Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz3]

If my uncle had not ignored the advice of the TC leadership / TMT in 1964 to not risk going into GC areas he would almost certainly still be alive today. As it was he did ignore the advise, continued to go to work as normal in a GC area in order to support his family despite the risk because he was non politcal and just wanted to get on with his life despite the intercommunal conflict. He was taken from his place of work in broad daylight by armed ethnic milita thugs, murdered and his body dumped in a well.

[erolz3]

(Not excusing the killing if it was politically motivated, but as B25 pointed out, the TCs who remained outside the enclaves were in more danger from the TMT than from GCs, as UN records confirm).

Yet more lies Oracle.

Yes TMT did kill TC, though far less than EOKA and its subsequent incarnations killed GC, but the simple and plain fact is that for ordinary TC going about their daily lives in this period the biggest threat to their saftey were the GC armed ethnic militas operating at will and in some case direct from and out of the Interior Ministers office. These groups killed more ordinary innocent TC than TMT ever did and by orders of magnitude.

[YFred]

If my uncle had not ignored the advice of the TC leadership / TMT in 1964 to not risk going into GC areas he would almost certainly still be alive today. As it was he did ignore the advise, continued to go to work as normal in a GC area in order to support his family despite the risk because he was non politcal and just wanted to get on with his life despite the intercommunal conflict. He was taken from his place of work in broad daylight by armed ethnic milita thugs, murdered and his body dumped in a well.

Erol there are many more TCs in the same position. TMT did a good job protecting TCs but were also guilty of going to the fields and killing innocent GC for revenge on the orders of Denktash.
Both sides are as guitly as each other. Both sides did wrong.
All we can hope for is all the missing is found and a given a decent burial with their families finally finding peace and closure.

[erolz3]

Both sides did wrong.

I quite agree and have always accepted this reality. What I can not stomach is Oracles bald face lies where she claims that TC that defied TMT / TC leaderships advice / orders to stay in the enclaves had more to fear from TMT than GC armed ethnic milita thugs. This is just a disgusting distortion of the truth, though that is nothing new from Oracle.

All we can hope for is all the missing is found and a given a decent burial with their families finally finding peace and closure.

Again I can only agree. My uncles body was finally located and identifed some 40+ years after his murder and was able to finaly be laid to rest with dignity and provide some closure for my family. May all those with loved ones that have gone 'missing' recive this small comfort.

[YFred]

Both sides did wrong.

I quite agree and have always accepted this reality. What I can not stomach is Oracles bald face lies where she claims that TC that defied TMT / TC leaderships advice / orders to stay in the enclaves had more to fear from TMT than GC armed ethnic milita thugs. This is just a disgusting distortion of the truth, though that is nothing new from Oracle.

All we can hope for is all the missing is found and a given a decent burial with their families finally finding peace and closure.

Again I can only agree. My uncles body was finally located and identifed some 40+ years after his murder and was able to finaly be laid to rest with dignity and provide some closure for my family. May all those with loved ones that have gone 'missing' recive this small comfort.

Do not take any notice of what the demented princess of darkness posts. She can't help herself suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder. It is a medical condition I believe, which cannot be cured and will lead to full madness sooner or later.
Actually she hates being ignored, so if you ignore her she gets very insulted. I just don’t like upsetting her which is why I attack her, she actually loves it really, or so I am told.

[Oracle]

(Not excusing the killing if it was politically motivated, but as B25 pointed out, the TCs who remained outside the enclaves were in more danger from the TMT than from GCs, as UN records confirm).

Yet more lies Oracle.

Yes TMT did kill TC, though far less than EOKA and its subsequent incarnations killed GC, but the simple and plain fact is that for ordinary TC going about their daily lives in this period the biggest threat to their saftey were the GC armed ethnic militas operating at will and in some case direct from and out of the Interior Ministers office. These groups killed more ordinary innocent TC than TMT ever did and by orders of magnitude.

Orders of magnitude? Perhaps you can provide some evidence ...

As for what I based my statement upon (inter alia):

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an American with no Cypriot or Greek ancestry, I understand how Cyprus' complex and, to most Americans, obscure past can make many easy prey to the disinformation fed our press by the Turkish government.

A common propaganda bite used by the Turkish state to legitimize its 1974 invasion of Cyprus is that "The Greek Cypriots then unleashed a campaign of extermination and eviction that killed or wounded thousands and drove a frightening percentage of Turkish Cypriots into besieged enclaves.." (Insight Magazine, "Fences Might Be the Right Thing for Multiethnic Nation of Cyprus", Ahmet Erdengiz, Feb. 7).

This claim has been refuted by findings of impartial sources such as the UN Secretary General's report No. S/5950, para. 142 which confirms that as a result of the brief but turbulent period of hostilities between Greek and Turkish-Cypriot extremists from December 21, 1963 to June 8, 1964, a total of 43 Greek Cypriots and 232 Turkish Cypriots are missing and presumed dead. Clearly, this was no "campaign of extermination".

Moreover, these deaths were a direct result of Britain's documented policy of arming Turkish separatists and encouraging Greco-Turkish conflict to facilitate its control over Cyprus.

While extremists of both communities are to blame for intercommunal violence, fueled by British attempts to prevent this overwhelmingly Greek island-nation from achieving its self-determination, history is clear that Turkish extremists initiated the cycle of violence that claimed victims on both sides.

In June of 1958, a bomb explosion outside the information office of the Turkish Consulate-- later shown to have been planted by Turkish extremists (the "TMT")--set off the first intercommunal clashes on Cyprus. As noted by British author Christopher Hitchens in his highly acclaimed work on Cyprus, Hostage to History, the self-proclaimed president of Cyprus' occupation regime, Rauf Denktash, admitted in a 1984 interview that it was a Turkish Cypriot friend who planted the bomb. As a result, "Turkish Cypriots promptly burned out a neighboring district of Greek shops and homes, in what was to be the first Greek-Turkish physical confrontation on the island. A curfew was imposed, and Greek guerrillas [were] blamed [by British authorities] for the bomb as they were for everything else."

Next the British released from jail eight Greek Cypriot EOKA fighters, forcing them to walk through the Turkish village of Guenyeli, where they were quickly set upon and murdered. Thus began two months of violence by extremists on both sides, killing 56 Greeks and 53 Turks. Tellingly, the British arrested 2,000 Greeks, but only 60 Turks.

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority. In a single week over 600 families, two-thirds of them Greek, left their homes, and many Turks who left Greek areas did so under intense pressure from Turkish separatists.

Turkish Cypriots who favored compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence. Turks caught smoking Greek cigarettes or visiting Greek shops were beaten, and Turkish gangs forced some Turkish Cypriots to resign from Greek Cypriot trade unions. In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT. Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia. "Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created. However, this so-called `first phase' of the invasion of Cyprus by Turkey only partly succeeded, since well over half of its brethren refused to obey instructions to abandon their homes for the predetermined enclaves" (The Making of Modern Cyprus, Panteli). On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have about a dozen regular TC posters. At least two have openly admitted having direct dealings with the TMT and hoarding weapons during this period.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

9. The Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1965, described the policy of the Turkish Cypriot leaders in this way: "The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots" (Report S/6426 10.6.65).



http://www.humanrights.coe.int/minoriti ... prus/B.htm

[Acikgoz]

Wow, what an unbiased source. Matthew J. Stowell is an Associate with the American Hellenic Media Project, a non-profit think-tank created to address bias in the media and encourage independent, ethical and responsible journalism.
This think tank is created to address bias, ha - any person familiar with Cyprus would laugh at how ridiculous this piece is. Just think, all that material and the following is the only mention regarding EOKA - "British released from jail eight Greek Cypriot EOKA fighters, forcing them to walk through the Turkish village of Guenyeli, where they were quickly set upon and murdered." Perhaps everyone else lied about the violence spread by the various EOKA factions and you've uncovered the true fountain of knowledge.

Psychopathy: is a personality disorder characterized by an abnormal lack of empathy combined with strongly amoral conduct, masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal. Completely free of internal restraints, with no pangs of conscience.

Oracle in a nutshell.

I am serious, not trying to score points, but a real value judgement as I see the direction of each of your posts.

[erolz3]

Orders of magnitude? Perhaps you can provide some evidence ...

The cases of where politcaly active TC who opposed the views of TMT were killed number 3, the three refered to in you biased report you quote. The number of non politcal innocent TC going about their everyday lives murderd by GC extermist thugs is in the region of 350 in this period. That is two orders of magnitude more TC killed by GC than killed by TMT.

As for what I based my statement upon (inter alia):

You source is not a credible unbaised one, but even it does not support your thesis that TC feared TMT and being killed by TMT more than they feared GC extermists and their amred milita thugs and being killed by GC.

Only TC who publicaly opposed TMT had anything to fear from TMT because of their opposition to TMT. All and any TC had reason to fear GC violence against them and for no other reason than they were TC. TMT killed 3 TC in this period, GC killed approx 350.

That is the simple truth, and from these facts you distort and claim TC feared and had more to fear from TMT than GC. It nonsense and lies. Unsupported by your biased report and unsupportable by any evidence because it just is not true.

[repulsewarrior]

you know guys, in living memory still, there are Cypriots who remember a time before enclaves. The polar hatred we are discussing is in relative terms quite new, and i think a remnant of the Cold War. isolated, as mostly rural dwellers we sustained ourselves living communally, and as cooperators.

i'll add that many in my family are missing because they stayed, but in these cases we know they were taken by Turkish Authorities, never to be seen again. what of our neighbours, across the fence and houses across the way, even when the isloation from each other was complete ways were found to communicate. the bonds that our families have established "Turkish" and "Greek" have not failed.

as for enclaves, however they were formed, they galvanised a Turkish Cypriot identity.

my views on enclaves are simple and futuristic; it is an issue of self-sustainability, and it allows for the return of people as they left, as communities.

[denizaksulu]

(Not excusing the killing if it was politically motivated, but as B25 pointed out, the TCs who remained outside the enclaves were in more danger from the TMT than from GCs, as UN records confirm).

Yet more lies Oracle.

Yes TMT did kill TC, though far less than EOKA and its subsequent incarnations killed GC, but the simple and plain fact is that for ordinary TC going about their daily lives in this period the biggest threat to their saftey were the GC armed ethnic militas operating at will and in some case direct from and out of the Interior Ministers office. These groups killed more ordinary innocent TC than TMT ever did and by orders of magnitude.

I am still waiting for Oracles claim re: an UN report to the effect that TMT killed more TCs etc. I think she is still searching hard.

I am sorry for your loss Erolz. There were many more like that. I remember the UN helicopters bringing in those murdered villagers almost on a daily basis in 1964. These gangs of murderers were let loose on the TC populace without mercy, most likely supported by Yorgadjis.