Cyprus-Forum.com

[kafenes]

Here is one of the two rugs I have. They were already old when my great grandparents brought them over with them (circa maybe 1870-80?? maybe older). The other rug is in a little better condition but couldn't be bothered to unpack. Interesting design, looks like a church alter to me.

[denizaksulu]

Here is one of the two rugs I have. They were already old when my great grandparents brought them over with them (circa maybe 1870-80?? maybe older). The other rug is in a little better condition but couldn't be bothered to unpack. Interesting design, looks like a church alter to me.

That is a 'seccade' Kafenes. It is a prayer rug on which the devout moslems sit and pray. (seccade derives from the Arabic sucud = to sit. Almost all the prayer rugs have the same what you call 'church altar' motif. When not in use it is rolled up, or if never used it is hung on a wall.

[denizaksulu]

Kafenes, the shape you described is the shape of the MIHRAB (a niche)in a mosque. The mihrab is in the direction of Mecca. The rug is placed with the top of the design pointing towards Mecca.

[Oracle]

Thank you deniz. We are aware the enslaved Greeks and Armenians working under the whip of the Otto-Turks had to hide the real nature of their designs!

On a similar note:

~

LESSONS IN THE SPECIFIC

In 1785 one J. Griffiths, an English doctor, made the inland journey from Smyrna to Konia. He was generally literate in textile matters. For example, at "Allah-Sheer" (old Philadelphia) he commented: "Coarse cottons and carpets are here manufactured; the art of dyeing is said to be better understood than in most parts of the neighbouring country." (21) Four days later, at an unnamed village apparently two stages before Konia, he made a minor but quite significant observation: "In this village we found several hundred Greeks, who pursued an advantageous commerce in wollen cloths, and carpets of the Turkish manufacture; which, when finished, are forwarded to Koniah, and from thence to Constantinople and Persia." (22)

It is not difficult to arrive at a fair interpretation of this statement. The shipment to Konia can be taken as so, the further shipment less so, as Griffiths followed the product to Konia, but not further. (A more normal export route from Konia would have been Smyrna.) There is no question about the inhabitants being Greek, and their being weavers, not merely traders, for the comment "when finished" puts manufacture in the village. While the phrase "of the Turkish manufacture" is less than design specific, chances seem very good that a Turkish type rug is being referred to. The moral of this bit of reality is quite simple: speculation about either origins or design progression within a carpet type which ignores the possibility of ethnic diversity among weavers can only be deficient. Those who use materials and/or design change to locate or to date rugs make the unstated assumption that the only variables are place and time. In many rug weaving areas the omission of an ethnic variable is untenable.
http://rob.com/wrights

[kafenes]

Kafenes, the shape you described is the shape of the MIHRAB (a niche)in a mosque. The mihrab is in the direction of Mecca. The rug is placed with the top of the design pointing towards Mecca.

Thanks Deniz, very interesting. I certainly don't use it for prayers so they'll stay both rolled in the cupboard.

[denizaksulu]

Thank you deniz. We are aware the enslaved Greeks and Armenians working under the whip of the Otto-Turks had to hide the real nature of their designs!

On a similar note:

~

LESSONS IN THE SPECIFIC

In 1785 one J. Griffiths, an English doctor, made the inland journey from Smyrna to Konia. He was generally literate in textile matters. For example, at "Allah-Sheer" (old Philadelphia) he commented: "Coarse cottons and carpets are here manufactured; the art of dyeing is said to be better understood than in most parts of the neighbouring country." (21) Four days later, at an unnamed village apparently two stages before Konia, he made a minor but quite significant observation: "In this village we found several hundred Greeks, who pursued an advantageous commerce in wollen cloths, and carpets of the Turkish manufacture; which, when finished, are forwarded to Koniah, and from thence to Constantinople and Persia." (22)

It is not difficult to arrive at a fair interpretation of this statement. The shipment to Konia can be taken as so, the further shipment less so, as Griffiths followed the product to Konia, but not further. (A more normal export route from Konia would have been Smyrna.) There is no question about the inhabitants being Greek, and their being weavers, not merely traders, for the comment "when finished" puts manufacture in the village. While the phrase "of the Turkish manufacture" is less than design specific, chances seem very good that a Turkish type rug is being referred to. The moral of this bit of reality is quite simple: speculation about either origins or design progression within a carpet type which ignores the possibility of ethnic diversity among weavers can only be deficient. Those who use materials and/or design change to locate or to date rugs make the unstated assumption that the only variables are place and time. In many rug weaving areas the omission of an ethnic variable is untenable.
http://rob.com/wrights

Yes Oracle, I am pretty aware of the peoples of Anatolia pre-1923.

The rugs = Made in Turkey. I do not dispute that FACT. Like the cotton mills in Bradford; Made in England, not made by the Indian/Pakistanis.

[Oracle]

Thank you deniz. We are aware the enslaved Greeks and Armenians working under the whip of the Otto-Turks had to hide the real nature of their designs!

On a similar note:

~

LESSONS IN THE SPECIFIC

In 1785 one J. Griffiths, an English doctor, made the inland journey from Smyrna to Konia. He was generally literate in textile matters. For example, at "Allah-Sheer" (old Philadelphia) he commented: "Coarse cottons and carpets are here manufactured; the art of dyeing is said to be better understood than in most parts of the neighbouring country." (21) Four days later, at an unnamed village apparently two stages before Konia, he made a minor but quite significant observation: "In this village we found several hundred Greeks, who pursued an advantageous commerce in wollen cloths, and carpets of the Turkish manufacture; which, when finished, are forwarded to Koniah, and from thence to Constantinople and Persia." (22)

It is not difficult to arrive at a fair interpretation of this statement. The shipment to Konia can be taken as so, the further shipment less so, as Griffiths followed the product to Konia, but not further. (A more normal export route from Konia would have been Smyrna.) There is no question about the inhabitants being Greek, and their being weavers, not merely traders, for the comment "when finished" puts manufacture in the village. While the phrase "of the Turkish manufacture" is less than design specific, chances seem very good that a Turkish type rug is being referred to. The moral of this bit of reality is quite simple: speculation about either origins or design progression within a carpet type which ignores the possibility of ethnic diversity among weavers can only be deficient. Those who use materials and/or design change to locate or to date rugs make the unstated assumption that the only variables are place and time. In many rug weaving areas the omission of an ethnic variable is untenable.
http://rob.com/wrights

Yes Oracle, I am pretty aware of the peoples of Anatolia pre-1923.

The rugs = Made in Turkey. I do not dispute that FACT. Like the cotton mills in Bradford; Made in England, not made by the Indian/Pakistanis.

Deniz ... there is a huge difference between pre-1923 "Turkey" which was the land of many other ethnic groups for thousands of years; and modern day or Victorian England which was sovereign territory then and now.

Besides, these sources are merely explaining the reason why "Ottoman" rugs were of a higher quality than the Turkish rugs of today (which lack the creativity and craft of the expelled/slaughtered Greeks and Armenians). If you have evidence for cotton production being different in quality because of different ethnic groups carrying out the processing, then feel free to explain it to us.

[Gasman]

Why don't you just find a 'GREECE-FORUM' to post your diatribes on?

[denizaksulu]

Thank you deniz. We are aware the enslaved Greeks and Armenians working under the whip of the Otto-Turks had to hide the real nature of their designs!

On a similar note:

~

LESSONS IN THE SPECIFIC

In 1785 one J. Griffiths, an English doctor, made the inland journey from Smyrna to Konia. He was generally literate in textile matters. For example, at "Allah-Sheer" (old Philadelphia) he commented: "Coarse cottons and carpets are here manufactured; the art of dyeing is said to be better understood than in most parts of the neighbouring country." (21) Four days later, at an unnamed village apparently two stages before Konia, he made a minor but quite significant observation: "In this village we found several hundred Greeks, who pursued an advantageous commerce in wollen cloths, and carpets of the Turkish manufacture; which, when finished, are forwarded to Koniah, and from thence to Constantinople and Persia." (22)

It is not difficult to arrive at a fair interpretation of this statement. The shipment to Konia can be taken as so, the further shipment less so, as Griffiths followed the product to Konia, but not further. (A more normal export route from Konia would have been Smyrna.) There is no question about the inhabitants being Greek, and their being weavers, not merely traders, for the comment "when finished" puts manufacture in the village. While the phrase "of the Turkish manufacture" is less than design specific, chances seem very good that a Turkish type rug is being referred to. The moral of this bit of reality is quite simple: speculation about either origins or design progression within a carpet type which ignores the possibility of ethnic diversity among weavers can only be deficient. Those who use materials and/or design change to locate or to date rugs make the unstated assumption that the only variables are place and time. In many rug weaving areas the omission of an ethnic variable is untenable.
http://rob.com/wrights

Yes Oracle, I am pretty aware of the peoples of Anatolia pre-1923.

The rugs = Made in Turkey. I do not dispute that FACT. Like the cotton mills in Bradford; Made in England, not made by the Indian/Pakistanis.

Deniz ... there is a huge difference between pre-1923 "Turkey" which was the land of many other ethnic groups for thousands of years; and modern day or Victorian England which was sovereign territory then and now.

Besides, these sources are merely explaining the reason why "Ottoman" rugs were of a higher quality than the Turkish rugs of today (which lack the creativity and craft of the expelled/slaughtered Greeks and Armenians). If you have evidence for cotton production being different in quality because of different ethnic groups carrying out the processing, then feel free to explain it to us.

Not my bone of contention. I cannot claim to be an expert on Kilims/Hali's. If you say the Ottoman ones were of a higher quality, I might take your word for it. As they say, the world over, 'thay never make 'em like they used to; but as I said............me know nothink. They still sell though.

GR trod on a carpet 3 years ago, costing £37,000 pounds. That was made in Balujistan. I liked it. It felt good too.

[bill cobbett]

Thank you deniz. We are aware the enslaved Greeks and Armenians working under the whip of the Otto-Turks had to hide the real nature of their designs!

On a similar note:

~

LESSONS IN THE SPECIFIC

In 1785 one J. Griffiths, an English doctor, made the inland journey from Smyrna to Konia. He was generally literate in textile matters. For example, at "Allah-Sheer" (old Philadelphia) he commented: "Coarse cottons and carpets are here manufactured; the art of dyeing is said to be better understood than in most parts of the neighbouring country." (21) Four days later, at an unnamed village apparently two stages before Konia, he made a minor but quite significant observation: "In this village we found several hundred Greeks, who pursued an advantageous commerce in wollen cloths, and carpets of the Turkish manufacture; which, when finished, are forwarded to Koniah, and from thence to Constantinople and Persia." (22)

It is not difficult to arrive at a fair interpretation of this statement. The shipment to Konia can be taken as so, the further shipment less so, as Griffiths followed the product to Konia, but not further. (A more normal export route from Konia would have been Smyrna.) There is no question about the inhabitants being Greek, and their being weavers, not merely traders, for the comment "when finished" puts manufacture in the village. While the phrase "of the Turkish manufacture" is less than design specific, chances seem very good that a Turkish type rug is being referred to. The moral of this bit of reality is quite simple: speculation about either origins or design progression within a carpet type which ignores the possibility of ethnic diversity among weavers can only be deficient. Those who use materials and/or design change to locate or to date rugs make the unstated assumption that the only variables are place and time. In many rug weaving areas the omission of an ethnic variable is untenable.
http://rob.com/wrights

Yes Oracle, I am pretty aware of the peoples of Anatolia pre-1923.

The rugs = Made in Turkey. I do not dispute that FACT. Like the cotton mills in Bradford; Made in England, not made by the Indian/Pakistanis.

Ahem ...... cough ..... cough ...... splutter ...... cough ...... (must give up smoking) ...... cough ....

Bradford >>>>> Wool cough cough cough Co .... Co Cot C...Cotton M ....Mm ....Man .......Manchester. Cough .... Cough .... (need a glass of water.)