Cyprus-Forum.com

[Yiannis]

From the beggining i joined this forum i was specifically most interested in the Cyprus Problem section hoping that i will find out a way to really understand the whole problem better and also hear the stories of GCs and TCs and their opinions of what really happened and find a way to walk towards a solution.

However after reading for a couple of months every single discussion in the Cyprus Problem section i finally understood why Cyprus Problem is still unsolved after all these years. Well the reason is simply because we are all Cypriots and Cypriots are one of the most stubborn people in the world (and there is no known cure ).

Many people in this forum have gone through those hard years in the modern history of Cyprus and they know the events from first hand.However me and many other members were not even born at that time. Most conversions end up with TCs and GCs defending their positions without even making a step backwards for compromise. So how do u guys expect us young members understanding history if even you that went thorugh those years cannot agree with eachother. Im even thinking and i know that is really mean but its true, that the only way Cy problem can be resolved in a matter of seconds is to extinguish all people in Cyprus over 30 years old

As Kifeas stated in one of his posts the feeling i get from fellow TCs is that i should be blamed for what happened those years eventhough i wasnt even born at that time. Either way i stated that im not afraid of the truth and i can even go far and say yes im guilty for anything that happened to any TC just for the sake of going forward and try to unite Cyprus.

However i dont think that leaving history behind unresolved can do any good, so im asking from the old members of the forum and those that are reliable enough to compromise where they should i.e MicAtCyp,Erolz,Gabaston etc. and write history the way that can all agree to and have it as a sticky topic. In this way we can find a common ground in what really happened and avoid getting into the cirlcle of accusations for the past while we try to built up trust and find a common ground in resolving Cyprus Problem.Added to this any new members joining and disagreeing with the history that both TC and GC members agree to will be convinced by both TCs and GCs joining together to persuade him on what really happened.

Im pretty sure that this common ground in writing history the way all GCs and TCs will agree is almost impossible but i thought that i should give it a try. However i decided to stop trying to take part in conversions concerning history cause i know that i will be accused for being a product of 'propaganda' so from now on i will only observe and participate in conversations concerning only current steps in Cy Problem.

As a first step in rewriting history i propose EOKA A and and their role against TCs and TCs and their role as policemen used by the English colonists.

And now may the arguments begin ...

Peace,

--Yiannis

[erolz]

As Kifeas stated in one of his posts the feeling i get from fellow TCs is that i should be blamed for what happened those years eventhough i wasnt even born at that time. Either way i stated that im not afraid of the truth and i can even go far and say yes im guilty for anything that happened to any TC just for the sake of going forward and try to unite Cyprus.

Well firstly is this something only TC do? Do GC here not blame TC for the actions of Turkey or even for what the ottomans did in Cyprus?

As indivduals we are reponsible for our indivdual actions. As communites we are responsible for our communites actions. These are two different things. No one says that you personaly should be blamed for the actions of other indivduals. What we are saying is that GC should accept repsonsibility for the actions of their community as we should for ours, because they are members of that community. As communites we have communal responsibility. It is the denial of ones communites actions that is the problem here, not the denial of ones personal acts. Thus at the communal level I accept the reponsibility of the acts of the TC community even though I personaly was not involved in any of those acts and I expect the same from others.

[Piratis]

As a first step in rewriting history i propose EOKA A

EOKA A didn't come out of the blue. History didn't start in 1955. History is a chain of events.

History: "Chronology of people and events since humans have kept written records."

So we have to start much earlier. The latest we can start is 1571 when the Ottomans invaded Cyprus.

[Piratis]

As indivduals we are reponsible for our indivdual actions. As communites we are responsible for our communites actions.

For Erolz, their responsibility starts when the centuries of Ottoman oppression ended. As usually is the case, they pick a point in history were it suits them and everything before that is irrelevant and they hold no responsibility. Then history ends just some years later, and beyond that they have no responsibility again because their actions are excused.

The conclusion: GCs are to blame, and they have to be punished indefinitely because of what they did in one decade. As far as the TCs go .. well, they are responsible for almost nothing.

[Yiannis]

Well firstly is this something only TC do? Do GC here not blame TC for the actions of Turkey or even for what the ottomans did in Cyprus?

Im sorry if i didnt make myself clear but i wasnt just accusing TCs but both sides. I just stated what i feel from the attitude of some TC without declining the possibility of TCs also feeling in a similar way from the attitude of some GCs.

[erolz]

Im sorry if i didnt make myself clear but i wasnt just accusing TCs but both sides. I just stated what i feel from the attitude of some TC without declining the possibility of TCs also feeling in a similar way from the attitude of some GCs.

No problem. You have to distinguish as far as I am concerned between indivdual reponsibility you have for your personal actions and communal responsibility for the actions of your community. If you take a request for accepting responsibility as a GC for the actions of he GC community as being request for you to take personal responsibilty for the acts of you community - then you are going to feel that such is unfair. I do not think anyone is asking or expecting you to take personal responsibility for the acts of your community - only that you accept the communal reponsibility of the acts of your community. Does that make things any clearer?

PS to get back to more on core topic the idea of a common agreed history as a starting point for reconcillation was an idea pushed by Insan many times in the past and one I agree with. The idea is sound but the implemenation remains elusive.

[MicAtCyp]

Yianni,

Despite of what you said there is no one in this forum who was old enough in the 60s to tell us what happened back then. Even if you try to talk with old people who today are 60+ years old, they don't know much more than what they personally witnessed.

The best I can personally expect some day is the events that occured be registered in chronological order. To write history you need answers to questions that only some key persons know and are not willing to tell. Did you ever wonder why your history books at high school were full of dates and no real reasoning for the events?
Let me give you some examples:

Event No1: Opening the gates in 2003
We don't know anything of what the REAL intentions behind that action were. The only ones who know are those in Ankara who ordered it. Yet they will never tell. Can we exclude the possibility the intentions were to cause a bloodshed that did not work as expected? No!

Event No 2: The turning of Anan Plan very unfavourably against the GCs.
One historian may say it was because Papadopoulos did not negotiate it and actually worked to get it bad. However the only one who knows the truth for that is Papadopoulos himself. Assuming it's true will he ever tell? No!

Event No 3. Back in the 60s the TCs took control of all hills around Kofinou and were shooting at every car that was passing by the highway indiscremenently.
Grivas attacked Kofinou and slaughtered even innocent people.
Question: Why the TCs were doing that knowing they would be attacked? Who ordered them? What were his intentions. Why Grivas did not attack only the fighters on the hills? etc etc. To all these questions it is almost impossible to have a verified true answer. Those who have the answers will never tell.

So a good historian will just register the events and write down all possible explanations for those events. Assuming ALL possible explanations are IN (usually only a handful are) who will decide which explanation is the real truth? Nobody!

This is what history is my friend. Thousands of humans with different brains some following instructions, some acting at will, some responding to events and so on and so on. That's why we talk and talk in this forum and we never agree. It's because we only know events and some of the reasons. Not to mention that many forum members don't even know the events and don't have a clue of any of the possible reasons. . . .

Here look at our friends asking for responsibiliies
their responsibility starts. . . . . . . . take personal responsibilty for the acts of you . . . . . . .
Ts, Ts, Ts. . . .

[erolz]

We don't know anything of what the REAL intentions behind that action were. The only ones who know are those in Ankara who ordered it. Yet they will never tell. Can we exclude the possibility the intentions were to cause a bloodshed that did not work as expected? No!

Not a great start How can you know it was orderd by Turkey? Is it beyond the realms of possibility that it was TC who persued the idea and convinced Turkey of it's merits?

[cypezokyli]

i ll return to the rewriting of history.....

imo having one book does not solve the problem.
firstly there are somethings we have to understand and accept about the lesson called history.
historic truth or objective history does not exxist. i am really sorry to disapoint those who set to find it, but it is simply not there. objectivity does not exists even es a concept.
u might say, history is just facts.
well it is not
let aside that when it is only facts it is boring (and you start drawing mustages on faces...)
history is instead interpratation of the facts
....
even though i am not font of the english foreign policy in cyprus, i have to say that taking an english exam on history was indeed an experience.the way it is taught is far different from what we consider as a history class.

in the very first day the teacher said:
"here we are not studying history, we are studying historian"
in that one sentence is the whole concept of history, and why i believe that having ONE book is not going to help. even if we would have a gc and tc agreeing on writing a book describing cyprus history it wouldnt be an objective history but simply the opinion of those two guys. nothing more and nothing else. the idea is not to change the book and to have students believing that THIS book is the truth. the idea is to let students create their own thoughts and to pocess the ability to back their ideas with arguements.

also a classic question that appeared in those exams (after presenting a number of different sources - erticles, interviews...) was: would u consider source No 5 reliable?
and here is where the difference lies. by asking, do u consider this source reliable, it forces the student to think who wrote that, when, what is his backround, what r his objectives etc? in that way the student inevitably (hopefully) earns a further social skill i.e. stop developing blindly in a newspaper or a politician but contemplating and critising what he just read.

sth else that i found important was the formulation of questions.
for example in our schools a question considering (lets take a random topic) the russian revolution was:
Determine the reasons that lead to, and the consequences of the russian revolution.
instead, in the english exam it was:
was there a revolution in russia in 1918?
how communist was russia after the revolution?
again the difference is huge. the first one sais, the reasons and the consequences lie in the book. learn them, memorise them and u can pass the exam.
the second sais. there is no right answer, we r interested in your opoinion. if u can back it up with the necessary arguments ..

imo the history books may as well stay as they are today. the challange is to get students reading both. (ok we could delete some promoting-hate passages) if the student is asked to compare and not say what is right or wrong, if he is asked on their reliability then perhaps we ve got him on the right track.

if any one is interested : marc ferro "the use and the abuse of history" or how history is taught to children all around the world
any book suggestions on the topic i would be glad to listen

[cypezokyli]

from that book one can also understand how history books are the way they are.

"by controlling the past one can easily rule on the present, legalise authorities and reduce questioning. the ruling powers therefore - states ,churches, political parties or private interests- have controlled and sponsored the media and mechanisms of reprocuction of ideas, school books, cartoons, movies .. p.11

so no surprise if one looks at the primary objective of the history class for the gc junior school as it is stated in the analytic program of junior school education of the ministry of culture and education p.133
"the targer of the lesson of history is to help the students to meet and appreciate the history and cultural heritage of cyprus and greece and to create a national conscience as members of the greek nation and as residents of a half-occupied cyprus.
in 119. the first three objectives of the social sciences are:
1)love for the country, respect of our national identity and strangthening of our state
2)strenghtening of our fighting spirit for the freedom of our occupied lands
3)appreciating the cultural achievements, religious and national traditions of our people as well of others

not surprisingly, change the greek with turk and u get the targets of tc education
http://www.ktos.org/shownews.php?id=11#

With accordance to “National Education law”, education is compulsory for all children between the ages of 5 to 15 years and free up to years of age 18 in North Cyprus.
General aims of Turkish cypriot national education are follows:
a) To have at heart the reforms of Atatürk and be a dedicated nationalist.
b) To adopt, uphold, Project and improve nationalism, morals, human spiritual and cultural values of the Turkish Nation.
c) To love and be devoted and always endeavour for the betterment of its family, Motherland and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.
d) To be well aware and respect the duties and responsibilities of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.
e) To have respect and belief for the Universal Declaration of Human rights.