Cyprus-Forum.com

[DTA]

Failing that I would want partition:

I would be willing to give up Morphou and Marash and the buffer zone to achieve this, all GC refugees who want to would have the right to return to their land in the TC state this would be staggerd though, and obviously have all the same rights as other TCS we would become part of the EU as well.

How bout you?

First of all, Turkey will not allow plain partition to form two separate states, but lets say they did, that would not mean that the TRNC as a separate country will be in the EU and
neither would Turkey. Why do you think that the RoC would first agree to a partition against it's will, then go ahead and allow the new TRNC and Turkey to become EU members. Surely there has to be a price paid for the new TRNC and Turkey for having achieved partition.?

Secondly, do you also accept, that all the TCs who are now all RoC and EU citizens will need to give up that citizenship. You will no longer be a EU citizen and that you would abdicate your rights as a citizen of the RoC and the EU.! You will also have no rights to the oil fields in the southern waters of the RoC.!

Are these condition acceptable to you in wanting a partition as a last resort.??

what you have stated there is a collection of factors that you believe is true in relation to partition, what I believe is true is the following:

gc in general (not all) do not want a BBF where they wil have to share power equally or in any large amount on a political level with tcs. all negociations accepted by the un have been working on this basis, given this as there only option in a final yes or no scenario by the un
they would rather keep control of 100% of the south then lose control of 100% of the island.

Therefore the basis to partition will be paved. But land given from the new trnc would be an incentive allow the new trnc in to the eu as part of the final partition agreement.

Factor 2:
turkey will never get in to the eu it is far to big will have far to much influence Borders some 'interesting' countries is too different is to Muslim in essense if you read focout (spelling) turkey is the quitatsential 'other' and the eu does not like 'other' however turkey has been applying for 50 years it has the potential to be a power house in the region, the eu can not just be seen as a Christian club etc etc so turkey needs to be appeased in some way and even France an Germany are talking of a special relationship and a new trnc with eu membership and strong links to turkey (obviously) could be the key to this special relationship, without actually giving turkey membership???

The above all obviouly conjecture but no more than your post.

[ace]

Can anyone tell me if the recent echr ruling has any effect on the 18 cases,dated 22/09/2009 posted on this site. Thanks

[Kikapu]

Failing that I would want partition:

I would be willing to give up Morphou and Marash and the buffer zone to achieve this, all GC refugees who want to would have the right to return to their land in the TC state this would be staggerd though, and obviously have all the same rights as other TCS we would become part of the EU as well.

How bout you?

First of all, Turkey will not allow plain partition to form two separate states, but lets say they did, that would not mean that the TRNC as a separate country will be in the EU and
neither would Turkey. Why do you think that the RoC would first agree to a partition against it's will, then go ahead and allow the new TRNC and Turkey to become EU members. Surely there has to be a price paid for the new TRNC and Turkey for having achieved partition.?

Secondly, do you also accept, that all the TCs who are now all RoC and EU citizens will need to give up that citizenship. You will no longer be a EU citizen and that you would abdicate your rights as a citizen of the RoC and the EU.! You will also have no rights to the oil fields in the southern waters of the RoC.!

Are these condition acceptable to you in wanting a partition as a last resort.??

what you have stated there is a collection of factors that you believe is true in relation to partition, what I believe is true is the following:

gc in general (not all) do not want a BBF where they wil have to share power equally or in any large amount on a political level with tcs. all negociations accepted by the un have been working on this basis, given this as there only option in a final yes or no scenario by the un
they would rather keep control of 100% of the south then lose control of 100% of the island.

Therefore the basis to partition will be paved. But land given from the new trnc would be an incentive allow the new trnc in to the eu as part of the final partition agreement.

Factor 2:
turkey will never get in to the eu it is far to big will have far to much influence Borders some 'interesting' countries is too different is to Muslim in essense if you read focout (spelling) turkey is the quitatsential 'other' and the eu does not like 'other' however turkey has been applying for 50 years it has the potential to be a power house in the region, the eu can not just be seen as a Christian club etc etc so turkey needs to be appeased in some way and even France an Germany are talking of a special relationship and a new trnc with eu membership and strong links to turkey (obviously) could be the key to this special relationship, without actually giving turkey membership???

The above all obviouly conjecture but no more than your post.

If I may venture a guess and think loud on what the GCs may say, is that, as far as the GCs would be concerned (and perhaps the rest of the EU also), there would be no difference between Turkey being in the EU or just the new TRNC, since Turkey will in effect have control over the new TRNC. Turkey will be able to bring as many Turks as they like through the new TRNC to make them into EU citizens and then gradually as EU citizens flood the RoC as well as the rest of the EU. Turkey will also use the new TRNC to influence EU decision makings, such as the new TRNC threatening to veto any new applicants to become a EU member unless they will allow Turkey in also. The new TRNC will be nothing but a "Trojan Horse" for Turkey, therefore neither the RoC or the EU will allow such a nightmare scenario to happen, and all this for what exactly, so that the RoC may get 7% of more land back so that they can risk losing everything with the flood of new Turkish EU citizens. I doubt it very much.!

The present status quo will suit them more the GCs will tell you, I believe. True Federation allows each state equal power in a True Democratic way. This is what the TCs will get if they give enough land back to become part of the south state where everyone would feel that whole of Cyprus still belongs to them. Democracy in a True Federation is not constant with specific powers allocated to different communities. Such allocated powers causes problems sooner or later. Let the 1960 RoC constitution be an example as to what happens when power is allocated to communities and not earned through democratic means. Such unearned powers not only will lead to corruption of major proportions, but also to civil unrests in times of political disagreements.!

[DTA]

It is not quite as black and white as the picture that you paint, freedom of movement between eu countries is differnt from freedom of residency/nationality or other benifits is it not? Also if they are not there already stipipulations can be put into place in terms of mass migration from non eu countries (turkey) to any eu countries The new trnc so the Trojan horse that you talk of is infact nothing more then your latest ploy to paint the tc ploy as desperate in order for us to except a solution that will see tc marginallised.

You do realise that rightly or wrongly ( I am making no judment) that the latest echr judgement has rubber stamped the bi communal part of Cyprus along existing borders excluding gc property not in use and maras? Your ideas of tc giving up huge ammounts of land in return for not full pArtnership equality is now dead what is the insentive? What's the point in us doing that?

[DTA]

Also the present status quo is not and have neve been a forever option.

If there is no solution then one day the new trnc would be recognised.

[Kikapu]

It is not quite as black and white as the picture that you paint, freedom of movement between eu countries is differnt from freedom of residency/nationality or other benifits is it not? Also if they are not there already stipipulations can be put into place in terms of mass migration from non eu countries (turkey) to any eu countries The new trnc so the Trojan horse that you talk of is infact nothing more then your latest ploy to paint the tc ploy as desperate in order for us to except a solution that will see tc marginallised.

You do realise that rightly or wrongly ( I am making no judment) that the latest echr judgement has rubber stamped the bi communal part of Cyprus along existing borders excluding gc property not in use and maras? Your ideas of tc giving up huge ammounts of land in return for not full pArtnership equality is now dead what is the insentive? What's the point in us doing that?

Look, I'm giving you the arguments against in what you want. Think of it as if we are playing a chess game where not only I'm paying attention to the move you have just made, but also the 2-3 move you have already devised in your mind that will follow if I make my move in the way you hope I would. Of course, if I can read your moves yet to be made, I'm going to counter them with my own play as well as device 2-3 moves in advance in my mind also. All I'm doing is telling you what your and my 2-3 moves are, can be, could be, might be, would be if one of us makes the mistake and falls into the others trap. That's all. I'm giving you an opinion as a open minded independent thinker and a Cypriot who believes Cyprus is best served Democratically by all it's citizens without one outsmarting or tricking the other in attempts to gain the upper hand. This is not how health societies function. Political ideology lines before ethnic political lines is what I believe. A lot of people here on the forum tend to believe more on ethnic lines than political ideology lines, and then they wonder why there is no unity yet.!

[Kikapu]

Also the present status quo is not and have neve been a forever option.

If there is no solution then one day the new trnc would be recognised.

If that were to happen, then for sure, neither the new TRNC nor Turkey will ever see the light of the EU as well as war always being an open ended possibility on the island from then on.! The new TRNC will be in the same economic status as Turkey, which is around $6,000 USD per capita per year as well as the extinction of the TCs as we knew them. We will become the almost extinct tribal people of the "Kikapu's, Kikapoo's, Kickapoo's" of North America. We too will have hiking trails named after us, the ones who one time were in Cyprus, since the north will become nothing but "Little Turkey" then on, so be careful what you wish for, just because you might end up getting it, which then you may not like it.!

[DTA]

Also the present status quo is not and have neve been a forever option.

If there is no solution then one day the new trnc would be recognised.

If that were to happen, then for sure, neither the new TRNC nor Turkey will ever see the light of the EU as well as war always being an open ended possibility on the island from then on.! The new TRNC will be in the same economic status as Turkey, which is around $6,000 per capita per year as well as the extinction of the TCs as we knew them. We will become the almost extinct tribal people of the "Kikapu's, Kikapoo's, Kickapoo's" of North America. We too will have hiking trails named after us, the ones who one time were in Cyprus, since the north will become nothing but "Little Turkey" then on, so be careful what you wish for, just because you might end up getting it, which then you may not like
it.!

for many tcs this will be better than living under gc rule.
As for you being a free thinker, well you better stRt backing that up with some balnce the because all I see is you attacking anything remotely positive to tc atonomy (and by this I mean real, and sustainable autonomy). Your badge of 'free thinking' that you wear so proudly is nothing more than illusion one that you may have even fooled yourself with, if I saw even a hint of balance and fairness to what you write here then maybe I could respect your free thinking claim but I don't so I can't.

Your chess analogy is fLAWED And used to deflect from the valid counter arguments that I presented you with.

As for war or the threat of war, the new trnc would be protected by turkey obviously, so war by the gc state on the tc state would be simply suiside.

As for the economic future well, by 2020 turkey is predicted to be the 12th biggest economy in the world and even if it plays out like you said (which I don't think it will because eu need to do something over turkeys membership and zmy idea of the new trnc would please turkey enough, give it enough influence but no where the amount of influence it would have as a full member thus keeping the power base of French and german coalition intact) it would not be too bad

[DT.]

Also the present status quo is not and have neve been a forever option.

If there is no solution then one day the new trnc would be recognised.

If that were to happen, then for sure, neither the new TRNC nor Turkey will ever see the light of the EU as well as war always being an open ended possibility on the island from then on.! The new TRNC will be in the same economic status as Turkey, which is around $6,000 per capita per year as well as the extinction of the TCs as we knew them. We will become the almost extinct tribal people of the "Kikapu's, Kikapoo's, Kickapoo's" of North America. We too will have hiking trails named after us, the ones who one time were in Cyprus, since the north will become nothing but "Little Turkey" then on, so be careful what you wish for, just because you might end up getting it, which then you may not like
it.!

for many tcs this will be better than living under gc rule.
As for you being a free thinker, well you better stRt backing that up with some balnce the because all I see is you attacking anything remotely positive to tc atonomy (and by this I mean real, and sustainable autonomy). Your badge of 'free thinking' that you wear so proudly is nothing more than illusion one that you may have even fooled yourself with, if I saw even a hint of balance and fairness to what you write here then maybe I could respect your free thinking claim but I don't so I can't.

Your chess analogy is fLAWED And used to deflect from the valid counter arguments that I presented you with.

As for war or the threat of war, the new trnc would be protected by turkey obviously, so war by the gc state on the tc state would be simply suiside.

As for the economic future well, by 2020 turkey is predicted to be the 12th biggest economy in the world and even if it plays out like you said (which I don't think it will because eu need to do something over turkeys membership and zmy idea of the new trnc would please turkey enough, give it enough influence but no where the amount of influence it would have as a full member thus keeping the power base of French and german coalition intact) it would not be too bad

In all these plans you still have the minor problem that you cannot have a recognised independent state on sovereign land of the Republic of Cyprus.

[DTA]

Also the present status quo is not and have neve been a forever option.

If there is no solution then one day the new trnc would be recognised.

If that were to happen, then for sure, neither the new TRNC nor Turkey will ever see the light of the EU as well as war always being an open ended possibility on the island from then on.! The new TRNC will be in the same economic status as Turkey, which is around $6,000 per capita per year as well as the extinction of the TCs as we knew them. We will become the almost extinct tribal people of the "Kikapu's, Kikapoo's, Kickapoo's" of North America. We too will have hiking trails named after us, the ones who one time were in Cyprus, since the north will become nothing but "Little Turkey" then on, so be careful what you wish for, just because you might end up getting it, which then you may not like
it.!

for many tcs this will be better than living under gc rule.
As for you being a free thinker, well you better stRt backing that up with some balnce the because all I see is you attacking anything remotely positive to tc atonomy (and by this I mean real, and sustainable autonomy). Your badge of 'free thinking' that you wear so proudly is nothing more than illusion one that you may have even fooled yourself with, if I saw even a hint of balance and fairness to what you write here then maybe I could respect your free thinking claim but I don't so I can't.

Your chess analogy is fLAWED And used to deflect from the valid counter arguments that I presented you with.

As for war or the threat of war, the new trnc would be protected by turkey obviously, so war by the gc state on the tc state would be simply suiside.

As for the economic future well, by 2020 turkey is predicted to be the 12th biggest economy in the world and even if it plays out like you said (which I don't think it will because eu need to do something over turkeys membership and zmy idea of the new trnc would please turkey enough, give it enough influence but no where the amount of influence it would have as a full member thus keeping the power base of French and german coalition intact) it would not be too bad