Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Bir , the term "they" should be followed by extremists, since I believe that the overwhelming majority of both G/Cs and T/Cs are reasonable moderates who apply good logic based on realities and not on historical corrupting ideologies , those of us who honestly recognize that this island can be shared amongst its dwellers do so because we believe in the probity of the Cypriot people. Over the years on this forum I have made some very good friends , met many but I'm also conscious of the fact that my robust challenges directed at those whose views I consider nonconstructive to the struggle to unite our island and inspire our people to abandon those ideologies that were responsible for all the misery suffered , have made me rather unpopular with nationalists from both sides.
Steadfastly I have remained loyal to my convictions that all of us are primarily Cypriots with much in common in many areas .

I hope you are right,dear miltiades..But going by the opinions of people who post here your optimism might not be supported in reality...I would very much like to think that the average Cypriot has more common sense and sensibility than what is shown here...I will reserve my final judgement for when I make a long visit to Cyprus and spend quality time on both sides...In the mean time I will try not to let the extremists get me down too much...

[Byron]

In the UK, all Cypriots have learned to live and work happily together.

It is unfortunate that for too many years the two main communities, living in Cyprus itself, have become isolated from each other and somewhat estranged.

There have been some joint initiatives of recent years, but these activities need to be stepped up and encouraged.

The reason Cypriots happily live and work together in the UK is because they are governed by a third party !!!

[Byron]

Religion is the ammunition that unarmed men are given by their religious faith in order to arm themselves and kill each other !!

To the vast majority of people religion represents their faith and has nothing to do with arming people to kill , you watch too much television.

Most wars included a major element of faith ! Blind faith !
Who said religion is the opium of the people.
Byron , God exists because people want him /her /it to exist just like they want Father Christmas to exist , and he does in children's minds.

It is obvious you are not a religious person so there is no point in discussing the matter further; however please remember that when posting to choose your words carefully as it could offend !

[Bananiot]

A non religious person probably started life as a religious person. I started life being religious, couldn't do otherwise. Then, while in the early teens, it occurred to me that most of our saints were Cypriots. This created serious doubts in my young, maturing brain as to the ability of Cypriots to be saints. Then I started asking my teachers simple questions, of the type, "why did Jesus remove the daemons from the crazy guy and gave it to the pigs"? He could have given it to the winds. Why to the poor pigs? Once I asked my religious instructions teacher, who was a priest, this question. If god exists and he is wise and all that, why is he playing games with us? Why is he interested in the type of food we put into our stomach? Why doesn't he show himself up and when we pray to him to help us, isn't this rather selfish? All these and many more questions came to my mind quite early in life. Later in life I realised that we do not need the supernatural to attempt to answer difficult questions that may bother us. The way this world is run is in full accordance with the natural laws which are surely and steadily being discovered by science.

[miltiades]

Religion is the ammunition that unarmed men are given by their religious faith in order to arm themselves and kill each other !!

To the vast majority of people religion represents their faith and has nothing to do with arming people to kill , you watch too much television.

Most wars included a major element of faith ! Blind faith !
Who said religion is the opium of the people.
Byron , God exists because people want him /her /it to exist just like they want Father Christmas to exist , and he does in children's minds.

It is obvious you are not a religious person so there is no point in discussing the matter further; however please remember that when posting to choose your words carefully as it could offend !

Firstly let me say that I would never express my views on religion as well as on other matters either in front of children or in the presence of devout religious people whom I do not know. On this forum however we are in a way known to each other through the various posts and replies that we make or give. Also we are all adults and should be open about our views . Religion , in my opinion , is a human necessity just as food and water is, however some of us humans have been persuaded by our logic to abandon spiritual beliefs in a creator and to discard the so called faith in the Lord.
There is no God , says I and millions of other liberated people. The evidence of the non existence of a creator are massive only blind faith can possibly accept that somewhere a creator is watching over us , controlling nature and the universe which those who have blind faith believe that HE Created !!

[Piratis]

When you came to Cyprus (free areas) did you experience any bitterness and hatred against you? When Kikapu came to Cyprus (free parts) did he experience any bitterness and hatred?

No I did not,Piratis. And neither did Kikapu.I cannot speak for Kikapu,but my visit was not a true test of the GC feelings towards the TCs,as I was protected by my True Cypriot Brother and host...The people I met were his family and friends,including 2 other True Cypriot Forumers.They were all kind,generous,lovely people...

Those who are hated are not hated because of their ethnic background, they are hated because they support the stealing of our lands and the violations of our human rights.

This is where YOU are confused,Piratis. You are lumping all TCs together and when we try to put our side of the story you claim we are supporting the stealing of your lands and violation of your human rights.There are 2 side to every story and you should allow people their right to their opinions without branding them thieves or supporters of thieves...
After the bloody events of 1963, 20 to 30 thousand Turkish Cypriots had to leave their villages or their unsafe suburbs in their towns,and became refugees...It was essentially ethnic cleansing.These people were made to fear for their lives,and they had no other choice but to seek shelter...Does this mean all GCs living at the time supported this ethnic cleansing? And the associated violation of their human rights? By your logic they must be...I am yet to hear you or anybody else accept any responsibility for the plight of these people at the time...What we get instead is how it was the TMT who ordered them to leave and how they followed like sheep in order to advance the cause of Taksim,which came about as a result of your demand for Enosis in the first place...

The vast majority of GCs do not hate anybody for what happened in the past. We are forgiving people. But when today you violate our human and democratic rights and you want to continue doing this in the future as well, do you really expect to be loved?

This is sheer propaganda ,Piratis...You see everything in black and white...You are the victims and we are the abusers..So you are justified in hating us...I am telling you that the TCs are the biggest losers in this conflict,and you still insist we want to violate your human and democratic rights...You have absolutely no empathy or compassion for the suffering of the TCs or the extend of their loss...As if only your pain matters,only your suffering is worth remembering...As if the TCs are somewhat less than civilised human beings...They would sell their country or their mothers for profit...I realise you do not understand the extend of your brainwashing,the severity of your hatred towards the TCs ,but it is there in every post you write...You are not just defending your own side,Piratis. You are dehumanising the TCs so you can justify your hatred and the punishment you want to dish out. This tactic was practiced very effectively by the Nazis against the Jews...We have learnt a thing or two from the sad events of the WWII...

I personally many times said that we should not try to blame each other for what happened in the past, but instead to end this circle of blood and allow Cyprus to be a free, democratic country, with respect to the human rights of all Cypriots and no segregation, racist discrimination and similar apartheid arrangements.

Then why do you keep putting the blame for everything on the TCs and Turkey...Why can't you admit that given our past we cannot simply wipe the slate clean and enjoy our new-found democratic "heaven" without doing a lot of hard work to build mutual trust and understanding and respect?Why do you keep insisting that people who tell you you must acknowledge your mistakes,apologise,and show your vulnerable minority you have learnt the lessons from the past are all thieves or supporters of thieves?

Unfortunately you (and most TCs in this forum) do want to play the blame game because you are trying to blame us in order to have gains on our expense. When you (or any other) goes back in history looking for excuses, then shouldn't I also go back in history to refute his lame excuses by presenting the real share of blame that each side has for past events? You want me to stay silent and allow the Turkish propaganda to pass?

We don't go back to history to look for excuses,Piratis...We go back to history to see clearly where both sides have gone wrong,and what can we do to fix it now...fix it such that it will never happen again...But for you everything that does not compute with your version of the events is Turkish propaganda...You cannot allow even the shadow of a doubt that your side might be the biggest culprit in our sorry saga...No,I dont want you to stay silent,but I want you to introduce some objectivity and reality into your thinking,just enough to make you realise we ,the TCs, are at least as much victims of the Cyprus problem as the GCs...This might allow you to feel some understanding and empathy so necessary if we are going to live together in one country under the conditions you say you want...

Bir, what you should have learned from history is that you can not "fix" things with human rights violations, racist discriminations and segregation. You can only make things worst.

If you had accepted to be equal Cypriots and have learned to respect the democratic choices that the Cypriot people take as a whole then we wouldn't have any problem between us, just like we don't have any problem with the other Cypriot minorities.

As Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried". So if there is one lesson that we should have learned from the past is this.

Cyprus is not the only country which had ethnic conflicts and problems. Many countries did. The countries who succeeded to resolve those problems didn't do it by increasing the racist discrimination and segregation, they did it by abolishing such anachronistic things.

Racists and Nazis are those who want to punish a whole community and make a whole community "pay the price" (your words) for what happened in the past. Personally I judge each person separately and I never asked that any innocent TC should be punished because of the crimes that the TC leadership, TMT and Turkey have committed against us. I have clearly and several times condemned the killings of innocent TCs which were committed by GC extremists during conflicts and wars which were initiated by TC extremists and Turkey. On the other hand you today support yet more crimes against 100s of thousands of innocent Greek Cypriots.

[Oracle]

A non religious person probably started life as a religious person. I started life being religious, couldn't do otherwise. Then, while in the early teens, it occurred to me that most of our saints were Cypriots. This created serious doubts in my young, maturing brain as to the ability of Cypriots to be saints. Then I started asking my teachers simple questions, of the type, "why did Jesus remove the daemons from the crazy guy and gave it to the pigs"? He could have given it to the winds. Why to the poor pigs? Once I asked my religious instructions teacher, who was a priest, this question. If god exists and he is wise and all that, why is he playing games with us? Why is he interested in the type of food we put into our stomach? Why doesn't he show himself up and when we pray to him to help us, isn't this rather selfish? All these and many more questions came to my mind quite early in life. Later in life I realised that we do not need the supernatural to attempt to answer difficult questions that may bother us. The way this world is run is in full accordance with the natural laws which are surely and steadily being discovered by science.

10/10 Bananiot!

[denizaksulu]

A non religious person probably started life as a religious person. I started life being religious, couldn't do otherwise. Then, while in the early teens, it occurred to me that most of our saints were Cypriots. This created serious doubts in my young, maturing brain as to the ability of Cypriots to be saints. Then I started asking my teachers simple questions, of the type, "why did Jesus remove the daemons from the crazy guy and gave it to the pigs"? He could have given it to the winds. Why to the poor pigs? Once I asked my religious instructions teacher, who was a priest, this question. If god exists and he is wise and all that, why is he playing games with us? Why is he interested in the type of food we put into our stomach? Why doesn't he show himself up and when we pray to him to help us, isn't this rather selfish? All these and many more questions came to my mind quite early in life. Later in life I realised that we do not need the supernatural to attempt to answer difficult questions that may bother us. The way this world is run is in full accordance with the natural laws which are surely and steadily being discovered by science.

10/10 Bananiot!

No painted eggs for you then!!!

[BirKibrisli]

When you came to Cyprus (free areas) did you experience any bitterness and hatred against you? When Kikapu came to Cyprus (free parts) did he experience any bitterness and hatred?

No I did not,Piratis. And neither did Kikapu.I cannot speak for Kikapu,but my visit was not a true test of the GC feelings towards the TCs,as I was protected by my True Cypriot Brother and host...The people I met were his family and friends,including 2 other True Cypriot Forumers.They were all kind,generous,lovely people...

Those who are hated are not hated because of their ethnic background, they are hated because they support the stealing of our lands and the violations of our human rights.

This is where YOU are confused,Piratis. You are lumping all TCs together and when we try to put our side of the story you claim we are supporting the stealing of your lands and violation of your human rights.There are 2 side to every story and you should allow people their right to their opinions without branding them thieves or supporters of thieves...
After the bloody events of 1963, 20 to 30 thousand Turkish Cypriots had to leave their villages or their unsafe suburbs in their towns,and became refugees...It was essentially ethnic cleansing.These people were made to fear for their lives,and they had no other choice but to seek shelter...Does this mean all GCs living at the time supported this ethnic cleansing? And the associated violation of their human rights? By your logic they must be...I am yet to hear you or anybody else accept any responsibility for the plight of these people at the time...What we get instead is how it was the TMT who ordered them to leave and how they followed like sheep in order to advance the cause of Taksim,which came about as a result of your demand for Enosis in the first place...

The vast majority of GCs do not hate anybody for what happened in the past. We are forgiving people. But when today you violate our human and democratic rights and you want to continue doing this in the future as well, do you really expect to be loved?

This is sheer propaganda ,Piratis...You see everything in black and white...You are the victims and we are the abusers..So you are justified in hating us...I am telling you that the TCs are the biggest losers in this conflict,and you still insist we want to violate your human and democratic rights...You have absolutely no empathy or compassion for the suffering of the TCs or the extend of their loss...As if only your pain matters,only your suffering is worth remembering...As if the TCs are somewhat less than civilised human beings...They would sell their country or their mothers for profit...I realise you do not understand the extend of your brainwashing,the severity of your hatred towards the TCs ,but it is there in every post you write...You are not just defending your own side,Piratis. You are dehumanising the TCs so you can justify your hatred and the punishment you want to dish out. This tactic was practiced very effectively by the Nazis against the Jews...We have learnt a thing or two from the sad events of the WWII...

I personally many times said that we should not try to blame each other for what happened in the past, but instead to end this circle of blood and allow Cyprus to be a free, democratic country, with respect to the human rights of all Cypriots and no segregation, racist discrimination and similar apartheid arrangements.

Then why do you keep putting the blame for everything on the TCs and Turkey...Why can't you admit that given our past we cannot simply wipe the slate clean and enjoy our new-found democratic "heaven" without doing a lot of hard work to build mutual trust and understanding and respect?Why do you keep insisting that people who tell you you must acknowledge your mistakes,apologise,and show your vulnerable minority you have learnt the lessons from the past are all thieves or supporters of thieves?

Unfortunately you (and most TCs in this forum) do want to play the blame game because you are trying to blame us in order to have gains on our expense. When you (or any other) goes back in history looking for excuses, then shouldn't I also go back in history to refute his lame excuses by presenting the real share of blame that each side has for past events? You want me to stay silent and allow the Turkish propaganda to pass?

We don't go back to history to look for excuses,Piratis...We go back to history to see clearly where both sides have gone wrong,and what can we do to fix it now...fix it such that it will never happen again...But for you everything that does not compute with your version of the events is Turkish propaganda...You cannot allow even the shadow of a doubt that your side might be the biggest culprit in our sorry saga...No,I dont want you to stay silent,but I want you to introduce some objectivity and reality into your thinking,just enough to make you realise we ,the TCs, are at least as much victims of the Cyprus problem as the GCs...This might allow you to feel some understanding and empathy so necessary if we are going to live together in one country under the conditions you say you want...

Bir, what you should have learned from history is that you can not "fix" things with human rights violations, racist discriminations and segregation. You can only make things worst.

If you had accepted to be equal Cypriots and have learned to respect the democratic choices that the Cypriot people take as a whole then we wouldn't have any problem between us, just like we don't have any problem with the other Cypriot minorities.

As Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried". So if there is one lesson that we should have learned from the past is this.

Cyprus is not the only country which had ethnic conflicts and problems. Many countries did. The countries who succeeded to resolve those problems didn't do it by increasing the racist discrimination and segregation, they did it by abolishing such anachronistic things.

Racists and Nazis are those who want to punish a whole community and make a whole community "pay the price" (your words) for what happened in the past. Personally I judge each person separately and I never asked that any innocent TC should be punished because of the crimes that the TC leadership, TMT and Turkey have committed against us. I have clearly and several times condemned the killings of innocent TCs which were committed by GC extremists during conflicts and wars which were initiated by TC extremists and Turkey. On the other hand you today support yet more crimes against 100s of thousands of innocent Greek Cypriots.

You are wrong,Piratis...I do not support any crimes against anybody,let alone the GCs who I consider my brother/sisters and compatriots...I have a very strong sense of justice...Justice for everyone,not just your own kind which is what you are advocating...As long as you turn a blind eye to our history and as long as you only see Cyprus problem as crimes and injustice against the GCs,I will pop up everywhere to remind you of the truth...You will not silence me by intimidations that I support crimes against you...You are brainwashed and I will re-brainwash you till you see the realities objectively...

[YFred]

When you came to Cyprus (free areas) did you experience any bitterness and hatred against you? When Kikapu came to Cyprus (free parts) did he experience any bitterness and hatred?

No I did not,Piratis. And neither did Kikapu.I cannot speak for Kikapu,but my visit was not a true test of the GC feelings towards the TCs,as I was protected by my True Cypriot Brother and host...The people I met were his family and friends,including 2 other True Cypriot Forumers.They were all kind,generous,lovely people...

Those who are hated are not hated because of their ethnic background, they are hated because they support the stealing of our lands and the violations of our human rights.

This is where YOU are confused,Piratis. You are lumping all TCs together and when we try to put our side of the story you claim we are supporting the stealing of your lands and violation of your human rights.There are 2 side to every story and you should allow people their right to their opinions without branding them thieves or supporters of thieves...
After the bloody events of 1963, 20 to 30 thousand Turkish Cypriots had to leave their villages or their unsafe suburbs in their towns,and became refugees...It was essentially ethnic cleansing.These people were made to fear for their lives,and they had no other choice but to seek shelter...Does this mean all GCs living at the time supported this ethnic cleansing? And the associated violation of their human rights? By your logic they must be...I am yet to hear you or anybody else accept any responsibility for the plight of these people at the time...What we get instead is how it was the TMT who ordered them to leave and how they followed like sheep in order to advance the cause of Taksim,which came about as a result of your demand for Enosis in the first place...

The vast majority of GCs do not hate anybody for what happened in the past. We are forgiving people. But when today you violate our human and democratic rights and you want to continue doing this in the future as well, do you really expect to be loved?

This is sheer propaganda ,Piratis...You see everything in black and white...You are the victims and we are the abusers..So you are justified in hating us...I am telling you that the TCs are the biggest losers in this conflict,and you still insist we want to violate your human and democratic rights...You have absolutely no empathy or compassion for the suffering of the TCs or the extend of their loss...As if only your pain matters,only your suffering is worth remembering...As if the TCs are somewhat less than civilised human beings...They would sell their country or their mothers for profit...I realise you do not understand the extend of your brainwashing,the severity of your hatred towards the TCs ,but it is there in every post you write...You are not just defending your own side,Piratis. You are dehumanising the TCs so you can justify your hatred and the punishment you want to dish out. This tactic was practiced very effectively by the Nazis against the Jews...We have learnt a thing or two from the sad events of the WWII...

I personally many times said that we should not try to blame each other for what happened in the past, but instead to end this circle of blood and allow Cyprus to be a free, democratic country, with respect to the human rights of all Cypriots and no segregation, racist discrimination and similar apartheid arrangements.

Then why do you keep putting the blame for everything on the TCs and Turkey...Why can't you admit that given our past we cannot simply wipe the slate clean and enjoy our new-found democratic "heaven" without doing a lot of hard work to build mutual trust and understanding and respect?Why do you keep insisting that people who tell you you must acknowledge your mistakes,apologise,and show your vulnerable minority you have learnt the lessons from the past are all thieves or supporters of thieves?

Unfortunately you (and most TCs in this forum) do want to play the blame game because you are trying to blame us in order to have gains on our expense. When you (or any other) goes back in history looking for excuses, then shouldn't I also go back in history to refute his lame excuses by presenting the real share of blame that each side has for past events? You want me to stay silent and allow the Turkish propaganda to pass?

We don't go back to history to look for excuses,Piratis...We go back to history to see clearly where both sides have gone wrong,and what can we do to fix it now...fix it such that it will never happen again...But for you everything that does not compute with your version of the events is Turkish propaganda...You cannot allow even the shadow of a doubt that your side might be the biggest culprit in our sorry saga...No,I dont want you to stay silent,but I want you to introduce some objectivity and reality into your thinking,just enough to make you realise we ,the TCs, are at least as much victims of the Cyprus problem as the GCs...This might allow you to feel some understanding and empathy so necessary if we are going to live together in one country under the conditions you say you want...

Bir, what you should have learned from history is that you can not "fix" things with human rights violations, racist discriminations and segregation. You can only make things worst.

If you had accepted to be equal Cypriots and have learned to respect the democratic choices that the Cypriot people take as a whole then we wouldn't have any problem between us, just like we don't have any problem with the other Cypriot minorities.

As Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried". So if there is one lesson that we should have learned from the past is this.

Cyprus is not the only country which had ethnic conflicts and problems. Many countries did. The countries who succeeded to resolve those problems didn't do it by increasing the racist discrimination and segregation, they did it by abolishing such anachronistic things.

Racists and Nazis are those who want to punish a whole community and make a whole community "pay the price" (your words) for what happened in the past. Personally I judge each person separately and I never asked that any innocent TC should be punished because of the crimes that the TC leadership, TMT and Turkey have committed against us. I have clearly and several times condemned the killings of innocent TCs which were committed by GC extremists during conflicts and wars which were initiated by TC extremists and Turkey. On the other hand you today support yet more crimes against 100s of thousands of innocent Greek Cypriots.

You are wrong,Piratis...I do not support any crimes against anybody,let alone the GCs who I consider my brother/sisters and compatriots...I have a very strong sense of justice...Justice for everyone,not just your own kind which is what you are advocating...As long as you turn a blind eye to our history and as long as you only see Cyprus problem as crimes and injustice against the GCs,I will pop up everywhere to remind you of the truth...You will not silence me by intimidations that I support crimes against you...You are brainwashed and I will re-brainwash you till you see the realities objectively...

While you are at it, can you please make sure you use Domestos to do a good job, and make sure there is no eoka scale left anywhere near his brain.