Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

see cyprus does eu a favour by having this problem and not letting turkey in the eu.. i think it would be a huge mistake to allow turkey in

Cyprus is shooting herself in the foot,by buttering Erdogan's bread...
How many times do I have to tell you? Erdogan and his goverment do not want to join the EU. They cannot say so openly at this stage, but they are using Cyprus and the other European short-sighted bigots to make sure they are never accepted into what they believe is a Christian Club.
Erdogan is working slowly but surely towards the Islamic Republic Of Turkey,and that dream would die the moment Turkey enters the EU>>>

If what you believe to be true Bir, that Erdogan wants a Islamic state for Turkey, and that if you think the EU will kill it for him by joining, despite EU's principles on "Freedom of Religion", then for sure the Turkish Military will kill it for him along with many politicians and Turkish citizens if they tried to become an Islamic state without the EU's protection. Don't think for a moment the USA is going to hold the Turkish Military back from destroying Erdogan's Islamic state dreams, even if it means renewed military rule in Turkey for another 20 years from that moment on with another military hand written new Turkish Constitution, as the case was with the last Turkish Constitution. So I don't know how Erdogan wins if he does not want to join the EU and have Islamic state dreams for Turkey at the same time. He doesn't in my opinion.!

The way I read this,Kikapu, is this : The USA believes it is in her interest now to have Turkey become a mildly democratic Islamic republic...Which the USA think they would control...That is why the USA is opposing a military coup...I believe the USA is wrong...You cannot have a mildly Islamic republic...And it cannot be controlled once out of the bottle...Hope I am wrong...

You might be interested in the following article, if you haven't seen it before, although I am sure that the link between Fetullah Gülen and the USA's "moderate Islam" policy is not new to you:

http://www.afrikagazetesi.net/modules.p ... artid=6879

Thanks,Tim...I have been aware of the link for some time...Another American foreign policy initiative which might go terribly wrong...Most people here do not seem to see the forest from the trees.As I said,we live in interesting times...That is a Chinese curse by the way...(May you live in interesting times!)

I agree. The USA is making a huge error of judgment which could eventually see a Turkey ruled by political Islam becoming closely aligned to Iran, the latter having been made immensely stronger by the recent American neo-con debacle in the Middle East. I remain hopeful that this will not happen because:

1) despite all the interference, there remains strong support among a significant portion of the Turkish population for the secular Republic, and
2) political Islam essentially developed as a reaction to the failure of the Arab world to modernise and develop and has little of substance to offer - there are signs that the movement has already passed its zenith and is moving into decline.

The irony is that if you want 'moderate Islam' this is what you actually have now in Turkey under a secular Republic.

[BirKibrisli]

see cyprus does eu a favour by having this problem and not letting turkey in the eu.. i think it would be a huge mistake to allow turkey in

Cyprus is shooting herself in the foot,by buttering Erdogan's bread...
How many times do I have to tell you? Erdogan and his goverment do not want to join the EU. They cannot say so openly at this stage, but they are using Cyprus and the other European short-sighted bigots to make sure they are never accepted into what they believe is a Christian Club.
Erdogan is working slowly but surely towards the Islamic Republic Of Turkey,and that dream would die the moment Turkey enters the EU>>>

If what you believe to be true Bir, that Erdogan wants a Islamic state for Turkey, and that if you think the EU will kill it for him by joining, despite EU's principles on "Freedom of Religion", then for sure the Turkish Military will kill it for him along with many politicians and Turkish citizens if they tried to become an Islamic state without the EU's protection. Don't think for a moment the USA is going to hold the Turkish Military back from destroying Erdogan's Islamic state dreams, even if it means renewed military rule in Turkey for another 20 years from that moment on with another military hand written new Turkish Constitution, as the case was with the last Turkish Constitution. So I don't know how Erdogan wins if he does not want to join the EU and have Islamic state dreams for Turkey at the same time. He doesn't in my opinion.!

The way I read this,Kikapu, is this : The USA believes it is in her interest now to have Turkey become a mildly democratic Islamic republic...Which the USA think they would control...That is why the USA is opposing a military coup...I believe the USA is wrong...You cannot have a mildly Islamic republic...And it cannot be controlled once out of the bottle...Hope I am wrong...

You might be interested in the following article, if you haven't seen it before, although I am sure that the link between Fetullah Gülen and the USA's "moderate Islam" policy is not new to you:

http://www.afrikagazetesi.net/modules.p ... artid=6879

Thanks,Tim...I have been aware of the link for some time...Another American foreign policy initiative which might go terribly wrong...Most people here do not seem to see the forest from the trees.As I said,we live in interesting times...That is a Chinese curse by the way...(May you live in interesting times!)

I agree. The USA is making a huge error of judgment which could eventually see a Turkey ruled by political Islam becoming closely aligned to Iran, the latter having been made immensely stronger by the recent American neo-con debacle in the Middle East. I remain hopeful that this will not happen because:

1) despite all the interference, there remains strong support among a significant portion of the Turkish population for the secular Republic, and
2) political Islam essentially developed as a reaction to the failure of the Arab world to modernise and develop and has little of substance to offer - there are signs that the movement has already passed its zenith and is moving into decline.

The irony is that if you want 'moderate Islam' this is what you actually have now in Turkey under a secular Republic.

Of course...Religion should have no part to play in running a state...A secular Turkey could be a good example to certain Christian countries as well where the Church has undue influence over politics...It will be interesting to see how the AKP government will go with their changes to the Constitution...And how long will it take for the USA to wake up from their deep sleep...

[BirKibrisli]

see cyprus does eu a favour by having this problem and not letting turkey in the eu.. i think it would be a huge mistake to allow turkey in

Cyprus is shooting herself in the foot,by buttering Erdogan's bread...
How many times do I have to tell you? Erdogan and his goverment do not want to join the EU. They cannot say so openly at this stage, but they are using Cyprus and the other European short-sighted bigots to make sure they are never accepted into what they believe is a Christian Club.
Erdogan is working slowly but surely towards the Islamic Republic Of Turkey,and that dream would die the moment Turkey enters the EU>>>

If what you believe to be true Bir, that Erdogan wants a Islamic state for Turkey, and that if you think the EU will kill it for him by joining, despite EU's principles on "Freedom of Religion", then for sure the Turkish Military will kill it for him along with many politicians and Turkish citizens if they tried to become an Islamic state without the EU's protection. Don't think for a moment the USA is going to hold the Turkish Military back from destroying Erdogan's Islamic state dreams, even if it means renewed military rule in Turkey for another 20 years from that moment on with another military hand written new Turkish Constitution, as the case was with the last Turkish Constitution. So I don't know how Erdogan wins if he does not want to join the EU and have Islamic state dreams for Turkey at the same time. He doesn't in my opinion.!

The way I read this,Kikapu, is this : The USA believes it is in her interest now to have Turkey become a mildly democratic Islamic republic...Which the USA think they would control...That is why the USA is opposing a military coup...I believe the USA is wrong...You cannot have a mildly Islamic republic...And it cannot be controlled once out of the bottle...Hope I am wrong...

You might be interested in the following article, if you haven't seen it before, although I am sure that the link between Fetullah Gülen and the USA's "moderate Islam" policy is not new to you:

http://www.afrikagazetesi.net/modules.p ... artid=6879

Thanks,Tim...I have been aware of the link for some time...Another American foreign policy initiative which might go terribly wrong...Most people here do not seem to see the forest from the trees.As I said,we live in interesting times...That is a Chinese curse by the way...(May you live in interesting times!)

Can you pass the dreaded curse on to Big Ears and DT.

Dont worry we have all got the curse since late 40s...

[DTA]

Bir what has Erdogan and his party done to suggest that he is trying to move Turkey to a More islamic model?

From what I have seen (but I am far from an expert) he seems to be making all the right noises - the army has always had to much power in Turkey and often abused that power by coup(ing) every five minutes or decade or so.... dont you agree?

[Tim Drayton]

Here is an interesting and perceptive article in English about the extraordinary power wielded by Fetullah Gülen:

http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-g ... d-ambition

[BirKibrisli]

Bir what has Erdogan and his party done to suggest that he is trying to move Turkey to a More islamic model?

From what I have seen (but I am far from an expert) he seems to be making all the right noises - the army has always had to much power in Turkey and often abused that power by coup(ing) every five minutes or decade or so.... dont you agree?

Sure, the military had too much power and were used by the USA to achieve certain objectives in the past...But they are/were the guardians of secularism in Turkey...Erdogan is trying hard to neutralise the political power of the military and hence curtail the effectiveness of the "deep State"...This is not a problem...The problem is they are now trying to change the Constitution in such a way to give them control over the judiciary system,the High Court and the Constitutional court for example.

The AKP's Islamic roots and ambitions are not secret...At the municipal level they are doing things which give away their Islamic ambitions...Selling of alcohol in certain municipalities(under the AKP control) are forbidden. Shops are forced to close at prayer times,and at RAmazan restaurants are not allowed to serve food during the fasting time...Women in many parts or Turkey are covering up,and once they control the judiciary they will reintroduce their bill to remove the ban from wearing the Islamic hijab at schools, universities, and government buildings..This looks like a welcome democratic move,but the result will be that all women would feel the pressure (at work and in the street) to cover up,slowly forcing them to a more traditional role as homemakers...

Many people fear these are just the beginning...There is talk amongst the AKP circles (reported in the secular papers) of the desirability to introduce "religious councils" to advise government departments on social and moral isssues...It will be a small step from there to the establishment of religious courts a la Iran...The future of Turkey does not look very democratic under this Government,although the illusion is they are doing everything to advance the democratisation of society...This is where the EU requirements come in handy...That is why the pretense is they want to join...

[Paphitis]

see cyprus does eu a favour by having this problem and not letting turkey in the eu.. i think it would be a huge mistake to allow turkey in

Cyprus is shooting herself in the foot,by buttering Erdogan's bread...
How many times do I have to tell you? Erdogan and his goverment do not want to join the EU. They cannot say so openly at this stage, but they are using Cyprus and the other European short-sighted bigots to make sure they are never accepted into what they believe is a Christian Club.
Erdogan is working slowly but surely towards the Islamic Republic Of Turkey,and that dream would die the moment Turkey enters the EU>>>

As far as we are concerned, we would like Turkey to become an Islamic Republic as soon as possible. The US of A will crucify you bitches!

[DT.]

see cyprus does eu a favour by having this problem and not letting turkey in the eu.. i think it would be a huge mistake to allow turkey in

Cyprus is shooting herself in the foot,by buttering Erdogan's bread...
How many times do I have to tell you? Erdogan and his goverment do not want to join the EU. They cannot say so openly at this stage, but they are using Cyprus and the other European short-sighted bigots to make sure they are never accepted into what they believe is a Christian Club.
Erdogan is working slowly but surely towards the Islamic Republic Of Turkey,and that dream would die the moment Turkey enters the EU>>>

As far as we are concerned, we would like Turkey to become an Islamic Republic as soon as possible. The US of A will crucify you bitches!

Paphiti, what Bir is doing now is obvious and is well intended. He honestly feels that the only salvation for TC's and GC's (in that order) in Cyprus is for the GC's to accept what is on offer (since that "big volatile" Turkey can't be counted on to change) so that we can stop the destruction of Cyprus.

If you as a GC feel that you have leverage over Turkey with the EU, this in his mind will only cloud your judgement to accept the "feasible" solution and not the desired.

What Bir doesn't realise is that most of us are not after the desirable, but something workable.

Push the GC's too much and you will be left with an island where the majority will feel cheated and 2nd class citizens and then watch as the 60's and 70's on this island will be remembered like a trip to Club Med.

We, here in Cyprus cannot let that happen. We want a fair solution to ALL Cypriots and not a fair solution for Turkey.

[Paphitis]

Interesting about the schools. Considering there are 'English' schools in Cyprus where the Greek Language is not a compulsory subject (though English is) and I haven't heard any GCs objecting to that. It surprised me when I first moved here. I know teenagers who have attended them for 10 yrs and can speak hardly a word of Greek.

There's a fundamental flaw in your argument, amusing as it is.

RoC citizens choose to go English school and the analogy would be Germans going to Turkish schools.

We all know that these Turkish schools will be for ethnic Turks, thus propogating the islamist model of separation and intollerance.

Are you for real??? There are English schools,German schools,French schools,Armenian,and soon a Greek School I believe,in Turkey...Why can't we have a Turkish school in Germany where 3 million Turks live???Is this your idea of democracy and human rights,you know, the kind you preach for Cyprus???

Who said that school would only be for German children of Turkish background? It would be for anybody who wants to go there...Overwhelming majority would of course be of Turkish background,but not because of restrictions,but because most German parents would share your blind prejudices against such a school...

Bir, I have nothing against Turkish being taught in any country as a second language but the primary language should be the oficial language of the country. For the sake of the children otherwise they will be disadvantaged when it comes to entering University and the job market.

This bad idea is/was tried out in California where Mexican Spanish speaking Americans and illegals were tought in their own language at the tax payers expense, and in the end, the Mexican kids spoke very bad English, because they were tought in Spanish and they learned more about Mexico than they did about America. As a result, they lacked a good education for them to compete with other Americans. I agree with YFred on this one, that, primary education has to be the one provided in the country one lives in. This is not to say that there can't be private language schools that teaches anything under the sun, but the cost has to come from the parents and not from the tax payers. If Erdogan wants German-Turkish kids to be tought in Turkish, then Turkey should pay for their private tution in Germany or he should pay for them to be brought to Turkey for them to be tought there.!

I see both your points Kikapu and YFred...But teaching in the host country's primary language is also not a guarantee that children who come from another background and whose mother tongue is something else will NOT be disadvantaged...In fact I see this often in Australia...If there is no special or remedial English classes these kids fall behind the others,often get put in "slow" classes and end up with all sorts of psychological and academic problems...Given the fact that often their parents cannot speak English well they lack home support as well...So they either leave school prematurely or the parents have to pay a lot of money for private coaching...There is a lot of merit in educating them in their mother tongue,making sure that they also learn the host language well...AFter all these people pay their taxes as well,but their children do not get the same benefits from the education system because of the language disadvantage...

What the hell are you on about?

Quite often, children from 'other backgrounds' outperform Aussie kids mainly because they are hard working and diligent.

And if they want to learn a second language, they can attend privately funded schools. Germany is quite correct to reject Turkey's demands for Turkish State schools, and I believe that Australia would do the same thing, but imbeciles like you would only label Australian society as "racist".

Children in Australia need to learn English first and foremost. It will always be the only official language, and if some children are struggling with it, then all the more reason for those children to concentrate on mastering the language which will assist them to enter university or the work force. Furthermore, I don't believe that children from 'other backgrounds' are struggling with English. Our education system is second to none, and offers much support to struggling students.

[Tim Drayton]

see cyprus does eu a favour by having this problem and not letting turkey in the eu.. i think it would be a huge mistake to allow turkey in

Cyprus is shooting herself in the foot,by buttering Erdogan's bread...
How many times do I have to tell you? Erdogan and his goverment do not want to join the EU. They cannot say so openly at this stage, but they are using Cyprus and the other European short-sighted bigots to make sure they are never accepted into what they believe is a Christian Club.
Erdogan is working slowly but surely towards the Islamic Republic Of Turkey,and that dream would die the moment Turkey enters the EU>>>

As far as we are concerned, we would like Turkey to become an Islamic Republic as soon as possible. The US of A will crucify you bitches!

Funny that. Iraq, despite being led by a brutal monster, was one of the most secular Arab countries and Afghanistan was insignificant. Yet these two have been 'crucified' while the Islamic state of Iran has only grown in strength.