Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz3]

You have this idea that Cypriots are divided into "GCs" and "TCs". This division is one which you forced since Ottoman times and which you continue, again using force, to maintain today, for the sole reason of serving your own interests on the expense of every other Cypriot, not just GCs.

I am here, I am cypriot. I am not greek and I am not greek cypriot. In 1960 when Cyprus was emerging from colonial rule, we were here. We were Cypriot. We were not Greek. We were not GC.

We could have at the end of colonial rule in Cyprus built a state based on an idea of commonality as cypriots DESPITE ethnic differences. We did not, but I still dream of a time when we will.

Cypriots can by divided in a lot of categories, not just based on their language and religion, but also based on their political views, their gender, their class etc.

The very point at which 'one person one vote' ceases to be an effective MEANS of achiveing the objectives of democracy - that people have an effective voice in the decisions that rule thier lives - is when what defines how you vote is solely based on an UNCHANGABLE characteristic such as ethnicity, or gender.

Imagine a state with 52% males and 48% females where males wanted to pass a law that only males supported because they are male and not female, and that all females opposed because they were female and not male. To me to say that in each and every case like this males should always get their will and females never theirs , simply because there are more males is not only NOT democracy but it is the anthesis of it. For me in such a senario democracy in its true sense demands that the unit for such a decision has to be the two seperate gender groups and NOT the indivdual, exactly because how and why you support it or not is NOT a function of indivdual changable choice and concsience but is entirely defined by and dependant on gender.

Now the above is clearly and absurd eterme example, but I use such an absurd and extreme example because it it is on the edges that my point is most clearly highlighted.

The principal is that when what defines how and why you support something or not is NOT a matter of indivdual changable personal choice , but in fact an extension of an unchangable characteristic, like gender or ethnicity, then democracy in its meaning that people should have an effective voice in the decisions that shape their lives, actualy demands that the unit not be the indivdual but the group.

In the end of the day freedom for Cyprus means for Cypriots to be able to make democratic decisions. It doesn't mean that every single Cypriot should agree and it doesn't mean that every single group should agree.

In matters of indivdual choice , one indivdual one vote is the most effective means of achieving democracy.

In matters of 'communal' choice, that is where you support 'it' or oppose 'it' is based entirely on what community you are a part of then to me one community one vote is the most effective means of achieving democracy.

Similarly in matter of 'gender' choice, that is where you support 'it' ot oppose 'it' is mased entirely on what gender you are one gender one vote is the most effective means of achieving democracy.

Now I know you will refuse to accept this and claim that democracy MEANS one person one vote and that anything without one person one vote in undemocratic, though of course only WITHIN a nation state whilst outside of it in relations between nation states democracy means something different, ie one state one vote regardless of population size.

I know this a surely as I know that if for whatever reason GC had happend to only be 48% of the Cypriot population and TC 52% when we were emerging from colonial rule, your views would be very different.

As long as the action taken respects the human rights of all Cypriots, the agreement of each and every group of people is not required. If you can not respect democratic choices and you equate them with "imposing" just because you happen to disagree, then you obviously have no idea what democracy means, or rather you pretend you don't know what it means trying to force on us something undemocratic so you can continue violating our democratic rights and have gains on our expense.

I think I know very well what democracy means and that it is in fact you that seeks to pervert the meaning of democracy from 'people having an effective voice in the decisions that shape their lives' to 'one person one vote' , though of course only within nation states, between them it has a different meaning.

For me democracy - 'people having an effective voice in the decisions that shape their lives' does not mean that people must always get what they want but it does mean that they must have at least a chance to get what they want.

If on communal issues, ones where how you vote is entirely a function of if you are GC and TC the very reason why one person one vote becomes and ineffective MEANS of achiving democracy is because in such senarios TC have no chance of ever having a say in such decisions, ever.

You are the one who classifies yourself as a different kind of Cypriot. We are the exact same Cypriots we have been for 1000s of years, long before you came to our island. You came to our island, you didn't assimilate or integrate with the local population because being different and having privileges on our expense was better for you.

You are just saying the same old stuff again. If I come to cyprus and it becomes over centuries my homeland, unless I abandon my cutlural heritage and adpot yours, I am not 'cypriot' by choice. I refute this. I can be cypriot and without having to have abandoned my cultural background and adopted yours. I AM cypriot and I do NOT have the same cultural background as you, but cypriot I remain. Yet for you I am not cypriot and because I did not abandond my own different cultural heritage and adopt yours.

You can be as similar or as different as you want. That is your right. But insisting that your group of 18% should be equated with the 82% of the population IS the Cyprus problem. It is the same problem we had during Ottoman rule, and you want to maintain the same problem today.

I want a notion and reality of Cypriot that binds us togeather with commonality as cypriots DESPITE our different ethnic / cultural backgrounds, that does not demand the either or one of us denounce and deny our cultural backgrounds but says despite these differences there is a commonality greater than them, that is being cypriot.

The problem is that enosis destroyed that possibility, just as demanding that if and when we act NOT in this greater commonality as Cypriots despite our differences but purley as an extension of our differences , your community ALWAYS gets its wishes and mine NEVER gets theirs, destroys that possibility today.

Sure Erol, the UN declaration on the rights of self determination was instead created to give more privileges to the Colonists and not to free the people who have been oppressed by those Colonists for centuries.

TC are NOT colonialists, they ARE cypriot. Even if Cyprus had gained inpdependance directly from the ottomans / Turkey , TC would not be colonialists, they would still be Cypriot, just as once colonialism ended in SA, white SA were SA.

I ask and demand NO right other than what rights I am entitled to, as an indivdual and as a people.

Are you on drugs mate?

I assume you mean recreational drugs, I do take the odd panadol now and again. No I am not on drugs but sometimes I wish I were.

If you are indeed a Cypriot then you should respect the democratic wishes of the Cypriot people as a whole.

I absolutely respecxt the democratic wishes of Cypriot people as a whole, as long as that is what they are. Wishes of JUST of GC ,totaly opposed by TC, and because they are GC and TC are not the wishes of Cypriot people AS A WHOLE. We are not cypriots AS A WHOLE when you want and seek something not because and as a cypriot but totaly because and as a GC and only as a GC. In such cases we are then not cypriots as a whole but in fact Cypriot divided by ethnicity.

If you can't do this, then obviously you never became a Cypriot and you never integrated in the Cypriot society.

Here again we see it. If you integrate, abandond your cultural background and adopt ours you can be a cypriot. If not you are not.

And if this is the case you can only blame yourselves. You are the ones who should adjust and integrate with the local population, and not to expect the local population to instead change to integrate with a minority of newcomers.

I , we, ARE the local people, we happend to be the local people that have a different cutlural background to you.

The peoples who were under the rule of one or another empire gained their self-determination as the people they have been before the Colonists arrived.

Just not the case. White SA ARE as SA as 'native' ones. Even under the worst of oppresion by these other SA's, wise leaders like Mandela and organisations like the ANC did not define SA as only themselves and exclude white SA. If only we had of had or could get some of that wisdom in cyprus.

They were not required to change their identities to accommodate the colonists.

I have no desire or objective that you change your identity. You are the one saying that I am not cypriot because I have not vchanged my indentity.

and of course the colonists under no circumstances had any right to maintain any part of the territory under colonial rule with the excuse that they are "different" and they can't fit with the locals.

Britian, Holland Belgium, France wherever had no rights to maintain colonies after colonisation. However White SA did not loose their rights to self determination as SAs simply because they are histricaly descened from coloinal rulers. Today they express that right along with black SAs in a unitary SA state where their commonality as SA binds them togeather more than their different cultrual backgrounds seperates them and despite the most extreme and recent hsitory of oppresion between them. All credit to them for achieving this. However if black SA had said our state after colonialism can ONLY be made up of black SAs and we reject the notion of a commonality as SA with white SA, we can only express our self determination without these white SAs, then white SA would have a seperate right to self determination as a people.

If the colonists wanted to blend with the rest of the population it is them who had to change their identity to match the ones of the locals, not the other way around.

White SA do not have to change their identity or deny their cultural history to BE SA, they ARE SA and black SA do not have to change theirs to BE SA either. All that is required is that both seek to build a SA unity and commonality DESPITE these differences.

This is exactly why enosis was so destructive to our chances of building a CYPRIOT unity and commonality despite our differences.

Well, you got it wrong mate. The INTENT is to free the oppressed from the invaders, not to give to the invaders self-determination rights over the territories they previously invaded and occupied.

You are saying the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights of self determination of peoples is that GC be allowed to once and for all 'free' themselves of TC ? That , to use someone elses words, until this small Turkish community forming part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled (or assimilated), Cypriots will not have self determination. Is that what you are saying ?

No wonder we have the recent history we do !

We have been the same people that we have always been, it was up to you to integrate if you wanted.

Assimilate or go, resistance is futile. Are you GC or borg ?

I am Cypriot by birth right. My status as a cypriot is not dependent on me having to 'do' anything.

We could all be cypriot (and can), despite out differences, we just have to want to be cypriot despite them, seek unity and a commonality as cypriots despite them and without you or us having to give up our idenitity. However we could not do this if you wanted to be greek and a part of greece.

If Cyprus stayed under Ottoman rule the GCs today would be a minority on this island and Cyprus would be part of Turkey.

If Cyprus was emerging in 1960 from colonial rule of Turkey and not Britian as it did and with a TC numerical majority advocating sucsession to Turkey as an end to colonial rule, I would like to think I would be a TC like bannaiot is today a GC. I would like to think that but in reality I can not honestly say I would be for the only way to KNOW if that was the case is if it had happened. I sincerely hope that I would be a 'banniot' style TC in such a hypothetical senario.

Please don't tell me that you would then advocate the independence of Cyprus with equality between the Turkish majority and the Greek minority.

OK I wont tell you that just so long as you dont tell me that in such a hypothetical senario your views on 'democracy', 'rights to self determination', one person on vote would be no different from how they are today.

All decisions can shape and control the lives of everybody.

See above about the difference between having a chance of having an effective say in the decision that shape your ligfe and naving NO chance at all, ever whenever those decisions are ones not of indivdual choice but of communal choice.

Nobody had the right to violate your human rights,

I have rights as an indivdual and I also have rights as a people. No one can deny me these rights. My rights as a people can be expressed thorugh being a part of a unitary cypriot people, if that means a cypriot people who seek unity as such and comminality as such despite and beyond other differences. I can NOT express my right to self determination if you say I am part of the Greek people.

The members of a minority can have as effective say as everybody else, since the vote of each Cypriot should count the same without racist discriminations.

Not when the whole basis of WHY someone votes one way or another is determined BY race and only by such DIFFERENCES. In such cases your 'effecive say' becomes a reality of you always get your wishes and I never get mine, which to me is far from an 'effective say'.

Do you know any other country which has such requirements for ethnic groups?

Yes those federal states where the federal elements effectively match differnt ethnic / cultural groups, like say Belgium to name one.

Personally I am fine with it,

Excellent we have agreement. We will haggle about the exact %, I will start at 20%, you at 10% and we will settle on 15%. Thats bicommunality sorted and it only took us seven years.

As I have always said, for me the litmus test for bicommunality is would such a system have given TC a right to block the imposition of enosis on them agains their will. If it would then I almost certainly would support it as a solution and if it would not reject it. This meets my test. We are in agreement.

but I don't like double standards. Why such thing to be applied just in Cyprus, and not in Turkey as well for the Greek and other communities? And why just for the TCs in Cyprus and for all other ethnic groups as well?

I think it should be the case that if ANY unitary state one group defied by an unchangable attribute like ethnic background or gender, seeks something purely only because they are part of that group and others rejected it purely because they are not in it, then the unit of demcoracy should be the group and not individuals, though I will compromise to numricaly dominat groups by accepting the '15% rule'. However my concern is not OTHER countries my concern is MY country.

But that is not what you demand from us now.

It satisfies me with regard to bicommunality. I can not speak for others. I am speaking for myself as a TC.

This is not even what you were granted in 1960.

I am fully aware it is considerably less than we had under the 1960's agreements. It is also less than what I think is truely just, namely that when we act and want a thing as GC and TC and purley and only because we are either GC or TC , that is when we act and want NOT as a unitary people but as two different peoples, we SHOULD have one community one vote, or 50% plus support from each community seperately. However in the spirit of compromise I am prepared to reduce that which I think is truely fair to the absolute minmum necessary to address my concerns of imposition of will that is NOT unitary by defination to a mere 15%.

You were granted a lot more back then, and today you demand even more, including 1/3rd of our island as a "Turkish State"!

That english has no seperate word for you singular and you plural is disgraceful !

I can only tell you what I singular require as a TC. You would seem to not only be able to tell me what you singualr require but also what you plural require AND waht we plural require, quite a feat !

Great, so if even a child can understand and accept your arguments which are so logical, and it is just us that we are the "stupid" and "evil" ones and can not understand them, then you should have no problem at all convincing the good and intelligent Turks about the validity of your arguments.

It is not that you are stupid or evil, but more a case that if you can get to do as you like in Cyprus with no regard for TC communal will by choosing to believe one thing then you will tend to chose to believe that thing.

So instead of wasting your time trying to convince the "stupid" and "evil" GCs, go and convince the intelligent and nice Turks. They will of course agree with you, and they will give to the Greek community in Turkey everything that you demand for your community in Cyprus. Then you can have the same exact thing for your community in Cyprus. Deal?

My concern is MY country Piratis. It is a mess, we have killed and murdered each other and we live today more divided both physicaly and even worse to my mind mentaly than we ever have in our shared history.

I come here and post , at cost of considerable time and effort, not because I like to show off, or to score points, but to sincerely explain what I beleive, why I beleive it as a TC in the hope that through better understanding we can 'do better' as Cypriots.

Wrong. All Cypriots should have the same exact rights.

Exactly all cypriots should and do have the same rights, both as indivduals and as a people or peoples.

One person one vote. If you don't like this because TCs in Cyprus are a minority, then you can not blame us for it but only your own ancestors.

I do not like it when you claim that a will / desire that is solely and totaly a will NOT of a unitary people, but actually of two distinct people exactly because why you want and desire it is a function of race / ethnicity is claimed to be a vaild expression of the will a UNITARY people.

The reason why I do not like this is that it is a MEANS of denying my right as a people to self determination. It says I have no such right as a people other than the unitary cypriot one, and I have no effective say as part of a unitary cypriot people either.

If instead of moving 100s of thousands of mainland Turks to Cyprus you made the move back to Turkey, then all the problems would be solved. We would then have an even better peace than the one that the Turkish "peace operation" brought to Cyprus.

And for one brief moment I thought we might actualy be making some progress, no matter how smalle, but alas we are back to borgdom

'assimilate or go, resistance is futile'

Clearly shown and clearly understood for anybody with at least an average IQ and no special reason in playing stupid.

You may doubt my sincerity, that is your right. I however know my sincerity.

The weakest argument is that the circumstances in Cyprus are so special and unique that make your own minority deserving 10 times as much privileges and powers as any other equivalent minority, on the expense of the human and democratic rights of the majority of the Cypriot people.

And there was me thinking we had agreed the basis of 'bicommuality' but it seems in fact we are nowhere.

I do not demand that my minority has 10 times the power and priveledges at all.

What I seek is nothing more than mechanism that ensure that when you act as and GC and because you are GC and not as a unitary cypriot, that I do loose all my rights and any effective say in the decision that shape my life. I have suggested such a mechanism and in compromise I have reduced the threshold from 50% to 15%.

Again wrong, and also irrelevant. When you quote my answer you should also quote what I was answering to. You said "GC chose to define themselves as part of the Greek people" and I reminded you that this was the case since before you came to our island. If you didn't like to live in a Greek island with a mostly Greek population then you simply shouldn't have come here. It was your choice. You can't blame us now because we are Greek.

I do not blame you for being greek. I simply say if you choose to exercise your right to self determination as part of the greek people rather than as a part of a unitary cypriot people, then I have a right to self determination as a Cypriot that is NOT part of the greek people and that communal right is sepearate and equal to yours.

The nonsense is what you want to force in Cyprus. It is time to move on from the anachronistic Ottoman style systems and for you to finally accept democracy and equality of all Cypriots without racist discriminations and divisions and lame excuses from the past.

Enosis WAS a 'racist' objective in that it was all and entirely ABOUT race / ethnicity. That is why it destroyed the chance of us building a unitary cypriot nation and people without racist discriminations and divisions. Thats why enosis could not be a valid expression of the will of a UNITARY cypriot people.

All Cypriots should have the 100% of their human and democratic rights, including their right for their own properties.

Exactly all cypriots should and do have the same rights, both as indivduals and as a people or peoples.

My right to self determination can not be expressed as part of a unitary cypriot people as far as the 'unity' for a given issue actually consists of all GC wanting one thing because they are GC and different from me as a cypriot who is not GC.

Everything can be explained by your own views, your refusal to accept democracy and equality of all Cypriots without racist discriminations, and your insistence in continuing to dividing the Cypriot people in the exact same way as in the times of the Ottoman rule, so you can continue to enjoy privileges and gains on the expense of every other Cypriot. I am sure that if we accepted your terms things would be great for you.

No where to I seek to excuse any crimes.

It is obvious that you do.

If all you want to do Piratis is accuse me of incinserity, of saying what I say as lies and means of tricking and deciveing you and others, then this discussion is truly pointless.

You didn't have any such right.

Of course I have that right. EVERY indivdual has that right as part of a people. The issue is as part of what people can I validly express such a right and as part of what people can I not. Certainly as part of a Greek people , as TC would not have been able to express it. Even as part of a unitary cypriot people it is near impossible for TC to be able to express it in the face of the insistance that even when you seek something totaly based on you be GC and different as a Cypriot from me as a TC this is a valid expression of a unitary cypriot people.

We were never unitary people.

So we are NOT a unitary people, but you have rights as a people and we have no rights as people.

From the day you first invaded us you were separate because you choose to be since in this way you could have gains on our expense. You never made any effort to integrate. Blame yourselves for it, not us. We have been Greeks since before you arrived to our island and we wanted what every Greek would naturally want. The freedom of our island from foreign Imperialists so we can be part of a free Greek Republic.

And we are back to "until this small community of Turks forming part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled or assimilated Cypriots can never be 'free'"

Are you seriously surprised we have the history we do in CYprus ?

No mate, our homeland is Cyprus and you are acting as people separate from us. When you first invaded our island if you wanted to be the same people as the locals then you had to became Greek and Christians. You didn't. You choose to be remain separate. Not our fault. You can't blame us because you are different from us.

You may not like it, and clearly you do not, but I and we ARE Cypriot and we are NOT GC. I do not blame you for this. The point is we can not create a unitary Cyprus if the only options you are prepared to give me is that I deny and denounce my TC heritage and indentity and become GC or go. Giving me those options can only lead us to where we are now, in conflict and strife and divided.

So in Cyprus we have some Turkish/Muslim minority from the era of Ottoman rule. Same thing like in every other Greek territory that was formerly occupied by the Ottomans. Nothing special with your case at all.

What was special is that in Cyprus we had a chance to do better and sadly we have squnadered that chance and continue to squander it.

As part of the Cypriot people, who have been Greek long before you came to this island.

All you are saying to me, as far as I understand it, is we were cypriot and greek before you came here 500 years ago, therefore there can be no cyprus that is made up of GC and TC different but yet still one with a commonality greater than our difference, there can only be a 'free cyprus' when it is once again only GC, either by us assimilating or going.

And we wonder why we have a cyprus problem ?

If "all you hoped" was for the GCs not to want to "express their right to self determination as part of the Greek people", then this is something you have already achieved. Cypriots in their majority do not want union with Greece today, and this union has been indirectly achieved through EU, a union which has the support of at least 10% of TCs (probably a lot more) who are able today to enjoy many of the benefits of our EU accession even though this union was opposed by the Turkish and TC leaderships.

Therefore obviously that is not all that you hope for, or the Cyprus problem would have been solved long time ago.

When then was this 'solved' long ago ? In 1963 when the continued pursuit of enosis was directly connected to cypriot killing cypriot? Or in 74 when the continued pursuit of enosis was directly connected to cypriot killing cypriot ?

The problem NOW is not fear of enosis, but fear of the same idea that underpinned enosis, namely that GC have the RIGHT to do anything with and to cyprus without ANY regard for TC desires as Cypriots, because you were here first and are more than us numericaly. The problem was in the denial of our valid rights indivdualy AND as a group and as far as you continue to insist we have no such rights there is STILL a problem.

It is now obvious that the main reason you wanted to prevent Cyprus uniting with Greece was not because you cared about creating some unitary Cypriot people, but on the contrary your aim was to isolate Cyprus so it would be easier for you to bring back the divisions that existed since Ottoman rule, and make them even deeper, so you could have as much gains on our expense as possible.

Well again we slip from you singular to you plural.

I am and have been talking about me singular as a TC. As such I deny all of the above. I WANT a unitary cyprus that binds us with a communality that is greater than our differences yet that does demand either of us deny our differences.

Almost all of what you singular tell me makes achieving this next to impossible.

[Piratis]

You have this idea that Cypriots are divided into "GCs" and "TCs". This division is one which you forced since Ottoman times and which you continue, again using force, to maintain today, for the sole reason of serving your own interests on the expense of every other Cypriot, not just GCs.

I am here, I am cypriot. I am not greek and I am not greek cypriot. In 1960 when Cyprus was emerging from colonial rule, we were here. We were Cypriot. We were not Greek. We were not GC.

We could have at the end of colonial rule in Cyprus built a state based on an idea of commonality as cypriots DESPITE ethnic differences. We did not, but I still dream of a time when we will.

And when did you care about our commonality as Cypriots? When you oppressed us for 300+ years treating us as second category people, when just a few decades after you lost the control of the whole Cyprus you started demanding partition, when in the 60s you were very glad to receive a ton of privileges on our expense, when you even demanded separate Municipalities, when in the 70s you put into action your partition plan and you ethnically cleansed us from half of our island, or when today you insist on maintain and legalizing all the divisions you forced on us since the Ottoman times until today?

Your history from the very first day you set your foot on this island until today shows that you never cared about any commonality. On the contrary you always insisted that you should be separate in just about everything. And don't forget that it was Makarios who first proposed independence. It didn't even cross the minds of TCs at that time! And the only "independence" that you would accept was of course one where everything was divided into two.

So take your lame excuses elsewhere.

The fact is that you don't want a strong and united Greek state that can protect the Greek people from your aggression. You would be very happy if instead of one Greece, there were instead several small and week statelets, which you could then gradually swallow.

Cypriots can by divided in a lot of categories, not just based on their language and religion, but also based on their political views, their gender, their class etc.

The very point at which 'one person one vote' ceases to be an effective MEANS of achiveing the objectives of democracy - that people have an effective voice in the decisions that rule thier lives

See, you don't understand what democracy is!

Democracy doesn't give an "effective voice in the decisions that rule their lives" to all people. This is not an objective of democracy.

Democracy guarantees the human rights of all people. But beyond that the effective voice is the one supported by the majority.

Say for example we have a crisis and more taxes have to be collected to cover the deficit. One presidential candidate supports that the deficit should be reduced by taxing more those who have a lot of immovable property. Another candidate disagrees, and says that the deficit should be reduced by reducing the salaries of the highly paid civil servants.

Say I have a lot of immovable property, so I vote for the second candidate. Unfortunately for me the candidate I voted for did not win.

What effect did my voice have? None at all. So now I have to accept what was decided by the majority, even though it is something that affects me and people in the same group with me in a very negative way (and none of us voted for the first candidate).

- is when what defines how you vote is solely based on an UNCHANGABLE characteristic such as ethnicity, or gender.

People are free to vote based on any characteristic. Furthermore, ethnicity is not an unchangeable characteristic. Many GCs became TCs during Ottoman rule for example.

Imagine a state with 52% males and 48% females where males wanted to pass a law that only males supported because they are male and not female, and that all females opposed because they were female and not male. To me to say that in each and every case like this males should always get their will and females never theirs , simply because there are more males is not only NOT democracy but it is the anthesis of it. For me in such a senario democracy in its true sense demands that the unit for such a decision has to be the two seperate gender groups and NOT the indivdual, exactly because how and why you support it or not is NOT a function of indivdual changable choice and concsience but is entirely defined by and dependant on gender.

Now the above is clearly and absurd eterme example, but I use such an absurd and extreme example because it it is on the edges that my point is most clearly highlighted.

The principal is that when what defines how and why you support something or not is NOT a matter of indivdual changable personal choice , but in fact an extension of an unchangable characteristic, like gender or ethnicity, then democracy in its meaning that people should have an effective voice in the decisions that shape their lives, actualy demands that the unit not be the indivdual but the group.

A law that discriminates against people of a specific gender or ethnicity is against the human rights of the individual. As I said democracy includes the obligatory respect of the human rights of every single citizen. Even if there was one woman in this imaginary scenario, the men would still not be able to vote for something that would violate that woman's human rights. The woman doesn't need to be in a group to have her human rights protected.

However the example you give is unrelated with the one of Cyprus and TCs. Cyprus being part of Greece would violate none of the human rights of any TC.

And now give me an example of an actual country where women and men vote separately as groups, instead of all together as equal citizens. Is this what you do in Turkey, or the "trnc" maybe? No. Why?

But say we applied such a system. Then the citizens of a country should be divided into several groups, not just "TCs" and "GCs". If we divided Cypriots based on their ethnicity then we would have also Latins, Armenians, Maronites, and why not also Russian, English, Arab etc.
And then we would also have the groups of men and women. And why not also the groups of heterosexual and bisexual. Or people who can see and those who are blind. Or tall people and short people. The list of unchangeable characteristics (most of them far less changeable than ethnicity) could go on forever.

But is this a system that you really want? NO you just want to divide Cypriots in the one and only way that suits you, "TCs" - "GCs", just like you have done since Ottoman rule, and you do this for the sole reason of having disproportionally high amounts of power and privileges (now you demand land as well), on the expense of every other Cypriot.

In the end of the day freedom for Cyprus means for Cypriots to be able to make democratic decisions. It doesn't mean that every single Cypriot should agree and it doesn't mean that every single group should agree.

In matters of indivdual choice , one indivdual one vote is the most effective means of achieving democracy.

In matters of 'communal' choice, that is where you support 'it' or oppose 'it' is based entirely on what community you are a part of then to me one community one vote is the most effective means of achieving democracy.

All matters are matters of individual choice. Our choice might be affected by who we are, if we are men or woman, if we are tall or short, if we have some disability, if we are Greek or Turk, if we are smart or stupid, if we are rich or poor etc, but the choice is always an individual one.

It is obvious that you have no clue whatsoever about what democracy means. Dividing people along ethnic lines is not only racist but it is also against the basic democratic principle of one PERSON one vote. There is no such democratic principle as "one community one vote", and the funny thing is that you want to apply that ONLY in Cyprus and ONLY for your community.

How about one community one vote with the Armenians, Maronites and Latins also getting one vote each? Do you agree? And how about doing the same in Turkey as well?

Similarly in matter of 'gender' choice, that is where you support 'it' ot oppose 'it' is mased entirely on what gender you are one gender one vote is the most effective means of achieving democracy.

Is this what you do in the "trnc"?

Now I know you will refuse to accept this and claim that democracy MEANS one person one vote and that anything without one person one vote in undemocratic, though of course only WITHIN a nation state whilst outside of it in relations between nation states democracy means something different, ie one state one vote regardless of population size.

I know this a surely as I know that if for whatever reason GC had happend to only be 48% of the Cypriot population and TC 52% when we were emerging from colonial rule, your views would be very different.

There is no need to make assumptions when we have actual examples. What views does the minority of Greeks in Turkey have? Do they demand for their minority what you demand for yours in Cyprus? Definitely not. What they want is to be equal citizens and have their human and minority rights respected. Nothing more than this.

As long as the action taken respects the human rights of all Cypriots, the agreement of each and every group of people is not required. If you can not respect democratic choices and you equate them with "imposing" just because you happen to disagree, then you obviously have no idea what democracy means, or rather you pretend you don't know what it means trying to force on us something undemocratic so you can continue violating our democratic rights and have gains on our expense.

I think I know very well what democracy means

No you don't.

and that it is in fact you that seeks to pervert the meaning of democracy from 'people having an effective voice in the decisions that shape their lives'

That is not the meaning of democracy. People can have a voice about all the decisions that shape their lives (and not only), but how effective that voice will be depends on whether or not the same view is shared by the majority of the people. If you support something which is not acceptable by the majority then your voice will have no effect whatsoever in a democracy.

to 'one person one vote' , though of course only within nation states, between them it has a different meaning.

Democracy is a system for nation states. Other organizations can follow some democratic principles, but they are not democracies as such.

For me democracy - 'people having an effective voice in the decisions that shape their lives' does not mean that people must always get what they want but it does mean that they must have at least a chance to get what they want.

In democracies you get that chance if you manage to convince the majority of the population about the rightness of your views.

If on communal issues, ones where how you vote is entirely a function of if you are GC and TC the very reason why one person one vote becomes and ineffective MEANS of achiving democracy is because in such senarios TC have no chance of ever having a say in such decisions, ever.

This is why minority rights exist. As I have shown already the how you vote can be affected by a million different parameters, including several other "unchangeable" characteristics. You insist on dividing Cypriots only between GCs and TCs, ignoring the fact that in Cyprus there are several other ethnic groups and several other ways to categorize people.

You are the one who classifies yourself as a different kind of Cypriot. We are the exact same Cypriots we have been for 1000s of years, long before you came to our island. You came to our island, you didn't assimilate or integrate with the local population because being different and having privileges on our expense was better for you.

You are just saying the same old stuff again. If I come to cyprus and it becomes over centuries my homeland, unless I abandon my cutlural heritage and adpot yours, I am not 'cypriot' by choice. I refute this.

You refute what you said yourself, because that is not what I said. What I say is simple: We are Cypriots, and we are the same kind of Cypriots that existed on this island for 1000s of years. Coming to Cyprus and being different was your choice.

You can move to Paris and consider yourself a Parisian, but not French. This doesn't mean all the other Parisians should abandon their French identity, neither it means that the Parisians can not be allowed to take decisions as the French people they have always been, just because you moved to their city and you are not French.

I can be cypriot and without having to have abandoned my cultural background and adopted yours.

No problem with me. But apparently for you it is a problem that we didn't abandon our identity which we had for 1000s of years.

I AM cypriot and I do NOT have the same cultural background as you, but cypriot I remain. Yet for you I am not cypriot and because I did not abandond my own different cultural heritage and adopt yours.

You can be Cypriot and not Greek, in the same way you can be Parisian and not French. I really have no problem with this.

You want to be an ethnic minority in Cyprus? No problem at all. But you can not tell us that because we are Greek and we are not, that this gives to you some special rights beyond your human and minority rights.

You can be as similar or as different as you want. That is your right. But insisting that your group of 18% should be equated with the 82% of the population IS the Cyprus problem. It is the same problem we had during Ottoman rule, and you want to maintain the same problem today.

I want a notion and reality of Cypriot that binds us togeather with commonality as cypriots DESPITE our different ethnic / cultural backgrounds, that does not demand the either or one of us denounce and deny our cultural backgrounds but says despite these differences there is a commonality greater than them, that is being cypriot.

The problem is that enosis destroyed that possibility, just as demanding that if and when we act NOT in this greater commonality as Cypriots despite our differences but purley as an extension of our differences , your community ALWAYS gets its wishes and mine NEVER gets theirs, destroys that possibility today.

I already answered this:

And when did you care about our commonality as Cypriots? When you oppressed us for 300+ years treating us as second category people, when just a few decades after you lost the control of the whole Cyprus you started demanding partition, when in the 60s you were very glad to receive a ton of privileges on our expense, when you even demanded separate Municipalities, when in the 70s you put into action your partition plan and you ethnically cleansed us from half of our island, or when today you insist on maintain and legalizing all the divisions you forced on us since the Ottoman times until today?

Your history from the very first day you set your foot on this island until today shows that you never cared about any commonality. On the contrary you always insisted that you should be separate in just about everything. And don't forget that it was Makarios who first proposed independence. It didn't even cross the minds of TCs at that time! And the only "independence" that you would accept was of course one where everything was divided into two.

So take your lame excuses elsewhere.

The fact is that you don't want a strong and united Greek state that can protect the Greek people from your aggression. You would be very happy if instead of one Greece, there were instead several small and week statelets, which you could then gradually swallow.

Sure Erol, the UN declaration on the rights of self determination was instead created to give more privileges to the Colonists and not to free the people who have been oppressed by those Colonists for centuries.

TC are NOT colonialists, they ARE cypriot. Even if Cyprus had gained inpdependance directly from the ottomans / Turkey , TC would not be colonialists, they would still be Cypriot, just as once colonialism ended in SA, white SA were SA.

Yes, you are the same as the whites in SA. The point of the UN declaration on the rights of self determination is to free the people who have been oppressed by foreign empires and not to give privileges to the minorities created on those territories during colonial rule.

I ask and demand NO right other than what rights I am entitled to, as an indivdual and as a people.

You ask and demand to get as much as the Ottoman/Turkish army can get for you on our expense. This is what you have always done and this is what you continue doing today.

Are you on drugs mate?

I assume you mean recreational drugs, I do take the odd panadol now and again. No I am not on drugs but sometimes I wish I were.

If you are indeed a Cypriot then you should respect the democratic wishes of the Cypriot people as a whole.

I absolutely respecxt the democratic wishes of Cypriot people as a whole, as long as that is what they are. Wishes of JUST of GC ,totaly opposed by TC, and because they are GC and TC are not the wishes of Cypriot people AS A WHOLE. We are not cypriots AS A WHOLE when you want and seek something not because and as a cypriot but totaly because and as a GC and only as a GC. In such cases we are then not cypriots as a whole but in fact Cypriot divided by ethnicity.

The democratic wish of Cypriot as a whole is when all Cypriots vote, not just GCs, and everybody respects the result of this democratic process.
Democracy does not require the separate agreement of every group.

Therefore you do not accept the democratic wishes of the Cypriot people as a whole. Or rather you accept them when you agree with them, and you do not accept them when you don't agree with them. This is not how democracy works. What you ask for has nothing to do with democracy.

If you can't do this, then obviously you never became a Cypriot and you never integrated in the Cypriot society.

Here again we see it. If you integrate, abandond your cultural background and adopt ours you can be a cypriot. If not you are not.

I didn't ask you to abandon your culture. I asked you to respect the wishes of the Cypriot people as they are democratically expressed. You don't, and this is what disqualifies you from being a Cypriot an not your culture.

And if this is the case you can only blame yourselves. You are the ones who should adjust and integrate with the local population, and not to expect the local population to instead change to integrate with a minority of newcomers.

I , we, ARE the local people, we happend to be the local people that have a different cutlural background to you.

I am talking about the local people that you found when you first came here. It was your choice to remain separate because that gave you a lot of privileges. So don't tell us that the separation was created in 1955.

The peoples who were under the rule of one or another empire gained their self-determination as the people they have been before the Colonists arrived.

Just not the case. White SA ARE as SA as 'native' ones. Even under the worst of oppresion by these other SA's, wise leaders like Mandela and organisations like the ANC did not define SA as only themselves and exclude white SA. If only we had of had or could get some of that wisdom in cyprus.

White SAs don't get to decide where SA should belong and where it shouldn't anymore.

They were not required to change their identities to accommodate the colonists.

I have no desire or objective that you change your identity. You are the one saying that I am not cypriot because I have not vchanged my indentity.

Never said that. I said that you are not Cypriot if you can not respect the democratic wishes of the Cypriot people as a whole. And I also said that you are not the same people as we are and that was your choice, not ours.

and of course the colonists under no circumstances had any right to maintain any part of the territory under colonial rule with the excuse that they are "different" and they can't fit with the locals.

Britian, Holland Belgium, France wherever had no rights to maintain colonies after colonisation. However White SA did not loose their rights to self determination as SAs simply because they are histricaly descened from coloinal rulers.

White SAs don't have any separate right of self-determination. Time for you to stop talking nonsense.

Today they express that right along with black SAs in a unitary SA state where their commonality as SA binds them togeather more than their different cultrual backgrounds seperates them and despite the most extreme and recent hsitory of oppresion between them.

Because they have no other choice anymore. They don't have a separate self-determination and therefore they have to respect the choices of the majority.

All credit to them for achieving this. However if black SA had said our state after colonialism can ONLY be made up of black SAs and we reject the notion of a commonality as SA with white SA, we can only express our self determination without these white SAs, then white SA would have a seperate right to self determination as a people.

If the Black SAs said "now we are free we are going to throw down these artificial borders that the Colonialists created and unite with our brothers in several other neighboring African countries" then they would have every right to do this, and the White SAs wouldn't have the right to disallow this from happening.

We never asked from you to leave from Cyprus or even for a single of your human rights to be violated. You could continue to live in Cyprus as equal Cypriots and have the exact same rights as we would have.

If the colonists wanted to blend with the rest of the population it is them who had to change their identity to match the ones of the locals, not the other way around.

White SA do not have to change their identity or deny their cultural history to BE SA, they ARE SA and black SA do not have to change theirs to BE SA either. All that is required is that both seek to build a SA unity and commonality DESPITE these differences.

And this happened when the whites started to show respect to the majority of the population. Something which you have never done.

This is exactly why enosis was so destructive to our chances of building a CYPRIOT unity and commonality despite our differences.

What was destructive was the 300+ years of being separated by the racist Ottoman laws. You got so much used to unfair and disproportional privileges on our expense that you will never voluntarily accept to be equal Cypriots without racist discrimination against us.

Well, you got it wrong mate. The INTENT is to free the oppressed from the invaders, not to give to the invaders self-determination rights over the territories they previously invaded and occupied.

You are saying the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights of self determination of peoples is that GC be allowed to once and for all 'free' themselves of TC ?

The Cypriots to free themselves from foreign rulers. That is EXACTLY the the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights of self-determination, not just for Cyprus but for all territories under foreign rule.

The TC minority is simply the excuse that Turkey and Britain use to occupy our island. It is the Turkish troops that occupy our country, not the TC ones.

That , to use someone elses words, until this small Turkish community forming part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled (or assimilated), Cypriots will not have self determination. Is that what you are saying ?

Unfortunately you are helping the foreign Imperialists to deny to Cyprus its freedom so they can grand to you privileges on our expense as a reward. I hope that you will stop violating our rights otherwise you will be seen as collaborators with the foreign oppressors (something similar to the Loyalists during the US revolution) and what will happen to you will be due to your own criminal choices.

Unfortunately you show no sing of respecting our rights on this i

No wonder we have the recent history we do !

Why just the recent history? The not so recent history was not any different. You were again trying to violate our rights and gain on our expense as always. Nothing changes.

We have been the same people that we have always been, it was up to you to integrate if you wanted.

Assimilate or go, resistance is futile. Are you GC or borg ?

I am Cypriot by birth right. My status as a cypriot is not dependent on me having to 'do' anything.

Who said you should go? We have no problem in having some ethnic minority on our island. Many Greek islands have such ethnic minorities. But if you are different from us then you should remember it was your choice not to integrate, so you can't blame us for this.

We could all be cypriot (and can),

We are Cypriots since the time Turks didn't even know that Cyprus existed. We didn't wait from you to tell us this.

despite out differences, we just have to want to be cypriot despite them, seek unity and a commonality as cypriots despite them and without you or us having to give up our idenitity. However we could not do this if you wanted to be greek and a part of greece.

We were Greek long before you came to this island. Didn't you know this? And maybe every Greek island that had some Turkish minority should have been separate and "independent" so it would be easier for you to abuse it? Or this applies only to Cyprus?

If Cyprus stayed under Ottoman rule the GCs today would be a minority on this island and Cyprus would be part of Turkey.

If Cyprus was emerging in 1960 from colonial rule of Turkey and not Britian as it did and with a TC numerical majority advocating sucsession to Turkey as an end to colonial rule, I would like to think I would be a TC like bannaiot is today a GC. I would like to think that but in reality I can not honestly say I would be for the only way to KNOW if that was the case is if it had happened. I sincerely hope that I would be a 'banniot' style TC in such a hypothetical senario.

Where are the Bananiots for the real and not hypothetical scenarios of the Greeks of west and north coast of Asia Minor? Do you hear anybody saying that those territories with a Turkish majority and a Greek minority should not be part of Turkey but independent, with Greeks and Turks as equal partners?

Please don't tell me that you would then advocate the independence of Cyprus with equality between the Turkish majority and the Greek minority.

OK I wont tell you that just so long as you dont tell me that in such a hypothetical senario your views on 'democracy', 'rights to self determination', one person on vote would be no different from how they are today.

Again, you can see the views of the Greek people in Turkey. All they want is their human rights and maybe some minority rights. Nothing more.

All decisions can shape and control the lives of everybody.

See above about the difference between having a chance of having an effective say in the decision that shape your ligfe and naving NO chance at all, ever whenever those decisions are ones not of indivdual choice but of communal choice.

In a democracy everybody is free to express his views, but nobody has the right to impose them undemocratically.

Nobody had the right to violate your human rights,

I have rights as an indivdual and I also have rights as a people. No one can deny me these rights. My rights as a people can be expressed thorugh being a part of a unitary cypriot people, if that means a cypriot people who seek unity as such and comminality as such despite and beyond other differences. I can NOT express my right to self determination if you say I am part of the Greek people.

Your rights are the same as other Turkish/Muslim minorities in other parts of Greece or as those of the Greek minorities in parts of Turkey.

The members of a minority can have as effective say as everybody else, since the vote of each Cypriot should count the same without racist discriminations.

Not when the whole basis of WHY someone votes one way or another is determined BY race and only by such DIFFERENCES. In such cases your 'effecive say' becomes a reality of you always get your wishes and I never get mine, which to me is far from an 'effective say'.

In democracies the how effective your say is depends on whether or not you can convince the majority of the population. You don't have the right to force your will in an undemocratic way. Be certain that my say doesn't always become a reality. In many occasions I am in the minority and I have to accept the choices of the majority.

Do you know any other country which has such requirements for ethnic groups?

Yes those federal states where the federal elements effectively match differnt ethnic / cultural groups, like say Belgium to name one.

Federations are about separate territories, not about separate ethnic groups. Various ethnic groups exist in just about every country and in no country such thing happens on the basis of ethnicity.

Personally I am fine with it,

Excellent we have agreement. We will haggle about the exact %, I will start at 20%, you at 10% and we will settle on 15%. Thats bicommunality sorted and it only took us seven years.

As I have always said, for me the litmus test for bicommunality is would such a system have given TC a right to block the imposition of enosis on them agains their will. If it would then I almost certainly would support it as a solution and if it would not reject it. This meets my test. We are in agreement.

Why bicommunality? There are many communities in Cyprus. If we agree that your minority should have that privilege, then the same should be given to all other minorities in Cyprus. And as I hope we agree, ethnicity is not the only way to categorize people. It could be gender, sexual orientation, class etc.

but I don't like double standards. Why such thing to be applied just in Cyprus, and not in Turkey as well for the Greek and other communities? And why just for the TCs in Cyprus and for all other ethnic groups as well?

I think it should be the case that if ANY unitary state one group defied by an unchangable attribute like ethnic background or gender, seeks something purely only because they are part of that group and others rejected it purely because they are not in it, then the unit of demcoracy should be the group and not individuals, though I will compromise to numricaly dominat groups by accepting the '15% rule'. However my concern is not OTHER countries my concern is MY country.

And if the majority of your country will accept what the majority of no other country accepts, will you appreciate this?

But that is not what you demand from us now.

It satisfies me with regard to bicommunality. I can not speak for others. I am speaking for myself as a TC.

And what else is there except "bicommunality" that you need to be satisfied?

This is not even what you were granted in 1960.

I am fully aware it is considerably less than we had under the 1960's agreements. It is also less than what I think is truely just, namely that when we act and want a thing as GC and TC and purley and only because we are either GC or TC , that is when we act and want NOT as a unitary people but as two different peoples, we SHOULD have one community one vote, or 50% plus support from each community seperately. However in the spirit of compromise I am prepared to reduce that which I think is truely fair to the absolute minmum necessary to address my concerns of imposition of will that is NOT unitary by defination to a mere 15%.

I think this answers my previous question if you appreciate our will to accept what no other majority accepts. Apparently you don't. Instead of accepting that such thing would be a compromise from our side, you believe it is a compromise from yours!

You were granted a lot more back then, and today you demand even more, including 1/3rd of our island as a "Turkish State"!

That english has no seperate word for you singular and you plural is disgraceful !

I can only tell you what I singular require as a TC. You would seem to not only be able to tell me what you singualr require but also what you plural require AND waht we plural require, quite a feat !

You (singular) have never openly disagreed with the demands of your side (as far as I remember). So you (singular) and you (plural) are the same in this case. If you want, separate your position, by saying what you want and where you differ from the official position of the Turkish side, and then it will make sense to separate "you" plural and singular.

Great, so if even a child can understand and accept your arguments which are so logical, and it is just us that we are the "stupid" and "evil" ones and can not understand them, then you should have no problem at all convincing the good and intelligent Turks about the validity of your arguments.

It is not that you are stupid or evil, but more a case that if you can get to do as you like in Cyprus with no regard for TC communal will by choosing to believe one thing then you will tend to chose to believe that thing.

What I believe is the norm and what exists just about everywhere. On the contrary you want for Cyprus what exists nowhere else, and you want to create a tailored made system just to fit your own needs.

So instead of wasting your time trying to convince the "stupid" and "evil" GCs, go and convince the intelligent and nice Turks. They will of course agree with you, and they will give to the Greek community in Turkey everything that you demand for your community in Cyprus. Then you can have the same exact thing for your community in Cyprus. Deal?

My concern is MY country Piratis. It is a mess, we have killed and murdered each other and we live today more divided both physicaly and even worse to my mind mentaly than we ever have in our shared history.

I come here and post , at cost of considerable time and effort, not because I like to show off, or to score points, but to sincerely explain what I beleive, why I beleive it as a TC in the hope that through better understanding we can 'do better' as Cypriots.

Fine, but this doesn't answer my question. If the reason that GCs can not accept your position is because there is something wrong with us (and not something wrong with your position) then wouldn't that mean that you should be able to convince the Turks to apply such a system in their own country? Or there is something wrong with the Turks also?

Wrong. All Cypriots should have the same exact rights.

Exactly all cypriots should and do have the same rights, both as indivduals and as a people or peoples.

Cypriots as individuals have the same rights. Beyond that if you belong to an ethnic minority you can have some minority rights. The 82% majority can not be equated with a minority of 18%.

One person one vote. If you don't like this because TCs in Cyprus are a minority, then you can not blame us for it but only your own ancestors.

I do not like it when you claim that a will / desire that is solely and totaly a will NOT of a unitary people, but actually of two distinct people exactly because why you want and desire it is a function of race / ethnicity is claimed to be a vaild expression of the will a UNITARY people.

It is an expression of the will of Cypriots in a democratic way. There is no way that the 100% of all Cypriots will ever agree. When we talk about the will of the Cypriot people, the will of the Turkish people, the will of the American people etc, we are talking about the majorities, not about every single citizen or every single community.

For example the 2nd invasion of Iraq was supported by the majority of Americans as a whole. However it was not supported by all Americans, far from it. And it was definitely not supported by any significant amount of Arab Americans.

The reason why I do not like this is that it is a MEANS of denying my right as a people to self determination. It says I have no such right as a people other than the unitary cypriot one, and I have no effective say as part of a unitary cypriot people either.

You have a say. The how effective it is that depends on the percentage of people that support it. I am sure that if what you want for Cyprus are things that are for the interests of the majority of Cypriots and you express your position in a nice way, then the majority will support you on several occasions. But when they don't then you have to accept it. That is how democracy works.

If instead of moving 100s of thousands of mainland Turks to Cyprus you made the move back to Turkey, then all the problems would be solved. We would then have an even better peace than the one that the Turkish "peace operation" brought to Cyprus.

And for one brief moment I thought we might actualy be making some progress, no matter how smalle, but alas we are back to borgdom

'assimilate or go, resistance is futile'

Unfortunately you are quoting only parts of what I wrote in an effort to create impressions. For exmaple you missed this part: "If you can not accept the democratic decisions of the Cypriot people, but you can accept those of the Turks (which is apparent with the amounts of Settlers you are bringing in occupied Cyprus), then instead of trying to Turkify part of Cyprus by criminal means such as ethnic cleansing and land grab, you should instead move to Turkey, something which you have every right to do."

Clearly shown and clearly understood for anybody with at least an average IQ and no special reason in playing stupid.

You may doubt my sincerity, that is your right. I however know my sincerity.

Maybe it is not an issue of sincerity. You created a whole set of excuses in your mind to justify why your minority in Cyprus should have all the privileges and powers that you demand, even though such things exist nowhere else. After repeating this things for years, you actually believed them.

The weakest argument is that the circumstances in Cyprus are so special and unique that make your own minority deserving 10 times as much privileges and powers as any other equivalent minority, on the expense of the human and democratic rights of the majority of the Cypriot people.

And there was me thinking we had agreed the basis of 'bicommuality' but it seems in fact we are nowhere.

I do not demand that my minority has 10 times the power and priveledges at all.

What I seek is nothing more than mechanism that ensure that when you act as and GC and because you are GC and not as a unitary cypriot, that I do loose all my rights and any effective say in the decision that shape my life. I have suggested such a mechanism and in compromise I have reduced the threshold from 50% to 15%.

Equivalent ethnic groups in other countries have neither 50% nor 15% (e.g. Greeks in Turkey). It is a compromise from our side to accept that 15%, not from yours. And lets not forget that this is not the only thing that you (the Turkish side) demands. But a ton more things that go against even our basic human rights.

Again wrong, and also irrelevant. When you quote my answer you should also quote what I was answering to. You said "GC chose to define themselves as part of the Greek people" and I reminded you that this was the case since before you came to our island. If you didn't like to live in a Greek island with a mostly Greek population then you simply shouldn't have come here. It was your choice. You can't blame us now because we are Greek.

I do not blame you for being greek. I simply say if you choose to exercise your right to self determination as part of the greek people rather than as a part of a unitary cypriot people, then I have a right to self determination as a Cypriot that is NOT part of the greek people and that communal right is sepearate and equal to yours.

We exercised our right for self-determination as the people we have always been and who have been oppressed by foreign Imperialists for centuries. If you are separate people from us, namely the people brought here from some of the Imperialists, then no, you do not have a separate right for self-determination over land that belongs by over 80% to us.

The nonsense is what you want to force in Cyprus. It is time to move on from the anachronistic Ottoman style systems and for you to finally accept democracy and equality of all Cypriots without racist discriminations and divisions and lame excuses from the past.

Enosis WAS a 'racist' objective in that it was all and entirely ABOUT race / ethnicity.

Really? So all the Greek islands and territories that were gradually liberated from foreign oppressors and united to form a free Greek Republic were "racist"?

That is why it destroyed the chance of us building a unitary cypriot nation and people without racist discriminations and divisions.

There was never any Cypriot nation, and during the 300+ years of your rule you didn't care to create one. What we had was a Greek nation occupied by Ottoman (and other) Imperialists. Cyprus is part of the Greek nation and liberation for Cyprus meant the same as thing as liberation for all other Greek islands and territories.

Thats why enosis could not be a valid expression of the will of a UNITARY cypriot people.

It was a valid expression of the will of the oppressed Cypriot people. We are no different than Rhodes, and your minority is no different than the Turkish minority in Rhodes.

All Cypriots should have the 100% of their human and democratic rights, including their right for their own properties.

Exactly all cypriots should and do have the same rights, both as indivduals and as a people or peoples.

1 individual (e.g Erol) = 1 individual (e.g. Piratis)

But 100.000 does not equal 600.000.

My right to self determination can not be expressed as part of a unitary cypriot people as far as the 'unity' for a given issue actually consists of all GC wanting one thing because they are GC and different from me as a cypriot who is not GC.

You don't have any separate right for self-determination. Either you agree with the majority or you disagree.

Everything can be explained by your own views, your refusal to accept democracy and equality of all Cypriots without racist discriminations, and your insistence in continuing to dividing the Cypriot people in the exact same way as in the times of the Ottoman rule, so you can continue to enjoy privileges and gains on the expense of every other Cypriot. I am sure that if we accepted your terms things would be great for you.

No where to I seek to excuse any crimes.

It is obvious that you do.

If all you want to do Piratis is accuse me of incinserity, of saying what I say as lies and means of tricking and deciveing you and others, then this discussion is truly pointless.

I am talking about historical facts. And not just about the past, but today as well. At no point you showed that you care to create this "Cypriot Nation". You came to an island with a population which belonged to the Greek nation. You oppressed us and tried to de-Hellenize our island (and you continue doing this in the occupied areas today) and soon after you lost the control of the whole Cyprus you started advocating the partition pf the island.

You didn't have any such right.

Of course I have that right. EVERY indivdual has that right as part of a people. The issue is as part of what people can I validly express such a right and as part of what people can I not. Certainly as part of a Greek people , as TC would not have been able to express it.

Then it was a mistake for you to come to a Greek island. Not my fault.

Even as part of a unitary cypriot people it is near impossible for TC to be able to express it in the face of the insistance that even when you seek something totaly based on you be GC and different as a Cypriot from me as a TC this is a valid expression of a unitary cypriot people.

all other minorities have no problem. The reason is obvious: They are not trying to gain on our expense by collaborating with foreign imperialists.

We were never unitary people.

So we are NOT a unitary people, but you have rights as a people and we have no rights as people.

You have rights as an ethnic minority, which is what you are.

From the day you first invaded us you were separate because you choose to be since in this way you could have gains on our expense. You never made any effort to integrate. Blame yourselves for it, not us. We have been Greeks since before you arrived to our island and we wanted what every Greek would naturally want. The freedom of our island from foreign Imperialists so we can be part of a free Greek Republic.

And we are back to "until this small community of Turks forming part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled or assimilated Cypriots can never be 'free'"

Not really. You can just stop the crimes and accept what every other minority in every other country accepts. Then you will not be the enemy. What makes you the enemy is your own actions.

Are you seriously surprised we have the history we do in CYprus ?

I am not surprised at all. Maybe we were surprised when you first invaded our island and butchered 10s of thousands of people. Sine then we knew perfectly well what we could expect from you, and you never really surprised us.

No mate, our homeland is Cyprus and you are acting as people separate from us. When you first invaded our island if you wanted to be the same people as the locals then you had to became Greek and Christians. You didn't. You choose to be remain separate. Not our fault. You can't blame us because you are different from us.

You may not like it, and clearly you do not, but I and we ARE Cypriot and we are NOT GC.

yes ... it is called ethnic minority. How much more times do I have to repeat the obvious? And it doesn't bother me that you are an ethnic minority, what obviously bothers me is that you collaborate with foreign Imperialists to gain on our expense privileges and powers that no other ethnic minority has.

I do not blame you for this. The point is we can not create a unitary Cyprus if the only options you are prepared to give me is that I deny and denounce my TC heritage and indentity and become GC or go. Giving me those options can only lead us to where we are now, in conflict and strife and divided.

The obvious option is to accept that you are an ethnic minority. Just like all the other Muslim/Turkish minorities on European territories formerly occupied by the Ottomans.

So in Cyprus we have some Turkish/Muslim minority from the era of Ottoman rule. Same thing like in every other Greek territory that was formerly occupied by the Ottomans. Nothing special with your case at all.

What was special is that in Cyprus we had a chance to do better and sadly we have squnadered that chance and continue to squander it.

Better for whom? If it was better for all, then instead of threatening us with partition and annihilation from half of our island, you should have explained to us what was the better alternative and why it was better for us as well. Did you do that? No. In fact independence didn't even cross your mind. It was Makarios who first proposed it.

As part of the Cypriot people, who have been Greek long before you came to this island.

All you are saying to me, as far as I understand it, is we were cypriot and greek before you came here 500 years ago, therefore there can be no cyprus that is made up of GC and TC different but yet still one with a commonality greater than our difference, there can only be a 'free cyprus' when it is once again only GC, either by us assimilating or going.

Again wrong. I repeat: no need to assimilate. No need to go. Just a need to accept that you are an ethnic minority not unlike the similar Turkish/Muslim minorities in other European territories formerly occupied by the Ottomans. Beyond that you are equal Cypriot people with your 100% of human rights, and you have to respect the democratic choices of the Cypriot people as a whole, either you agree with them or not.

And we wonder why we have a cyprus problem ?

If the Greeks in Turkey had the same demands as you do in Cyprus then there would be the "Turkish problem". Of course it wouldn't last for long, since probably the Turks would then just commit one of their trademark genocides to end it.

If "all you hoped" was for the GCs not to want to "express their right to self determination as part of the Greek people", then this is something you have already achieved. Cypriots in their majority do not want union with Greece today, and this union has been indirectly achieved through EU, a union which has the support of at least 10% of TCs (probably a lot more) who are able today to enjoy many of the benefits of our EU accession even though this union was opposed by the Turkish and TC leaderships.

Therefore obviously that is not all that you hope for, or the Cyprus problem would have been solved long time ago.

When then was this 'solved' long ago ? In 1963 when the continued pursuit of enosis was directly connected to cypriot killing cypriot? Or in 74 when the continued pursuit of enosis was directly connected to cypriot killing cypriot ?

By 1968 neither the leadership nor the majority of the Cypriot population favored enosis. Obviously that was not enough for you. You wanted to take a lot more of our rights than that. The coup of 1974 did not have the support of the majority of Cypriots neither of our democratically elected leader.

The problem NOW is not fear of enosis, but fear of the same idea that underpinned enosis, namely that GC have the RIGHT to do anything with and to cyprus without ANY regard for TC desires as Cypriots, because you were here first and are more than us numericaly. The problem was in the denial of our valid rights indivdualy AND as a group and as far as you continue to insist we have no such rights there is STILL a problem.

Thank you for admitting that enosis was not the problem. The problem was the right of the Cypriot people to take ANY decision that was not approved by your minority.

It is now obvious that the main reason you wanted to prevent Cyprus uniting with Greece was not because you cared about creating some unitary Cypriot people, but on the contrary your aim was to isolate Cyprus so it would be easier for you to bring back the divisions that existed since Ottoman rule, and make them even deeper, so you could have as much gains on our expense as possible.

Well again we slip from you singular to you plural.

I am and have been talking about me singular as a TC. As such I deny all of the above. I WANT a unitary cyprus that binds us with a communality that is greater than our differences yet that does demand either of us deny our differences.

Almost all of what you singular tell me makes achieving this next to impossible.

Erol, I don't remember if you ever wrote in a concrete and specific way what exactly you personally want for Cyprus. What your leadership wants is definitely not a unitary Cyprus, but as much division as possible. If they could have their "trnc" recognized and achieve the total separation they would go for it without giving a fuck about GCs. They don't care about any unitary Cypriot people, and they never did.

On the contrary, our side, after abandoning the enosis cause, and since it was already a fact that Cyprus would be an independent country, they made every effort to make this independent country a truly independent one, a normal, democratic country like every other.

We might disagree about enosis and the past, but today the fact is that neither I, nor the majority of Cypriots support enosis. What we support is a trully independent Cyprus, with equal Cypriot citizens.

And because we value peace and stability, we are trying to satisfy you as much as possible, as long as this doesn't come to the expense of the human and democratic rights of the Cypriot people.

I already said I would go along with that 10% (which became 15%) for the TC community, and we could agree on more things.

A solution can not be found with going to the past and trying to blame each other for what happened then. You do this, and then of course I respond.

So, instead of repeating ourselves about the past, lets look about the future.

Enosis is not an option anymore. It is partly achieved though EU and in a way that it is acceptable to many TCs as well. So that issue is resolved.

What I support for the future is this:

- Equality of all Cypriot people without racist or any other discrimination.

- No borders in Cyprus, every Cypriot to be free to return to his own property or to move anywhere within the island that he wants.

- One person one vote for everything, except for certain issues where a minimum of 15% support from the TC community will be required.

- Only the Cypriot flag (and maybe EU flag) on public buildings.

- New national anthem (but the same flag. It has nothing "Greek" in it, and it was made by a TC)

- No foreign troops, no foreign bases, no foreign guarantors. EU and maybe NATO troops can be stationed in Cyprus for as long as it is needed to guarantee the security of all citizens (but without threatening other citizens). Small numbers of Greek and Turkish soldiers could be part of this international force.

- Proportional representation of TCs at all levels.

- In the case of Turkish Settlers those who were married here can stay. For the rest Turkey should offer good motives for them to return to Turkey. (e.g. a home, work etc). These motives should be truly enticing for the Settlers so most of them will return to Turkey voluntarily.

[Get Real!]

For the love of God Piratis... what the hell was all that???

[B25]

Bravo re Pirati, you are truely the man, I take off my hat to you.

Na 'sai kala file.

[Oracle]

Bravo re Pirati, you are truely the man, I take off my hat to you.

Na 'sai kala file.

B25 ... can you give us a summary?

(Otherwise, I'll stay up tonight to read it ....)

[B25]

Bravo re Pirati, you are truely the man, I take off my hat to you.

Na 'sai kala file.

B25 ... can you give us a summary?

(Otherwise, I'll stay up tonight to read it ....)

Yes, basically it is this;

Piratis rubbished all of Elro made up lies and unfounded fears
If the Turks want to be here they can be as cypriots but with minority rights
Human and democratic rights protected for all
One man one vote
A unitary state
And if the turks don't like it they can sod of to Turkey

End of

[Piratis]

Bravo re Pirati, you are truely the man, I take off my hat to you.

Na 'sai kala file.

B25 ... can you give us a summary?

(Otherwise, I'll stay up tonight to read it ....)

Yes, basically it is this;

Piratis rubbished all of Elro made up lies and unfounded fears
If the Turks want to be here they can be as cypriots but with minority rights
Human and democratic rights protected for all
One man one vote
A unitary state
And if the turks don't like it they can sod of to Turkey

End of

Sorry B25 but I don't think your summary is accurate

I realize that what I wrote is too much for most to read, but Erol has this habit of braking every line (out of context sometimes) and commenting on it, and the result is that such discussions grow big rapidly while some points are repeated over and over without adding anything particularly new to the discussion.

It is obvious that we see several things about the past in a different way and in my view there is no chance in a million that we will ever come in agreement on those.

This is why I tried to move the discussion from the past to the present and the future. Maybe there is a way to agree on that with goodwill and some compromises. If that can be done, then maybe one day we could have a solution that will be satisfactory for most Cypriots (including most TCs).

I emphasize the word "satisfactory", because if some proposal is not satisfactory to the majority of the population of Cyprus, but it is merely accepted due to the blackmail of foreign Imperialists, then such an agreement will not be the end of the Cyprus Problem but just part of it.

So if you are bored to read everything that I wrote, I don't blame you, and for the most part you will not read anything new compared to what it has already been said. Just read the last part which contains the new information, including one point where we came to agreement (which basically was the only point referring to the future as opposed to the past, and which I accepted the proposal of Erol)

[B25]

Bravo re Pirati, you are truely the man, I take off my hat to you.

Na 'sai kala file.

B25 ... can you give us a summary?

(Otherwise, I'll stay up tonight to read it ....)

Yes, basically it is this;

Piratis rubbished all of Elro made up lies and unfounded fears
If the Turks want to be here they can be as cypriots but with minority rights
Human and democratic rights protected for all
One man one vote
A unitary state
And if the turks don't like it they can sod of to Turkey

End of

Sorry B25 but I don't think your summary is accurate

I realize that what I wrote is too much for most to read, but Erol has this habit of braking every line (out of context sometimes) and commenting on it, and the result is that such discussions grow big rapidly while some points are repeated over and over without adding anything particularly new to the discussion.

It is obvious that we see several things about the past in a different way and in my view there is no chance in a million that we will ever come in agreement on those.

This is why I tried to move the discussion from the past to the present and the future. Maybe there is a way to agree on that with goodwill and some compromises. If that can be done, then maybe one day we could have a solution that will be satisfactory for most Cypriots (including most TCs).

I emphasize the word "satisfactory", because if some proposal is not satisfactory to the majority of the population of Cyprus, but it is merely accepted due to the blackmail of foreign Imperialists, then such an agreement will not be the end of the Cyprus Problem but just part of it.

So if you are bored to read everything that I wrote, I don't blame you, and for the most part you will not read anything new compared to what it has already been said. Just read the last part which contains the new information, including one point where we came to agreement (which basically was the only point referring to the future as opposed to the past, and which I accepted the proposal of Erol)

Piratis, I did read it all, and what I said is in essence the gist of your mega post.

I didn't need to summarise point by point and I noticed the small compromise at the end.

I said 'Basically' I was not about to give a deeper technical summary, but to get to a conclusion they need to read the whole post, which I did.

What I said still stands and again, I admire your tenacity to write such lengthy material. I don't have neither the patience nor the inclination to do that. This is why we leave it to the experts, you!

Thanks anyway.

You do realise now that you have said thet, you will need to explain to Ms O what you said in 2 lines only please