the TMT, which embraced the TAksim cause and dragged the Turkish government into line...With the Military coup in 1960 Cyprus offically became "national cause' for Turkey and remained so till the ascent of Erdogan and his AKP...

Denktas being a Turanist (pan-Turkist) was more than willing to be the spiritual leader of the TMT,and yes,you are right,he cannot absolve himself from the crimes and excessess of the TMT...He did his best to hide behind his hatchet man,Dr Burhan Nalbantoglu,but he must've known and approved the more serious TMT actions in advance...Nalbantoglu was probably the only Turkish Cypriot who had enough evidence to convict Denktas in a court of law...He is long dead,of course...

But,I repeat,the TMT never had the kind of hold and sway over the TC community as the GCs like to believe..Personally,I was more scared of my grandmother than the TMT man in the village...
The average TC liked to know there was TMT ready to protect him against the EOKA (which was considered as bloodthirsty terrorists) but didn't like to take orders from them regarding their day to day lives...And certainly it wasn't the fear of TMT which made tens of thousands of TCs leave their villages and towns to seek shelter in enclaves...It was the fear of the EOKA and the GC paramilitaries...

People kept their vows of silence not because they feared the TMT once they were out of Cyprus (I know of no incident where the TMT tried to intimidate or silence someone overseas),but out of a sense of duty and royalty to their community...They thought it was their patriotic duty to honour their oath,I believe...

1)Bir could you please give us more information about this person?

Is he perhaps the equivalent of Tassos Papadopoulos? You know it is said that Tpap was the person responsible for gathering information and making the list of "traitors" that would be executed.The list always contained a lot of GC leftists.

2)Are you referring to post 1960 period? I think it's important to distinguish between those 2 periods. Before 1960 there was Eoka with dual "causes" (liberation from Brits+Enosis) and TMT on a wait and see status that also ended up to both dual "causes ( defense +preparation for Taksim)
After 1960 there was no Eoka, there were remnants of it organized in a)paramilitary groups b)part of the police c)selective units of National Guard under Grivas.They did not have widespread support from GCs considering they were all"anti-Makarios" at times when Makarios had more than 95% public support.
On the other hand TMT remained quite united after 1960 to the point that we even had TMT ministers working for Taksim, not to mention Denktash himself. In fact every single TC with some education (teachers like your father, doctors like Eroglu, lawyers like Denktash, University students like those who landed at Ernekoys-Kokkina) all became TMT officers working for the cause of taksim.

I am not really trying to blame anyone, just to point out that the cause for Taksim, seemed to have developed in a much more stable fashion than the cause of Enosis.

I knew Dr. B Nalbantoglu when he had a small clinic in London Street/Nicosia. We were always flirting with his nurses. He often chastised us (I was 15/16 at the time).

I encountered him on that fateful day 22nd December 1963; We had taken my friend Ahmet (now also a doctor, from Pergama) after he was shot by the GC police when they drove past the Turkish Boys Lycee. He was shot in the mouth and Nalbantoglu and his team tended to his injuries. Then he left in a hurry and convened a meeting with 'others' in the next room. Now I think that they were the TMT leadership. Denktash was not around.
After that, I saw Nalbantoglu always with his Uzi-like automatic pistol, strutting the streets.

I know you asked Bir, but I like jumping in sometimes.

[YFred]

I think it is a mistake to think of these "historical" figures in black and white terms...As they say,'one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter'...I want to correct some misconceptions about the TMT...Firstly,the TMT was not founded to advance the cause of Taksim...

Please explain why TMT was founded then...

Yes,they did embrace that later on but it was found to protect the TC community from what they thought was the inevitable widespread attacks from EOKA or other GC paramilitaries...Secondly,the TMT's sway over the average TC is largely exaggerated...Most TCs hero-worshipped the TMT and its commanders,very much like how most GCs hero-worship the EOKA today... And yes, the TMT did turn on those TCs it considered as traitors to the cause,and they did murder those they could not bring to their knees...


Can you provide specific numbers of murdered TCs or approx? What are we talking about? It it tens or hundreds?




The average TC would have considered these murders as "necessary evils",and keep on supporting the TMT for it was their only protection (so the believed) against "greater" evil...I don't believe there is anybody alive today who can prove that Denktas did anything "wrong" personally,as founder of the TMT...Let's not forget that the operational command of the TMT was handed over to Turkish Army officers pretty much from the beginning...

It may be true... no one is alive to prove Denktas wrongdoing, but surely Denktas knew of the "dark" side of the TMT (intimidating/killing TCs) and yet, never decided to pull out of TMT, therefor, we are to assume Denktas (knowingly) was approving of the atrocities. Well, he is guilty after all, don't you think?



The other thing to remember is this: Not everyone who joined the TMT were of good and noble character motivated to serve his community...Some were plain and simple thugs who were in it for personal gain,and who were used by those higher up to do the "dirty" work for them...

Also known as "buffers" sort of speak...

Those who suffered most from TMT's excessess (after those murdered by the TMT that is) were the good souls who joined the TMT to help protect their community,but couldn't stomach certain TMT practices...Most of them went into voluntary exile in countries like England and Australia,faithfully keeping their oaths of silence,and lived very unhappy and unfulfilled lives,and died very bitter persons...

Why keep their silence? Most exiled people make it loud & clear, to their host countries, of the atrocities they left behind... Could the TMT get to them, even as far as Australia?

Who is afraid of TMT today? Which planet are you from? Uranus?

YFred, bugger off!!!

I am waiting for Bir to comment not you. Bir's answers make sense, you just make noise.

Don't dismiss YFred so lightly,Georgio...His answers make sense too,but you have to dig deep to understand him...

Nothing is black and white,as dear Pyro explained in his penetrating post above..It was inevitable to have the notion of Taksim as soon as you had the ENOSIS notion...Similarly with the TMT and EOKA...One gave birth to the other...I differ from Pyro in that,I believe it was the fear of the EOKA and what they might do to the TCs, IF they managed to kick the British out which motivated its founding...Enosis and the EOKA were the catalysts...The TCs never bought the argument that EOKA was a freedom movement...for them it was an enslaving movement,wanting to make them slaves of Greece...But again,nothing is balck and white,many shades in between...While the Turkish govenment in the 50s (Menderes) showed little interest in Cyprus,the "Deep State",represented by the Special War Office (Ozel Harp Daires) was very interested indeed...Some argue that they used Cyprus and the TMT as a laboratory to develop their covert,underground operations they used so successfully for so long against successive Turkish governments,to protect the interests of the Military/bureacratic/industrialist ruling Kemalist elite...(which are now in a deadly struggle with Erdogan for their survival...see,Ergenekon).

One could say that during the 50s it was the Deep State, and their natural baby with the British and the Americans,the TMT, which embraced the TAksim cause and dragged the Turkish government into line...With the Military coup in 1960 Cyprus offically became "national cause' for Turkey and remained so till the ascent of Erdogan and his AKP...

Denktas being a Turanist (pan-Turkist) was more than willing to be the spiritual leader of the TMT,and yes,you are right,he cannot absolve himself from the crimes and excessess of the TMT...He did his best to hide behind his hatchet man,Dr Burhan Nalbantoglu,but he must've known and approved the more serious TMT actions in advance...Nalbantoglu was probably the only Turkish Cypriot who had enough evidence to convict Denktas in a court of law...He is long dead,of course...

But,I repeat,the TMT never had the kind of hold and sway over the TC community as the GCs like to believe..Personally,I was more scared of my grandmother than the TMT man in the village...
The average TC liked to know there was TMT ready to protect him against the EOKA (which was considered as bloodthirsty terrorists) but didn't like to take orders from them regarding their day to day lives...And certainly it wasn't the fear of TMT which made tens of thousands of TCs leave their villages and towns to seek shelter in enclaves...It was the fear of the EOKA and the GC paramilitaries...

People kept their vows of silence not because they feared the TMT once they were out of Cyprus (I know of no incident where the TMT tried to intimidate or silence someone overseas),but out of a sense of duty and royalty to their community...They thought it was their patriotic duty to honour their oath,I believe...

1)Bir could you please give us more information about this person?

Is he perhaps the equivalent of Tassos Papadopoulos? You know it is said that Tpap was the person responsible for gathering information and making the list of "traitors" that would be executed.The list always contained a lot of GC leftists.

2)Are you referring to post 1960 period? I think it's important to distinguish between those 2 periods. Before 1960 there was Eoka with dual "causes" (liberation from Brits+Enosis) and TMT on a wait and see status that also ended up to both dual "causes ( defense +preparation for Taksim)
After 1960 there was no Eoka, there were remnants of it organized in a)paramilitary groups b)part of the police c)selective units of National Guard under Grivas.They did not have widespread support from GCs considering they were all"anti-Makarios" at times when Makarios had more than 95% public support.
On the other hand TMT remained quite united after 1960 to the point that we even had TMT ministers working for Taksim, not to mention Denktash himself. In fact every single TC with some education (teachers like your father, doctors like Eroglu, lawyers like Denktash, University students like those who landed at Ernekoys-Kokkina) all became TMT officers working for the cause of taksim.

I am not really trying to blame anyone, just to point out that the cause for Taksim, seemed to have developed in a much more stable fashion than the cause of Enosis.

I knew Dr. B Nalbantoglu when he had a small clinic in London Street/Nicosia. We were always flirting with his nurses. He often chastised us (I was 15/16 at the time).

I encountered him on that fateful day 22nd December 1963; We had taken my friend Ahmet (now also a doctor, from Pergama) after he was shot by the GC police when they drove past the Turkish Boys Lycee. He was shot in the mouth and Nalbantoglu and his team tended to his injuries. Then he left in a hurry and convened a meeting with 'others' in the next room. Now I think that they were the TMT leadership. Denktash was not around.
After that, I saw Nalbantoglu always with his Uzi-like automatic pistol, strutting the streets.

I know you asked Bir, but I like jumping in sometimes.

But Deniz, you've got to change reality because it does not fit in with the crap that our GC cousins down south have been fed. You see TMT started it all. That incident that happened did not happen at all, it was just in your mind. Ask Pyro, he knows everything. We don't really exist; we are figment of our imagination. When will you get it Deniz? Ask Pyro he knows because he grows. What? I am not so sure, but not brains that's for sure.
I wonder if our GC cousins could comprehend that it was a police man who shot an innocent man and got away with it.

I feel like breaking into a song. I think this one is ideal. Listen to the words when he talks about Texasli chavush.

[Pyrpolizer]

I knew Dr. B Nalbantoglu when he had a small clinic in London Street/Nicosia. We were always flirting with his nurses. He often chastised us (I was 15/16 at the time).

I encountered him on that fateful day 22nd December 1963; We had taken my friend Ahmet (now also a doctor, from Pergama) after he was shot by the GC police when they drove past the Turkish Boys Lycee. He was shot in the mouth and Nalbantoglu and his team tended to his injuries. Then he left in a hurry and convened a meeting with 'others' in the next room. Now I think that they were the TMT leadership. Denktash was not around.
After that, I saw Nalbantoglu always with his Uzi-like automatic pistol, strutting the streets.

I know you asked Bir, but I like jumping in sometimes.

No problem Deniz, in fact your information was valueable. What do you think of Denktashe's absence from that meeting? Was it just accidental?