Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

Let's look at this thing from the viewpoint of a Mr Takis Demopoulos, the first named in the ECHR scabby pilot case who was run out of Morphou at gunpoint by the Turkish Army in '74 leaving behind seventeen plots of land.

Mr Demopoulos lodged his complaint with the ECHR back in 1999, and a few days ago in 2010, the blessed ECHR, having taken eleven blooming years (!!!!) tells him that it can't be bothered to consider his claim against Turkey in any detail and to come to a judgment but after the eleven years the ECHR has been procrastinating to refer the matter to a scummy body, controlled by the Occupying Power!!!!

Eleven Bleeding Years, not to reach a judgment, but to decide to dismiss Mr D's case without even looking at it.

Eleven Years!!!!
This is the wiki entry on Article 6 of the HR Convention, the Convention the ECHR is supposed to enforce on behalf of and for the benefit of us all.....

Article 6 - Fair Trial
Main article: Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights
Article 6 provides a detailed right to a fair trial, including the right to a public hearing before an independent and impartial tribunal within reasonable time, the presumption of innocence, and other minimum rights for those charged with a criminal offence (adequate time and facilities to prepare their defence, access to legal representation, right to examine witnesses against them or have them examined, right to the free assistance of an interpreter).
The majority of Convention violations that the Court finds today are excessive delays, in violation of the "reasonable time" requirement, in civil and criminal proceedings before national courts, mostly in Italy and France. Under the "independent tribunal" requirement, the Court has ruled that military judges in Turkish state security courts are incompatible with Article 6. Turkey now adopted a law abolishing these courts in compliance with the Article.

Eleven blooming years!!! Is that a "reasonable time"???? The bleeding ECHR is condemned by its own requirements to offer justice and enforce remedies "within a reasonable time"..... and Mr Demopoulos isn't alone in waiting for more than a decade for the ECHR to get off its bum and decide things within a reasonable time. How many, many years did the Loizidou and other families have to wait for the ECHR justice.

The other expectation of Article 6 is the right to a fair trial or hearing before an "independent tribunal" . Now who in their right mind, this side of Hell freezing over, would expect Turkey's Scummy Craperty Tnucition to be an "independent tribunal" ????? ...and yet the ECHR tells Mr Demopoulos to go and face same people who forced him off his land at gunpoint back in '74, with the threats of death, torture, rapes and general mistreatment, that we all know were widespread, to judge his case..... and then the ECHR tells Mr D and his family that if they ain't happy with the decision of Tnucland's Scamission to appeal to the Tnucland "appeal" "court" !!!!!!!......Insult on Insult has become the ECHR way in its treatment of Mr Demopoulos. Are these the ways to protect Mr D's Human Rights????

What is the ECHR telling the rest of us in matters outside CyProb... in simple language if your rights are violated, we'll keep you waiting for over a decade, keeping alive our expectation of having our rights respected, only for the ECHR to tell us to go and sort it out with the Murderers and Rapists of this world!!!

So the ECHR fails and it fails miserably and by its own worthy aspirations both on the length of time that it has kept Mr Demopoulos waiting and also on the blatant and clear inadequacy of its remedy.

Then and if the above weren't enough the ECHR holds Mr Demopoulos responsible for this ......

(and this is from the ECHR "judgment")......

9. On 24 April 2004, the final version of the Annan Plan was presented to the Greek and Turkish Cypriots for separate referenda. Under the terms of the Annan Plan, the United Cyprus Republic would be established if both sides agreed and voted yes in their respective referenda. There were several controversies in the text, however, such as issues of property and freedom of movement, which led to pessimism about the likelihood of the Annan Plan successfully passing. However, it became apparent that the Turkish-Cypriots would vote yes on 24 April 2004, making a United Cyprus Republic possible. The Annan plan failed to pass, however, because even though 65 % of Turkish Cypriots accepted the settlement plan, 76 % of Greek Cypriots rejected it.
10. The Annan Plan had provided for the property rights of Greek Cypriots to be balanced against the rights of those now living in the homes or using the land, some of them Turkish-Cypriot refugees from the south of the island, who had lost homes of their own, but many others of them Turkish settlers. The exact numbers of Turkish settlers was disputed; the Cyprus Ministry of Foreign Affairs had claimed it was over 100,000. The Plan capped the number of settlers who could be given citizenship of Cyprus at 45,000.
11. Article 10 of the Annan Plan contained a detailed and complex treatment of property claims. First, in areas subject to territorial adjustment, properties would be restored to their former dispossessed owners. In areas not subject to territorial adjustment, the following regime was envisaged. Dispossessed owners (as well as institutions), who opted for compensation would receive full and effective compensation for their property on the basis of value at the time of dispossession adjusted to reflect appreciation of property values in comparable locations. Compensation would be paid in the form of guaranteed bonds and appreciation certificates.

Mr Demopoulos is being punished, yep personally punished, punished as some kind of sacrificial lamb, being effectively held personally responsible for the result of the fair and democratic defeat of the Anon Scam by the good people of the Republic a few years ago.

An Anon Scam that in its final paragraph says very, very clearly that the Plan would be NULL and VOID in whole or in any of its parts if defeated in one or both refs.

NULL AND VOID?? Well the ECHR doesn't think it was NULL AND VOID, and quite happy to run roughshod over the democratic will of the CY People in a Free Referendum ..... and to hold Mr Demopoulos responsible and to exert a Collective Punishment from a great many others.

[CopperLine]

My response to the ECHR ruling.

The EU is expected to accede to the ECHR http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/get ... anguage=EN
I’m of the opinion that the Court has ignored its own Convention by making this judgment. This is a political decision not a judical one.

According to Wikipedia (not the best source but there must be an element of truth here) “In 1999 the Court (ECHR) had a backlog of 60,000 cases, growing to about 100,000 cases in 2007.[3][4] In early 2010 the court had a backlog of over 120,000 cases and a multi-year waiting list.[5] [6] [7] About 1 out of every 20 cases submitted to the court is considered admissible.[8] In 2007 the court issued 1,503 verdicts. At the current rate of proceedings, it would take 46 years for the backlog to clear”
This backlog alone would seem a good enough reason for the EU not to aceede and the recent injustice served on GCs can only add another. The EU should ask the Grand Chamber to re-consider this verdict.

I intend to contact my MEPs http://www.europarl.org.uk/section/your-meps/your-meps# and complain in the strongest possible terms about the hypocrisy of the ECHR.
I also intend to make an appointment with my UK MP http://www.parliament.uk/about/contacting/mp.cfm at his local surgery an ask him for help and guidance to reverse this injustice.

There are a couple of other bodies that may be prepared to condemn the ECHR’s judgment and put pressure on it to amend this decision: - http://www.hrw.org/ and http://www.amnesty.org.uk/index.asp

Jerry the EU cannot ask the Grand Chamber to 're-consider'. The complainants are the only ones who can 'appeal' to the Grand Chamber.

I genuinely don't understand the problem that some posters have here : you rightly demand that courts, including the ECHR, are independent of political or executive interference and yet on this case people are saying the EU (a non-judicial, explicitly political body) or the government of Cyprus, or a local MP, or some other executive or legsilature should prevent, frustrate or alter the ECHR decision. It is exactly that kind of action when conducted by Turkey that is rightly condemned.

The workload and backlog of the ECHR is indeed terrible. Jerry, when you speak to your MP, encourage her/him to lobby for the budget and resources of the ECHR to be increased massively (of course that budget comes out of national taxation)

[Tim Drayton]

I have a question can the ECHR ruling be challenged and how?because i believe and everyone pretty much does as well(including many turks)that this was a ruling taken to force a faster resolution to the cyprus problem as well to enchance Talats election campain.THe ruling contridicts one of the eu's four basic freedoms of enjoying and owning ones property.

Probably after Talat is re-elected, which I already predicted that he will be after Erdogan started sending "love" messages to the GCs with his recent statements. This will all help in getting Talat re-elected. This must all be Eroglu's worse nightmare at what has happened in the last week or so.!

I agree with your prediction. If you follow Afrika's analysis of events, this newspaper believes that a number of recent events point to Ankara shifting its support firmly in favour of Talat. This ECHR ruling is all grist for Talat's mill - it must be borne in mind that the IPC was the child of Talat's party and was strongly opposed by the partitionist UBP, and also that Turkey had to take the decisive move of consenting that the IPC constitutes a domestic remedy offered by Turkey, which is tantamount to denying the existence of the TRNC. Now that Ertuğruloğlu has announced his candidacy, the right wing vote will be divided. I do not think that any of these are chance events. As Afrika notes, all of the candidates and potential candidates have attended meetings in Ankara in recent weeks. My belief is that, following the recent wave of arrests in Turkey in connection with the 'Sledgehammer' alleged coup attempt, the AKP has strengthened its hand and wants to go for a solution with Talat as negotiator. I think this bodes well.

[CopperLine]

I have a question can the ECHR ruling be challenged and how?because i believe and everyone pretty much does as well(including many turks)that this was a ruling taken to force a faster resolution to the cyprus problem as well to enchance Talats election campain.THe ruling contridicts one of the eu's four basic freedoms of enjoying and owning ones property.

Probably after Talat is re-elected, which I already predicted that he will be after Erdogan started sending "love" messages to the GCs with his recent statements. This will all help in getting Talat re-elected. This must all be Eroglu's worse nightmare at what has happened in the last week or so.!

I agree with your prediction. If you follow Afrika's analysis of events, this newspaper believes that a number of recent events point to Ankara shifting its support firmly in favour of Talat. This ECHR ruling is all grist for Talat's mill - it must be borne in mind that the IPC was the child of Talat's party and was strongly opposed by the partitionist UBP, and also that Turkey had to take the decisive move of consenting that the IPC constitutes a domestic remedy offered by Turkey, which is tantamount to denying the existence of the TRNC. Now that Ertuğruloğlu has announced his candidacy, the right wing vote will be divided. I do not think that any of these are chance events. As Afrika notes, all of the candidates and potential candidates have attended meetings in Ankara in recent weeks. My belief is that, following the recent wave of arrests in Turkey in connection with the 'Sledgehammer' alleged coup attempt, the AKP has strengthened its hand and wants to go for a solution with Talat as negotiator. I think this bodes well.

I agree with your analysis Tim. The only further clarification I would add (for this thread) is that just because the ECHR judgment seems to some to be more sympathetic to TCs does not mean that it is the consequence of a politically manipulated Court.

[DT.]

I have a question can the ECHR ruling be challenged and how?because i believe and everyone pretty much does as well(including many turks)that this was a ruling taken to force a faster resolution to the cyprus problem as well to enchance Talats election campain.THe ruling contridicts one of the eu's four basic freedoms of enjoying and owning ones property.

Probably after Talat is re-elected, which I already predicted that he will be after Erdogan started sending "love" messages to the GCs with his recent statements. This will all help in getting Talat re-elected. This must all be Eroglu's worse nightmare at what has happened in the last week or so.!

I agree with your prediction. If you follow Afrika's analysis of events, this newspaper believes that a number of recent events point to Ankara shifting its support firmly in favour of Talat. This ECHR ruling is all grist for Talat's mill - it must be borne in mind that the IPC was the child of Talat's party and was strongly opposed by the partitionist UBP, and also that Turkey had to take the decisive move of consenting that the IPC constitutes a domestic remedy offered by Turkey, which is tantamount to denying the existence of the TRNC. Now that Ertuğruloğlu has announced his candidacy, the right wing vote will be divided. I do not think that any of these are chance events. As Afrika notes, all of the candidates and potential candidates have attended meetings in Ankara in recent weeks. My belief is that, following the recent wave of arrests in Turkey in connection with the 'Sledgehammer' alleged coup attempt, the AKP has strengthened its hand and wants to go for a solution with Talat as negotiator. I think this bodes well.

I agree with your analysis Tim. The only further clarification I would add (for this thread) is that just because the ECHR judgment seems to some to be more sympathetic to TCs does not mean that it is the consequence of a politically manipulated Court.

The only reason anyone accussed it of being politically motivated is because Gul boasted about how he affected that decision.

[Malapapa]

I have a question can the ECHR ruling be challenged and how?because i believe and everyone pretty much does as well(including many turks)that this was a ruling taken to force a faster resolution to the cyprus problem as well to enchance Talats election campain.THe ruling contridicts one of the eu's four basic freedoms of enjoying and owning ones property.

Probably after Talat is re-elected, which I already predicted that he will be after Erdogan started sending "love" messages to the GCs with his recent statements. This will all help in getting Talat re-elected. This must all be Eroglu's worse nightmare at what has happened in the last week or so.!

I agree with your prediction. If you follow Afrika's analysis of events, this newspaper believes that a number of recent events point to Ankara shifting its support firmly in favour of Talat. This ECHR ruling is all grist for Talat's mill - it must be borne in mind that the IPC was the child of Talat's party and was strongly opposed by the partitionist UBP, and also that Turkey had to take the decisive move of consenting that the IPC constitutes a domestic remedy offered by Turkey, which is tantamount to denying the existence of the TRNC. Now that Ertuğruloğlu has announced his candidacy, the right wing vote will be divided. I do not think that any of these are chance events. As Afrika notes, all of the candidates and potential candidates have attended meetings in Ankara in recent weeks. My belief is that, following the recent wave of arrests in Turkey in connection with the 'Sledgehammer' alleged coup attempt, the AKP has strengthened its hand and wants to go for a solution with Talat as negotiator. I think this bodes well.

I agree with your analysis Tim. The only further clarification I would add (for this thread) is that just because the ECHR judgment seems to some to be more sympathetic to TCs does not mean that it is the consequence of a politically manipulated Court.

The only reason anyone accussed it of being politically motivated is because Gul boasted about how he affected that decision.

A political leader actually boasting about how he has influenced the judiciary to make their decisions? What a complete idiot...

[vaughanwilliams]

When its a Greek judge its not bribery what hypocrites you GCs really are.

The matter of the Greek judge and the claim of apparent bias was looked at, was investigated, in a transparent and argued way by the GB Appeal Court.

The matter of Turkish bribes (if any) or Turkish influence (if any) in this ECHR ruling won't be open to the same kind of investigation will it?

If you can't see the difference between the two cases you really are more of a one-lined, ask questions but never answer any, fool than we gave you credit for so if you have , as usual, nothing to add to debate, clear off!

Vassilios Skouris, president of the ECJ, was decorated by the late Greek Cypriot leader Tassos Papadopoulos with the Grand Collar of the Order of Makarios III of the Republic of Cyprus for his “sincere and strong feelings for Cyprus and its people.” The Grand Collar of the Order of Makarios III is the highest honor awarded in the southern part of Cyprus, given to individuals who have made a substantial contribution to the welfare of the Cypriot people.
Would you care to hazard a guess what that "substantial contribution" was?

[Malapapa]

When its a Greek judge its not bribery what hypocrites you GCs really are.

The matter of the Greek judge and the claim of apparent bias was looked at, was investigated, in a transparent and argued way by the GB Appeal Court.

The matter of Turkish bribes (if any) or Turkish influence (if any) in this ECHR ruling won't be open to the same kind of investigation will it?

If you can't see the difference between the two cases you really are more of a one-lined, ask questions but never answer any, fool than we gave you credit for so if you have , as usual, nothing to add to debate, clear off!

Vassilios Skouris, president of the ECJ, was decorated by the late Greek Cypriot leader Tassos Papadopoulos with the Grand Collar of the Order of Makarios III of the Republic of Cyprus for his “sincere and strong feelings for Cyprus and its people.” The Grand Collar of the Order of Makarios III is the highest honor awarded in the southern part of Cyprus, given to individuals who have made a substantial contribution to the welfare of the Cypriot people.
Would you care to hazard a guess what that "substantial contribution" was?

Are TCs not part of Cyprus's people?

[vaughanwilliams]

When its a Greek judge its not bribery what hypocrites you GCs really are.

The matter of the Greek judge and the claim of apparent bias was looked at, was investigated, in a transparent and argued way by the GB Appeal Court.

The matter of Turkish bribes (if any) or Turkish influence (if any) in this ECHR ruling won't be open to the same kind of investigation will it?

If you can't see the difference between the two cases you really are more of a one-lined, ask questions but never answer any, fool than we gave you credit for so if you have , as usual, nothing to add to debate, clear off!

Vassilios Skouris, president of the ECJ, was decorated by the late Greek Cypriot leader Tassos Papadopoulos with the Grand Collar of the Order of Makarios III of the Republic of Cyprus for his “sincere and strong feelings for Cyprus and its people.” The Grand Collar of the Order of Makarios III is the highest honor awarded in the southern part of Cyprus, given to individuals who have made a substantial contribution to the welfare of the Cypriot people.
Would you care to hazard a guess what that "substantial contribution" was?

Are TCs not part of Cyprus's people?

They are, but I still want to know what that "substantial contribution" was.

[DTA]

When its a Greek judge its not bribery what hypocrites you GCs really are.

The matter of the Greek judge and the claim of apparent bias was looked at, was investigated, in a transparent and argued way by the GB Appeal Court.

The matter of Turkish bribes (if any) or Turkish influence (if any) in this ECHR ruling won't be open to the same kind of investigation will it?

If you can't see the difference between the two cases you really are more of a one-lined, ask questions but never answer any, fool than we gave you credit for so if you have , as usual, nothing to add to debate, clear off!

Vassilios Skouris, president of the ECJ, was decorated by the late Greek Cypriot leader Tassos Papadopoulos with the Grand Collar of the Order of Makarios III of the Republic of Cyprus for his “sincere and strong feelings for Cyprus and its people.” The Grand Collar of the Order of Makarios III is the highest honor awarded in the southern part of Cyprus, given to individuals who have made a substantial contribution to the welfare of the Cypriot people.
Would you care to hazard a guess what that "substantial contribution" was?

Are TCs not part of Cyprus's people?

how many TC would give out Makarios awards???