Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

:? I'm still trying to figure out how Deniz is actually debating the fact that there were partition plans drawn up by Denktash before the Republic was even setup.

I think he is describing how the partition plan was activated. As he said, they were given guns and bullets when very little had actually happened. We already know Bir's father, a mere teacher, was also armed like a latter-day insurgent terrorist.

No Oracle, what I was saying that everything took us by surprise. After the initial events (the first two weeks) there was a ceasefire. In spite of this so called ceasefire, there were still killings going on. From my vantage point, it was the TCs which were being killed and flown into Nicosia - into what was then the Girls Lycee in front of the old Kyrenia gate.
At that time the defenders in the trenches had no more than TWO bullets each in their stenguns. That was the indication that we were short of ammo. The fear was that had the GCs the courage to attack from the direction of the prison, Nicosia could have been lost. We hoped they wouldnt attack, and for whatever reason they did not. Instead they picked off poor shepherds isolated in their fields while tending to their flocks. At this time I have no idea as to GC losses. We were more interested in our own survival. As I person who was old enough to remember those dark days, I am trying to give the forum a feeling of those days. I am fed up of people constantly telling us what happened at a time they were not even a sparkle in their fathers eye.

You also have the bad experiences you have mentioned too. I feel for you. But none of this bloodshed should have hapenned.

In spite of all this, I can still forgive.............

this is what I meant deniz, you know more than what meets the eye...thanks...

spit it out man, don't hold back, say it as you saw it...

Ok. I see. You are on a 'wind up' mission. What would an 18 yr old high school student know of the behind the scenes/covert planning.?

If there was something amiss that I knew of then, I would not hesitate to tell. I did not belong to any secret organisation, so not sworn to secrecy.

Have a good day mate!! or is it near midnight?

no wind up mate...

it saddens me...we all have been affected....i remember in limassol, at primary school, running from class to dug outs everytime the siren went off...i think i was in grade 1 or 2...so long ago...soon after we left for oz...

not midnight yet, but shortly going out to pick up number 2 daughter from the footy...

Flippin time zones. No wonder my wife gets a load of abuse from her mum and dad when we wake them up. She always forgets if they are 11 hrs ahead or behind.

I am sorry for the trauma you suffered as a kid.

We were always told that Limasol was always considered a hornets nest of Eoka men. What do you think? And yet there is a TC population still residing in Limasol.

thanks deniz...

i am not sure about an eoka hornets nest...we lived on the outskirts of the turkish domain and played together...actually not far from iceman...

yeah the time difference can play havoc...i call NY, and with the finish of daylight saving, man i need to get up at the crack of dawn to talk to them...

I miss Iceman. He is a straight forward guy.We owe him a meal.

[YFred]

:? I'm still trying to figure out how Deniz is actually debating the fact that there were partition plans drawn up by Denktash before the Republic was even setup.

I think he is describing how the partition plan was activated. As he said, they were given guns and bullets when very little had actually happened. We already know Bir's father, a mere teacher, was also armed like a latter-day insurgent terrorist.

No Oracle, what I was saying that everything took us by surprise. After the initial events (the first two weeks) there was a ceasefire. In spite of this so called ceasefire, there were still killings going on. From my vantage point, it was the TCs which were being killed and flown into Nicosia - into what was then the Girls Lycee in front of the old Kyrenia gate.
At that time the defenders in the trenches had no more than TWO bullets each in their stenguns. That was the indication that we were short of ammo. The fear was that had the GCs the courage to attack from the direction of the prison, Nicosia could have been lost. We hoped they wouldnt attack, and for whatever reason they did not. Instead they picked off poor shepherds isolated in their fields while tending to their flocks. At this time I have no idea as to GC losses. We were more interested in our own survival. As I person who was old enough to remember those dark days, I am trying to give the forum a feeling of those days. I am fed up of people constantly telling us what happened at a time they were not even a sparkle in their fathers eye.

You also have the bad experiences you have mentioned too. I feel for you. But none of this bloodshed should have hapenned.

In spite of all this, I can still forgive.............

this is what I meant deniz, you know more than what meets the eye...thanks...

spit it out man, don't hold back, say it as you saw it...

Ok. I see. You are on a 'wind up' mission. What would an 18 yr old high school student know of the behind the scenes/covert planning.?

If there was something amiss that I knew of then, I would not hesitate to tell. I did not belong to any secret organisation, so not sworn to secrecy.

Have a good day mate!! or is it near midnight?

no wind up mate...

it saddens me...we all have been affected....i remember in limassol, at primary school, running from class to dug outs everytime the siren went off...i think i was in grade 1 or 2...so long ago...soon after we left for oz...

not midnight yet, but shortly going out to pick up number 2 daughter from the footy...

Flippin time zones. No wonder my wife gets a load of abuse from her mum and dad when we wake them up. She always forgets if they are 11 hrs ahead or behind.

I am sorry for the trauma you suffered as a kid.

We were always told that Limasol was always considered a hornets nest of Eoka men. What do you think? And yet there is a TC population still residing in Limasol.

thanks deniz...

i am not sure about an eoka hornets nest...we lived on the outskirts of the turkish domain and played together...actually not far from iceman...

yeah the time difference can play havoc...i call NY, and with the finish of daylight saving, man i need to get up at the crack of dawn to talk to them...

I miss Iceman. He is a straight forward guy.We owe him a meal.

How many Limasol TC were killed between 1963 and 1967?

[Paphitis]

deniz i get the feeling that you know more truths than meets the eye but you chose to sit on the sidelines...your right of course...

What sidelines Boomers? I have told my story a few times. It was not pleasant. But I must admit that we know a lot more now than we knew then. Not pleasant at all. All we knew was that 'the Greeks wanted us out'. The 'proof' was there when we heard of the massacres of Ay. Vasilios and Ay. Sozomenos and the flying hearse/helicopters bringing in the dead from outlying/isolated villages on a daily basis. I have no secrets if that is what you are implying....and yes, I did spend a lot of time in the trenches behind the Ledra Palace and facing the Central prison (purely defensive under the watchful eyes of the Teshkilat).

Thanks Deniz! I'm sure it wasn't pleasant.

But what role did the TMT play in your opinion?

In what exactly?

I know only of their killing of a number of our Armenian neighbours in Köşklü Çiftlik. Until then the TMT was unknown to me. I was 18 yr old and in my final year at the Lycee.
Until then, as far as I was concerned the Teskilat was a secret organisation which tried to disrupt the co-existence of GC and TC together, which culminated in the killings of two eminent TC's (Muzaffer Gurkan and Ayhan Hikmet) This was ofcourse a secret everyone suspected. Of course after the events of the 21st Dec, there was weapons training for the defenders of the area. we thanked them for the two wrong caliber bullets they gace us for the sten guns. We prayed the Greeks would not attack us. Scared? You may well ask.

Let's cut to the chase Deniz! I didn't ask you whether you were personally aware of any TMT agenda for Partition from the late 50s and immediately after the creation of the RoC in 1960. Even Bananiot admits this!

I want to know if you now acknowledge the role of TMT and its objective of Partition. I ask if you acknowledge the TMT's role in segregating TC from GC, and at destabilizing the island to create the conditions for possible GC retaliation so that they can show that GCs and TCs can't live together and that Turkey's "Intervention" is necessary to ensure their safety.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis

I mean, I can understand Halil and BIR ignoring vital bits of information to gain advantages at the expense of other Cypriots, but why Bananiot also chooses to do the same is incomprehensible. Perhaps he is on someone's payroll.

I'll be damned if ever again I respond to the ludicrous comments of this arrogant imbecile from down under.

Don't be stupid Bananiot.

One simple comment made in jest and now you behave like a drama queen. How many times have you called me and others nationalists, bash patriots, racists etc?

Perhaps you don't want to reply because I have struck a nerve about your much loved Clerides. You have stated that he was our "best" politician, whilst you scorn Makarios, Tassos Papadopoulos, and many more.

Why is he the best Bananiot? And if he is the best, then why was he best pals with people such as Sampson and Yorgadjis whom you despise?

How can someone be so hypocritical?

So, it is just a matter of mathematics now, according to one of our most fanatical forumer. If 1000 TC's were killed by the GC's, 250 GC's killed by the TC's and it is a fair game. Equilibrium!

The Arabs are 100 million and the Israelis 5 million and if 1million Arabs are killed by the Israelis, the Arabs would maintain equilibrium by killing 5 million Israelis and here you have it. The Middle East issue over and done.

Our issue here, however, is Yiorgadjis. This scheming obscure character who switched allegiance with the greatest of ease and was involved in a number of murders or attempted murders. This person would have no moral obstacles to annihilate all Turkish Cypriots. Why didn't he, the fanatical and the skeptic ask. Because Turkey, a mere 40 miles away as we sadly found out in 1974, had warned him that "we are watching every single move of yours". Believe it or not, there is a lot of background politics involved in politics and in similar fashion Israel warned Sadam in 1991 that a chemical attack on Israel would result in the disappearance of Baghdad from the face of the earth.

Bananiot, we have discussed Yorgadjis, and we all agree this individual has a very interesting history. He is a mysterious character, probably because most Cypriots don't really like talking about the subject. His history, I think you would agree, has all the twists of Shakespeare's Macbeth.

We covered his early history as a member of EOKA, then his time on Makarios' cabinet, how he conspired against the Junta in Greece, was sacked by Makarios in 1968, and then discussed how he made 3 attempts at removing Makarios in 1970, until he was assassinated at Mia Milia by Cypriot Junta sympathisers as revenge for his involvement on the assassination attempt on Colonel Papadopoulos.

We also talked about how he and Clerides, who happens to be your favoured politician in Cyprus, formed the Ethniko Metobo, which later osmosed into today's DISY. You told us that Ethniko Metobo, which later became DISY, was the Party where most EOKA supporters gravitated towards and not only. Most EOKA B (formed in 1971) also became stalwarts of DISY, included the very 'dreaded' Koutsou, who later formed New Horizon or the European Party if I'm not mistaken.

Now, the reason why I opened this thread was to bring the recent history of Cyprus to the light of day as well. We have all had our say. Certain TCs have been spreading myths about how Yorgadjis was most feared as he would have no problem forcing his way into TC and TMT enclaves to embark on a crazed TC killing spree! BIR has even gone as far to suggest that Yorgadjis did in fact do this, controlled EOKA remnant militias, which you and I know did not exist in 1963, to ruthlessly kill any TC he came across. I agree that you have provided a reasonably accurate Biography on Yorgadjis, but you and I know, that Yorgadjis never went on any alleged killing sprees.

Now, the RoC did attack Mansoura and Kokkina, and no doubt many innocents were killed. But did Makarios and Yorgadjis wake up one day and decide to attack Mansoura and Kokkina for the hell of it and to kill as many TCs as possible due to their alleged hatred towards TCs. NO! They didn't Bananiot. Quite the opposite. Makarios, endured many weeks of TMT attacks and provocations before Kokkina and Mansoura were attacked

We know that on the 21 Dec 63, Cypriot Plain Clothed Police, were involved in an incident in Nicosia with an angry and violent TC mob. Shots were fired, and 2 TCs were killed. TMT began firing and started to take hostages. They captured St. Hilarion, thus occupying the high ground and controlling the road to Kyrenia. As BillC stated previously, this was phase 1 of Turkey's invasion.

The atmosphere on the island was tense. On December 21, 1963, serious violence erupted in Nicosia when a Greek Cypriot police patrol, ostensibly checking identification documents, stopped a Turkish Cypriot couple on the edge of the Turkish quarter. A hostile crowd gathered, shots were fired, and two Turkish Cypriots were killed. As the news spread, members of the underground organizations began firing and taking hostages. North of Nicosia, Turkish forces occupied a strong position at St. Hilarion Castle, dominating the road to Kyrenia on the northern coast. The road became a principal combat area as both sides fought to control it. Much intercommunal fighting occurred in Nicosia along the line separating the Greek and Turkish quarters of the city (known later as the Green Line). Turkish Cypriots were not concentrated in one area, but lived throughout the island, making their position precarious. Vice-President Küçük and Turkish Cypriot ministers and members of the House of Representatives ceased participating in the government.

http://countrystudies.us/cyprus/13.htm

Kokkina was attacked in 1964 because it was a secure bridgehead and because the TMT were smuggling arms. The RoC tried to attack TMT positions at St Hilarion castle on more than one occasion. Kophinou was attacked because TMT separatists were attacking RoC patrols along the Nicosia to Limassol Highway in 1967. We even now, that UN convoys were escorting GCs along the Kyrenia Highway because the TMT would fire on GC civilians. Traveling alone was considered unsafe.

So again Bananiot, I ask you this. Did Yorgadjis, or Makarios suddenly wake up and decide to slaughter TCs? Or were they trying to defend the RoC from TMT separatists?

Now this thread was never started to lay blame on anyone. It was started to establish the true history and so far you have provided some factual information. Naturally, both sides are to blame. But you seem to ignore the fact that EOKA was disbanded in 1959, whilst TMT continued to destabilize the entire island, until its objective of Partition became reality.

[denizaksulu]

deniz i get the feeling that you know more truths than meets the eye but you chose to sit on the sidelines...your right of course...

What sidelines Boomers? I have told my story a few times. It was not pleasant. But I must admit that we know a lot more now than we knew then. Not pleasant at all. All we knew was that 'the Greeks wanted us out'. The 'proof' was there when we heard of the massacres of Ay. Vasilios and Ay. Sozomenos and the flying hearse/helicopters bringing in the dead from outlying/isolated villages on a daily basis. I have no secrets if that is what you are implying....and yes, I did spend a lot of time in the trenches behind the Ledra Palace and facing the Central prison (purely defensive under the watchful eyes of the Teshkilat).

Thanks Deniz! I'm sure it wasn't pleasant.

But what role did the TMT play in your opinion?

In what exactly?

I know only of their killing of a number of our Armenian neighbours in Köşklü Çiftlik. Until then the TMT was unknown to me. I was 18 yr old and in my final year at the Lycee.
Until then, as far as I was concerned the Teskilat was a secret organisation which tried to disrupt the co-existence of GC and TC together, which culminated in the killings of two eminent TC's (Muzaffer Gurkan and Ayhan Hikmet) This was ofcourse a secret everyone suspected. Of course after the events of the 21st Dec, there was weapons training for the defenders of the area. we thanked them for the two wrong caliber bullets they gace us for the sten guns. We prayed the Greeks would not attack us. Scared? You may well ask.

Let's cut to the chase Deniz! I didn't ask you whether you were personally aware of any TMT agenda for Partition from the late 50s and immediately after the creation of the RoC in 1960. Even Bananiot admits this!

I want to know if you now acknowledge the role of TMT and its objective of Partition. I ask if you acknowledge the TMT's role in segregating TC from GC, and at destabilizing the island to create the conditions for possible GC retaliation so that they can show that GCs and TCs can't live together and that Turkey's "Intervention" is necessary to ensure their safety.

I always knew their objectives were to prevent interaction between the two communities. Despite torching our house twice this was unsuccessful in our village.

About this stament, ' destabilizing the island to create the conditions for possible GC retaliation so that they can show that GCs and TCs can't live together and that Turkey's "Intervention" is necessary to ensure their safety.[/quote], I am not hundred percent sure, but I would not be surprised. Similar to 'Akritas', wouldnt you say?

Ofcourse if you can produce 'proof' that these documents (in the misisters safe) were authenticated, then I will be 100% sure. A lot of accusations have been banded about and oft it is impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff.

[Oracle]

21st December 1963.

What was the date you allege that the TC ministers walked out of the Gov?

The TC ministers started to disrupt parliament from November 1963. The unrests in December 1963 were a direct consequence of this initiation for partition. Next in the sequence were the Kokkina arms smuggling and then Turkey's direct invasion attempt in July-August 1964

[denizaksulu]

21st December 1963.

What was the date you allege that the TC ministers walked out of the Gov?

The TC ministers started to disrupt parliament from November 1963. The unrests in December 1963 were a direct consequence of this initiation for partition. Next in the sequence were the Kokkina arms smuggling and then Turkey's direct invasion attempt in July-August 1964

I will stick my neck out and say that the initiation for partition began before that. The 'disruption' you talk about is bound to happen in any parliament.

They did not even come to blow like they do in Greece and or Turkey - and even guns in Sud-Amerika.

The TC leadership must have had a good sense to prepare for Akritas. With Enosis on your mind then, partition was the only defence the TCs had.

I remember the slogans during marches pre-1963 and the slogans of' Ya Taksim Ya ÖlÜM'. Someone must have had this in mind and planted the idea into the 'Cyprus Donkeys head'. But what the TCs then wanted was a peaceful partition rather than by force.IMHO.

[Viewpoint]

enosis was the reason for Taksim....no enosis and there would not have been Taksim.

[Oracle]

21st December 1963.

What was the date you allege that the TC ministers walked out of the Gov?

The TC ministers started to disrupt parliament from November 1963. The unrests in December 1963 were a direct consequence of this initiation for partition. Next in the sequence were the Kokkina arms smuggling and then Turkey's direct invasion attempt in July-August 1964

I will stick my neck out and say that the initiation for partition began before that. The 'disruption' you talk about is bound to happen in any parliament.

They did not even come to blow like they do in Greece and or Turkey - and even guns in Sud-Amerika.

The TC leadership must have had a good sense to prepare for Akritas. With Enosis on your mind then, partition was the only defence the TCs had.

I remember the slogans during marches pre-1963 and the slogans of' Ya Taksim Ya ÖlÜM'. Someone must have had this in mind and planted the idea into the 'Cyprus Donkeys head'. But what the TCs then wanted was a peaceful partition rather than by force.IMHO.

Thanks for sticking your (lovely) neck out with regards to the TC ministers' disruptions. I went for as conservative an estimate as I could google.

But Deniz, you know full well there was no effort towards Enosis after 1960. So the earlier Turkish partition plans (Denktash-Kucuk) were the only obstacle to unity. Besides, no one could have known about "Akritas" (whether it was real or not) since it did not materialise until much later (1967?).

[YFred]

21st December 1963.

What was the date you allege that the TC ministers walked out of the Gov?

The TC ministers started to disrupt parliament from November 1963. The unrests in December 1963 were a direct consequence of this initiation for partition. Next in the sequence were the Kokkina arms smuggling and then Turkey's direct invasion attempt in July-August 1964

I will stick my neck out and say that the initiation for partition began before that. The 'disruption' you talk about is bound to happen in any parliament.

They did not even come to blow like they do in Greece and or Turkey - and even guns in Sud-Amerika.

The TC leadership must have had a good sense to prepare for Akritas. With Enosis on your mind then, partition was the only defence the TCs had.

I remember the slogans during marches pre-1963 and the slogans of' Ya Taksim Ya ÖlÜM'. Someone must have had this in mind and planted the idea into the 'Cyprus Donkeys head'. But what the TCs then wanted was a peaceful partition rather than by force.IMHO.

Thanks for sticking your (lovely) neck out with regards to the TC ministers' disruptions. I went for as conservative an estimate as I could google.

But Deniz, you know full well there was no effort towards Enosis after 1960. So the earlier Turkish partition plans (Denktash-Kucuk) were the only obstacle to unity. Besides, no one could have known about "Akritas" (whether it was real or not) since it did not materialise until much later (1967?).

Oh princess of darkness, please tell us what the akritas plan meeting in 1960 was about. The highest IQ may belong to a french greecian, but the lowest belongs to a cypriot greecian.