Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Kifeas thankyou for your attempt at constructive criticism about my perspective of things, as far as I can gather you have become uncomfortable with the fact that there are other TCs that think like me, please believe me we are many in numbers and increasing. This increase is very much related with GC attitude towards us and a solution, so you can attribute some of the blame or praise upon yourself however you wish to view it.

Can you just give me a few examples of this GC attitude towards the TCs, which according to you is increasing the TC mistrust? And please to not give me the same argument again regarding Papadopoullos and his support by the GCs, because it is a non-acceptable argument for many reasons.

As for what have I done towards building trust firstly I constantly bring to light that it is our biggest problem and that if we can overcome this issue others will be much easier to solve.

That is what I said! You just shout, “fire,” “fire,” “fire,” all the time! What else?

I suggest you re-read some of my post to see the unerlying constructive message I have from time to time tried to convey but only a few members have really pick up on this namely Alex and Cannedmoose, your blinkered vision of me and many TCs leads me to believe that whatever contribution I attempt to make will in your eyes be evlauated negatively.

Just tell me what is this constructive message you are trying to convey? In a few sentences, No more! I can assure you if it makes the slightest sense to me, I will acknowledge it and thank you for it! I do not wear blinkers!

I suggest you do a little soul searching and stop testing peoples intelligence, accepting each individual as they are and concentrate on your own outlook towards us and a possible solution be it unification or recognized partition.

I am not in the business of testing anyone’s intelligence and even if I said so, it was within the context of a light and humours discussion that I had with detailer. I agree that at times, when the level and style of the debates or conversations allows it, I may make jokes *and /or express my views in a sarcastic way. In most cases I even express self-sarcasm in order to make the discussion more “palatable.” I have absolutely no problem accepting each individual as they are. I maintain though the right to reply to postings in an analogous way in which they were initiated. And most of your postings contain a great deal of cynicism, thus you are getting it back in equal dose from me. If you were a child, I could possibly use the same method that Alexandros is quite often using. But you are not!

* Corrected upon Viewpoint's advice! Thank you viewpoint and if you see any more typing errors, please correct me on those too!

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas

Can you just give me a few examples of this GC attitude towards the TCs, which according to you is increasing the TC mistrust? And please to not give me the same argument again regarding Papadopoullos and his support by the GCs, because it is a non-acceptable argument for many reasons.

Blocking of direct trade
Constant approach of placing blame
Keeping guns in your homes
Twisting of arguements to suit your aims
Majority rule attitude
TCs are thieves
Materialistic outlook
Electing an ex Eoka leader
Rejecting the Annan plan
Bring cases against British settlers
Sueing TCs
Constant objections to our participation in anything official
Always belittilng the TRNC
Constantly critisizing our relations with Turkey
Not allowing TC to vote in the south
Claiming you represent us

Just tell me what is this constructive message you are trying to convey? In a few sentences, No more! I can assure you if it makes the slightest sense to me, I will acknowledge it and thank you for it! I do not wear blinkers!

You should really go back and read my posts with regards to how we could take measures to build trust eg both sides should return to the table and negotiate in good faith, you should allow direct trade for Maras allowing us the opportunity to rebuid Maras together, we should rebuild Omorfo so that the current homes are ready to hand back and many other things, you tend to absorb all the negatives and not take on board all the positive things I do say from time to time.

am not in the business of testing anyone’s intelligence and even if I said so, it was within the context of a light and humours discussion that I had with detailer. I agree that at times, when the level and style of the debates or conversations allows it, I may make jocks and /or express my views in a sarcastic way. In most cases I even express self-sarcasm in order to make the discussion more “palatable.” I have absolutely no problem accepting each individual as they are. I maintain though the right to reply to postings in an analogous way in which they were initiated

Firstly its Jokes not Jocks which has another meaning and your above statement can also be taken as an attempt as twisting your own statements to make them seem like you are joking or being scarcastic which I must say you are not very good at imo.

If you were a child, I could possibly use the same method that Alexandros is quite often using. But you are not!

are you insulting my intelligence or Alexs ability to understand the underlying message in certain posts, or his handling and response to many members of this forum childish and to simple for your high calibre intelligence?? could you kindly clarify although I am 99% sure the insult is purely aimed at me.

[Bananiot]

Viewpoint wrote

This attitude is increasingly gaining momentum in the north and if left to fester will leave GCs negotiating with settlers rather than TCs, what do GC forum members think about this and are they concerned that time is working against them?? or is it just better to ignore it and it will go away attitude is more appropriate?

The above my friend is very worrying. I have seen this attitude gaining ground among the TC's from day one after the referendum. The ordinary, decent TC's have felt that they are not wanted by us. Of course, many people in the GC community will be pleased by this attitude because this has been their aim, to alienate the two communities so that there will be no solution. Thus, this is sweet music in the ears of people like Koulias and Aggelides (all the president's men in fact) who are openly asking for a new plan, knowing that this will bring partition one step closer to our door. In fact, when we decent Cypriots cry our hearts out that the present stalemate is cementing partition, these people, along with their counterparts in the TC community, are riding high with joy, seeing that the purity of the two communities will be preserved for many more eons.

[Piratis]

TCs voted "yes" and GCs voted "no" to partition. If the plan was for unification then GCs would have voted "yes" and TCs would have voted "no".

Sure TCs are disappointed that we didn't accept partition. But is this new? Partition (and legalizing it) is what they are trying for 45 years already. We are disappointed too that they do not accept the return to legality and they insist on violating our human rights. I don't see them to care much about this, actually they want to legalize the violation of our human rights instead!

[Kifeas]

Kifeas

Can you just give me a few examples of this GC attitude towards the TCs, which according to you is increasing the TC mistrust? And please to not give me the same argument again regarding Papadopoullos and his support by the GCs, because it is a non-acceptable argument for many reasons.

Blocking of direct trade

We gave you the option for trade with the EU through the Green line regulation. You did not bother to even look at it, set aside to make any use of it! Direct trade is just a political goal for your side. You want to exploit the circumstances of the A-plan rejection, in order to strike o political goal against us. A purely opportunistic attitude! Direct trade equates to a de facto recognition of a separate entity in the north, which is detrimental to the foundation of our entire negotiating leverage for a solution. You had absolutely no recognition for 29 years and it took you that much to decide and get into the streets in order to push your leadership to work for a solution. We are 100% sure that if your community gets a partial or “de facto” recognition, it might take you just as long to come back again to the negotiating table in good faith. Because you do not care for a solution that will truly establish the rights and interests of both of our two communities, but only yours! Partition and recognition is the vast majority of your community’s prime objective and you never truly gave up from this, irrespective of the fact that you supported the A-plan because you and Turkey did not have another choice –in view of her negotiation starting date for accession into the EU.

Constant approach of placing blame

This is absurd! You do just the same against us!

Keeping guns in your homes.

We keep guns because you want the Turkish Army to be in Cyprus under the pre-text of us threatening your security. Your security “need” is divine and sacred but ours is not?

Twisting of arguements to suit your aims

Absurd!
So, in order for you to trust us, we must always say yes and agree with everything you say!

Majority rule attitude

Absurd! Only as a counter argument to your obsessive demand for absolute political equally!

TCs are thieves

The Turkish government, the Turkish Army and the portion of the TC leadership that support and protect the usurping and illegal trading of the GC properties in the north are the thieves! We never claimed that the ordinary TCs that were given a GC property in order to earn a living for their family - without selling this property to foreigners or developers, are thieves!

Materialistic outlook

Absurd!

Electing an ex Eoka leader

So what? You did not and do not have ex-TMT political leaders in your community?

Rejecting the Annan plan

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Bring cases against British settlers

And why does this affect the trust of the TC community towards us? We are only defending our properties, are human right to owe our properties like every other human being!

Sueing TCs

Only those that are engaged in this illegal trading of our properties and building inside in order to sell them to foreigners or anyone else! Again why does this affect the trust of the TC community towards us?

Constant objections to our participation in anything official

You can do so through the RoC, like the TC athletes did in the recent Med-games! Obvoisously what your asking is to allow you to participate in anything official, as "TRNC." Well, this is the core of our difference and the reason why the CY problem exists as a problem! Absurd again!

Always belittilng the TRNC

Are you up to maintaining the “TRNC” as your permanent representation? Why then you approved the A-plan, which foresaw the disappearance of the anyway non-recognised “TRNC,” if you care so much about it’s non-belittling! Don’t you do the same with the RoC and at the same time 95% of you have obtained it’s passports?

Constantly critisizing our relations with Turkey

We do not criticise your cultural, educational and all that sort of relationships, but only your complete political dependency and blind political obedience to them, which according to us, is one of the major factors for the non-solution for 31 years now.

Not allowing TC to vote in the south,

Which TCs? Those who choose to live in the north and simultaneously support and participate in the “TRNC” political system? Those in the south will be allowed from now on!

Claiming you represent us

And how does this affect your trust on us? It only obliges us to maintain some benefits for your community. As far as I know, the majority of your community, whenever it suits them, they choose to make use of these benefits without having any mistrust dilemmas.

Viewpoint! The list you constructed above, assuming you were serious in the issues you raised, proves only one thing about you. How little you know and understand the entire Cyprus problem!

In a nutshell, I would call everything you said, a bunch of crap! Only a bad solicitor would have put together such a bunch of sophistries in order to prove that the GCs are responsible for the hypothetical mistrust of the TC community towards them!

I am truly sorry! I will not try again to waste your time in this forum!

[Kifeas]

Thus, this is sweet music in the ears of people like Koulias and Aggelides (all the president's men in fact) who are openly asking for a new plan, knowing that this will bring partition one step closer to our door.

really? Is it so? Koullias and Aggelides are all the presidents's men? C'mon!

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas

I am truly sorry! I will not try again to waste your time in this forum

Thank you

Obviously anything I have stated does not register because your views are so rigid and archaic that you are a lost cause. I am glad to read your views as they reinforce my blief that unfication with a minset like yours will only push us towards another disaster and place all Cypriots at risk.

I will avoid responding to your posts and waste your time or endure your insults.

[cypezokyli]

[quote]
What in GCs view can be done by the south to turn the tide??? any suggestions??

i have to say the question struck me. even though there are a lot our politicians can do, i couldnt think of sth that i could do.
and thats always a problem.

at a personal level, well...
i could try to convince my environment that "we are loosing the tc" and we should do sth about it.
you could perhaps try, in case you would like also to turn the tide convince your environment that " give those gc a chance they r not that nasty afterall".

or
we could even do that publicly if you r interested.
me and you
we co-write, and co-sign a reply to that post saying:
1. it is time for both communities to accept that attrocities were commited by both sides. continuing overstating the attrocities only of the other side is not going to help to understand each other, and it creates even more anger and hate (as it appears in that cyprus mail article)

2. express our concern about this growing attitude of the tc, and that our politicians should start taking that seriously and try to do sth a.s.a.p. (especially the gc politicians if u want)

3. going abroad, leaving cyprus to turks and kurds, is also not helping. reactions of revenge will only take us backwards.

if u have any suggestions of what i could do i will be glad to hear them.

[MicAtCyp]

First of all I don't agree that the letter in Cyprus mail has much in common with your views VP.
Your views and hopes are for gradual recognition and partition that will provide you with a paradise to live in. The writters view is that all Tcs will abandon the place and their revenge will be that they will leave the settlers to "settle" the GCs. Similar revenge feelings like "we will let them deal with settlers then" exist among the Gcs too who say "Let them rot in their cage then". In my opinion these "revenge" emotions is because people are tired of waiting. Yet in my opinion 30 out of those 31 years of waiting are solely due to Denktash....

I am not a fortune teller and I cannot tell what will happen in the end. The Cyprob is clear.The GCs want their lands and homes,the Tcs want economic advance.Both sides have to start from this very basic. In the final solution the Tcs want an area where they will rule themselves whereas the Gcs aggree on that. So until the final solution comes I beleive the only way to move forward is Land Vs Economic advance. Digging the graves for the missing persons will never built trust, and will doubtfully move us an inch forward.

Regarding what the Tcs or the Gcs will vote in next referendum, may I remind everybody it will be on a Plan that both sides leaders will have agreed upon. So if there will be a future referendum- it will get 80% from both sides.

Concerning the matter of trust:The only way to build trust is start aggreeing even on some minor details, and both sides apply the aggreement to the letter.
If I were to propose one small agreement is the following:1)the Tc side stop asking for passports and stop issuing visas 2)The Gc side allow the TC taxis and buses to carry clients from the north to the RoC controlled areas.

These are my replies to your list:

Blocking of direct trade -blocking the return of Varoshia.Claiming Varoshia belongs by 90% to Evkaf.
Constant approach of placing blame -You too
Keeping guns in your homes -Keeping 40,000 Turkish Troops and 70 million Turks ready to attachk us
Twisting of arguements to suit your aims -Which arguments?
Majority rule attitude - A minority of 18% is equal with a majority of 82% thus wants 50-50
TCs are thieves -Those who say our properties are theirs are thieves.Those who sell our properties are thieves.
Materialistic outlook -sorry we are not mother Teresas. Neither are you.
Electing an ex Eoka leader -Keeping the founder of TMT your leader for 40 years!
Rejecting the Annan plan -Accepting it because it donated you our properties and legalising the results of the Invasion.
Bring cases against British settlers -You mean against receivers of our stolen properties?
Sueing TCs -Sueing specific 4-5 TC crooks.
Constant objections to our participation in anything official -Constant denial from you to even participate in the EU accession talks of Cyprus
Always belittilng the TRNC -You mean the pseudo state founded on our stolen properties? You are right on this
Constantly critisizing our relations with Turkey -For your own good.You yourself admitted they draw you from the ears all the time.
Not allowing TC to vote in the south -Wrong
Claiming you represent us-We claim nobody represents you legally other than RoC that you disrespect, and abandoned...

[MicAtCyp]

The ordinary, decent TC's have felt that they are not wanted by us.

For the first time I will agree with you on this one. In fact the TCs were so happy before the referendum that they were organising festivities and parties. When someone told them, look the GCs are not celebrating, there are no parties there, they started asking each other why the GCs aren’t celebrating?
After the referendum the TCs started spreading other false ideas they formed about the GCs:They don't even want us to return in RoC....

However I beleive all these were because the TCs did not really get to know us after the opening of the gates, nor did we.It was too early. I want to beleive we now know each other better.We know what the TCs want we know what they want.It now depends how much we are willing to satisfy each other.

NB. I personally got mad after the referendum when I saw that ONLY 65% of the TCs voted yes. The reason was because with such a favoring plan I would expect at least 80% from them.