Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Exactly. If Cyprus was independent then she would have the right to unite with whomever she wanted, with Greece, Russia or China. It doesn't mean that Cyprus would use this right though.

If you really think the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights to self determination of peoples (not countries, not states, not nations but peoples) is that when there is a situation of an island where a numerical larger group on the Island define themselves as a different people to the smaller group , they should have the right to impose their will on the smaller group with no regards for that groups wishes, then there can be no hope.

If a majority of cypriots representing members from both communites wanted to unite with Russia then it would be a legitimate expresion of the will of a unitary Cypriot people. However when a majority of GC and only GC express a desire to unite with Greece it is just manipulation of the spirit and intent of the rights to self determination to say this is the vaild will of a unitary Cypriot people. It just is not.

The consequence of saying ANY restriction on the will of GC to do whatever they want in Cyprus, even when what they want is solely the desire of GC and because they are GC and defines them as a different people to non greek Cypriots, is that the only way of achieving this WITHOUT denying a right to self determination to those who they define as a different people is via partition. It is your insistance that GC have a RIGHT to impose something like enosis on TC against their will using the ridiculous claim that this is simply the will of a unitary Cypriot people that forces TC to see no other way of resisting this imposition of will by a people that define themselves as 'different' from them other than partition.

The prohibition on enosis in the 1960s agreements was a recognition that there was no way enosis could be achieved without depriving the TC of their valid rights other than with partition and no way of achieving parition without forced movement of people.

If you still insist today that there can be no limit on the expression of the will of a 'unitary' cypriot people that is in reality only supported by GC alone and universaly rejected by TC, not only do you seek to pervert the intention and spirit of the rights of people to self determination but you leave TC no other option than to abandon their rights to determine their own future or seek partition.

Erol, your lame excuses have already been destroyed.

I still wait an answer from you for this:

Are the Greek people in Turkey the same people as the Turks? Of course they are not. Do the Greeks of Constantinople want their city to be part of Turkey? Of course they don't. But it is not up to them to decide.

You can have the same rights that the Greek people have in Turkey. Nothing more and nothing less.

The privileges that were granted to you by foreign Imperialists were granted to you not because you have any right to them, but as a reward given to you for helping them to maintain troops and control over our island.

A small ethnic minority does not have the right to undemocratically decide where a territory should belong and where it shouldn't. This is the same for all ethnic minorities - like the Greeks of Constantinople I talked about earlier. If it was as you say then Constantinople wouldn't be part of Turkey, but an independent country where Greeks and Turks would have equal power. If you think that this is the right thing to do, then practice what you preach with the case of Constantinople and every other territory with a Turkish majority and a Greek population, and then come to demand the same for the TCs in Cyprus.

[erolz3]

YOUR assertion (not Makrios' but YOURS) is that because Markios sought to abbrogate the treaties of guarantee by seeking a UN resolution which would guarantee the island's independence and territorial integrity is proof that he did not seek enosis.

No, it was not my assertion. It was actually yours:

Pathetic Oracle. Now you are trying to re write history that is only days old and where the record is in this thread.

The thread starts with youe citing this article and then saying

Neither Greece nor Makarios sought Enosis.

This is nonsense but what is even greater nonsense is your claiming this proven by the article you cite.

As your own source clearly points out what Makarios was trying to achieve in these UN meetings was the 'abrogation of the Treaty of Guarantee'. A essential part of achieving enosis.

Makarios was seeking extra guarantees from the Security Council towards Cyprus' "territorial integrity" ... so he was clearly fearful Cyprus' independence was in jeopardy. You cannot then conclude he was aiming for Enosis.

No you can not which is why I say that explicitly. I said

An expression of support for 'indpendance' neither proves or disproves a desire for enosis, for if you desire enosis then 'independance' is a necessary prerequist.

What I am refuting here is your rididulous assertion that your article is proof that Makarios did not seek enosis.

The evidence that Makarios DID support enosis is not in the newspaper article you cite but in great numbers of newspapers articles, interviews, reports of speeches given and UN documents where he said explicitly that he did support and want enosis.

Makarios demanding extra assurances from the SC, towards independence and territorial integrity, contradicts your claim that he was seeking Enosis.

No it does. I have shown why it does not clearly. It is niether proof that he did seek enosis or proof that he did not. Proof that he DID support enosis directly from his own mouth is copius. If you really want me to start listing the times and places and newspaers in which Makarios did direct express his desire and support of enosis, I will. It is not hard to do. First however you should just admit that the claim that makrios did not seek enosis is proven by the article you cite is rubbish, because it is rubbish. Of course you will not do this, for truth and reality are of no interest to you, reasoned analysis is of no interest to you. You have clearly shown in my view that lies and distortion and re writing the past are your objectives and you will persue this no matter how ridiculous it makes you look.

[Sotos]

Exactly. If Cyprus was independent then she would have the right to unite with whomever she wanted, with Greece, Russia or China. It doesn't mean that Cyprus would use this right though.

If you really think the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights to self determination of peoples (not countries, not states, not nations but peoples) is that when there is a situation of an island where a numerical larger group on the Island define themselves as a different people to the smaller group , they should have the right to impose their will on the smaller group with no regards for that groups wishes, then there can be no hope.

If a majority of cypriots representing members from both communites wanted to unite with Russia then it would be a legitimate expresion of the will of a unitary Cypriot people. However when a majority of GC and only GC express a desire to unite with Greece it is just manipulation of the spirit and intent of the rights to self determination to say this is the vaild will of a unitary Cypriot people. It just is not.

The consequence of saying ANY restriction on the will of GC to do whatever they want in Cyprus, even when what they want is solely the desire of GC and because they are GC and defines them as a different people to non greek Cypriots, is that the only way of achieving this WITHOUT denying a right to self determination to those who they define as a different people is via partition. It is your insistance that GC have a RIGHT to impose something like enosis on TC against their will using the ridiculous claim that this is simply the will of a unitary Cypriot people that forces TC to see no other way of resisting this imposition of will by a people that define themselves as 'different' from them other than partition.

The prohibition on enosis in the 1960s agreements was a recognition that there was no way enosis could be achieved without depriving the TC of their valid rights other than with partition and no way of achieving parition without forced movement of people.

If you still insist today that there can be no limit on the expression of the will of a 'unitary' cypriot people that is in reality only supported by GC alone and universaly rejected by TC, not only do you seek to pervert the intention and spirit of the rights of people to self determination but you leave TC no other option than to abandon their rights to determine their own future or seek partition.

Erol, your lame excuses have already been destroyed.

I still wait an answer from you for this:

Are the Greek people in Turkey the same people as the Turks? Of course they are not. Do the Greeks of Constantinople want their city to be part of Turkey? Of course they don't. But it is not up to them to decide.

You can have the same rights that the Greek people have in Turkey. Nothing more and nothing less.

The privileges that were granted to you by foreign Imperialists were granted to you not because you have any right to them, but as a reward given to you for helping them to maintain troops and control over our island.

A small ethnic minority does not have the right to undemocratically decide where a territory should belong and where it shouldn't. This is the same for all ethnic minorities - like the Greeks of Constantinople I talked about earlier. If it was as you say then Constantinople wouldn't be part of Turkey, but an independent country where Greeks and Turks would have equal power. If you think that this is the right thing to do, then practice what you preach with the case of Constantinople and every other territory with a Turkish majority and a Greek population, and then come to demand the same for the TCs in Cyprus.

When the Turks are the majority they give NOTHING to the minorities. They want the 100%! When the Turks are the minority they want HALF of everything The Turks in Turkey are 80% and the Kurds are 20%. How much power the Kurds have? 0%!!! They don't even recognize that their minority exists!!! In Cyprus the Turks are the 18% and they want 50%!!! Greedy bastards! They are a parasitical disease for Cyprus!

[erolz3]

Erol, your lame excuses have already been destroyed.

I will ask again

Do you really think the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights to self determination of peoples (not countries, not states, not nations but peoples) is that when there is a situation of an island where a numerical larger group on the Island define themselves as a different people to the smaller group , they should have the right to impose their will on the smaller group with no regards for that groups wishes, then there can be no hope.

I still wait an answer from you for this:

Are the Greek people in Turkey the same people as the Turks? Of course they are not. Do the Greeks of Constantinople want their city to be part of Turkey? Of course they don't. But it is not up to them to decide.

Well your argument here would seem to be based on 'others have their rights abused as people eleswhere in the world so we should be able to abuse yours in a similar way'. Not the strongest of positions I would say.

To answer your question.

Firstly it has to be recognised that the modern Turkish state was created in a time that predated the formal codification of these rights in UN charters and through force of arms resisting multiple imperialsit attacks.

Having said that what I will also say is that what I believe in reagrds to GC and TC in Cyprus is no different from what I believe should be the case in turkey in regards to 'ethnic turks' and 'ethinc kurds' living in Turkey. That is as far as a majority of ethic turks, that excludes ethnic kurds becasue they are ethnic kurds, seek to impose something on ethnic kurds that is ONLY supported by ethnic Turks that exclude kurds and universaly opposed by ethnic kurds themsleves, then yes the ethnic kurds have a right to resist this imposition in terms of their right to self determination.

I believe Turkey can no more legitimately claiming to act in the name of a unitary turkish people when in fact support comes ONLY from ethnic turks and is universaly rejected by non ethnic turks , than the Cyprus can. Even a child could see that to say you act legitimately in the name of a unitary people when support is divided amongst that 'unitary' people absolutely and totaly based on some ethnic criteria that divides them, is a bogus claim.

You can have the same rights that the Greek people have in Turkey. Nothing more and nothing less.

YOU do not get to chose and decide what rights I and my community / people can have.

The privileges that were granted to you by foreign Imperialists were granted to you not because you have any right to them, but as a reward given to you for helping them to maintain troops and control over our island.

This is your belief. My belief is that the agreements supported by Greece and signed and accepted by Makarios on behalf of the GC community were structure as they were because of a recogniton that as far a GC chose to define themselves as part of the Greek people and express their right to self determination as part of such, the non greek TC community had an equal right to also determine their own future as a group not included in yours but excluded by it.

A small ethnic minority does not have the right to undemocratically decide where a territory should belong and where it shouldn't.

A group that by defintion excludes another group can not in any sensible way claim to be doing so as an expression of the valid will of a UNITARY people that includes both their own group and the the one they exclude. The concept is nonsense, yet it was is needed to be beleived if you are to be allowed to act in ways that place no limits on your rights at all whilst ignoring ours even exist.

This is the same for all ethnic minorities - like the Greeks of Constantinople I talked about earlier. If it was as you say then Constantinople wouldn't be part of Turkey, but an independent country where Greeks and Turks would have equal power. If you think that this is the right thing to do, then practice what you preach with the case of Constantinople and every other territory with a Turkish majority and a Greek population, and then come to demand the same for the TCs in Cyprus.

I have explained how my views are consistent. However I am NOT turkish, nor am I greek and my country is not turkey and it is not greece. Those countries have their own issues and problems but they do not have OURS. I am concerned first and foremost with how we can build a better Cyprus state and a REAL unitary people in our shared homeland than we have managed to do to date.

My beleif is that at the core of what has stopped us in the past and still stops us today is this very notion of yours that GC acting purely as GC and in ways that explicitly exclude TC have a right to implement things that are only supported by gc cypriots, and supported by them because they see themselves as 'other' to TC cypriots, and that are universaly opposed by TC cypriots can be claimed to be the valid expression of the will of a UNITARY people.

In short as long as you insist on claiming that the purpose and intent of the rights to self determination is to allow the imposition of a pruely GC will on TC against their will in the name of a UNITARY people then the chances of an greed solution leading to the development over time of a truely unitary cypriot are remote.

You can in essence define how 'unitary' a people actualy are by the degree to which they seek objectives and ideals that are shared amongst them depsite their differences or seek objectives and ideals that are totaly a reflection of their differences. We will know when we have truely created a unitary cypriot people when the chances that GC want one thing BECAUSE they are GC and different from TC and TC wanting a different thing because they are TC and different from GC simply never occurs. The only way to get to this end point is with an accpetance than until we do there has to be some protection for TC for when and if GC seek things BECAUSE they are different from TC and visa versa.

[DTA]

Erol, your lame excuses have already been destroyed.

I will ask again

Do you really think the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights to self determination of peoples (not countries, not states, not nations but peoples) is that when there is a situation of an island where a numerical larger group on the Island define themselves as a different people to the smaller group , they should have the right to impose their will on the smaller group with no regards for that groups wishes, then there can be no hope.

I still wait an answer from you for this:

Are the Greek people in Turkey the same people as the Turks? Of course they are not. Do the Greeks of Constantinople want their city to be part of Turkey? Of course they don't. But it is not up to them to decide.

Well your argument here would seem to be based on 'others have their rights abused as people eleswhere in the world so we should be able to abuse yours in a similar way'. Not the strongest of positions I would say.

To answer your question.

Firstly it has to be recognised that the modern Turkish state was created in a time that predated the formal codification of these rights in UN charters and through force of arms resisting multiple imperialsit attacks.

Having said that what I will also say is that what I believe in reagrds to GC and TC in Cyprus is no different from what I believe should be the case in turkey in regards to 'ethnic turks' and 'ethinc kurds' living in Turkey. That is as far as a majority of ethic turks, that excludes ethnic kurds becasue they are ethnic kurds, seek to impose something on ethnic kurds that is ONLY supported by ethnic Turks that exclude kurds and universaly opposed by ethnic kurds themsleves, then yes the ethnic kurds have a right to resist this imposition in terms of their right to self determination.

I believe Turkey can no more legitimately claiming to act in the name of a unitary turkish people when in fact support comes ONLY from ethnic turks and is universaly rejected by non ethnic turks , than the Cyprus can. Even a child could see that to say you act legitimately in the name of a unitary people when support is divided amongst that 'unitary' people absolutely and totaly based on some ethnic criteria that divides them, is a bogus claim.

You can have the same rights that the Greek people have in Turkey. Nothing more and nothing less.

YOU do not get to chose and decide what rights I and my community / people can have.

The privileges that were granted to you by foreign Imperialists were granted to you not because you have any right to them, but as a reward given to you for helping them to maintain troops and control over our island.

This is your belief. My belief is that the agreements supported by Greece and signed and accepted by Makarios on behalf of the GC community were structure as they were because of a recogniton that as far a GC chose to define themselves as part of the Greek people and express their right to self determination as part of such, the non greek TC community had an equal right to also determine their own future as a group not included in yours but excluded by it.

A small ethnic minority does not have the right to undemocratically decide where a territory should belong and where it shouldn't.

A group that by defintion excludes another group can not in any sensible way claim to be doing so as an expression of the valid will of a UNITARY people that includes both their own group and the the one they exclude. The concept is nonsense, yet it was is needed to be beleived if you are to be allowed to act in ways that place no limits on your rights at all whilst ignoring ours even exist.

This is the same for all ethnic minorities - like the Greeks of Constantinople I talked about earlier. If it was as you say then Constantinople wouldn't be part of Turkey, but an independent country where Greeks and Turks would have equal power. If you think that this is the right thing to do, then practice what you preach with the case of Constantinople and every other territory with a Turkish majority and a Greek population, and then come to demand the same for the TCs in Cyprus.

I have explained how my views are consistent. However I am NOT turkish, nor am I greek and my country is not turkey and it is not greece. Those countries have their own issues and problems but they do not have OURS. I am concerned first and foremost with how we can build a better Cyprus state and a REAL unitary people in our shared homeland than we have managed to do to date.

My beleif is that at the core of what has stopped us in the past and still stops us today is this very notion of yours that GC acting purely as GC and in ways that explicitly exclude TC have a right to implement things that are only supported by gc cypriots, and supported by them because they see themselves as 'other' to TC cypriots, and that are universaly opposed by TC cypriots can be claimed to be the valid expression of the will of a UNITARY people.

In short as long as you insist on claiming that the purpose and intent of the rights to self determination is to allow the imposition of a pruely GC will on TC against their will in the name of a UNITARY people then the chances of an greed solution leading to the development over time of a truely unitary cypriot are remote.

You can in essence define how 'unitary' a people actualy are by the degree to which they seek objectives and ideals that are shared amongst them depsite their differences or seek objectives and ideals that are totaly a reflection of their differences. We will know when we have truely created a unitary cypriot people when the chances that GC want one thing BECAUSE they are GC and different from TC and TC wanting a different thing because they are TC and different from GC simply never occurs. The only way to get to this end point is with an accpetance than until we do there has to be some protection for TC for when and if GC seek things BECAUSE they are different from TC and visa versa.

His all arguement is based around the fact that the GC are the Majority on the Island - where this falls down so absolutely is that fact that they are very much the Minority in the Northern part of the Island.

[Oracle]

What I am refuting here is your rididulous assertion that your article is proof that Makarios did not seek enosis.

Refute my assertion all you like. But what you did NOT do was show how an accusation of desire for Enosis could be ascribed to Makarios when he was actively seeking (see this article) to gain EXTRA security against the LOSS of Independence and Territorial Integrity for Cyprus.

To back Makarios' worries, we have the unfolding history and unfortunate present. And you may well go and find many other later articles which put words in his mouth, but there are just as many, more trusted sources which suggest he did NOT seek Enosis post-1960. It may be argued, that given Turkeys' obvious interest in Cyprus, perhaps he should have, for even extra security. Who can blame him?

But at the time he was a high profile member of the "Non-Aligned Movement" and maintained a high profile of Neutrality, as the UNFICYP (1964) resolutions and actions prove. And the final proof of the pudding was in 1968 when he received 96% support in the elections standing against the pro-Enosis, Evdokas. A massive populace endorsement of Makarios' ONE and only wish for Independence and Territorial Integrity for Cyprus.

You cannot argue with that ....

[Piratis]

Erol, your lame excuses have already been destroyed.

I will ask again

Do you really think the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights to self determination of peoples (not countries, not states, not nations but peoples) is that when there is a situation of an island where a numerical larger group on the Island define themselves as a different people to the smaller group , they should have the right to impose their will on the smaller group with no regards for that groups wishes, then there can be no hope.

The intent of the UN charters on the rights of self-determination of peoples is to liberate people who have been under foreign rule (like us) from those Imperialists who occupied their lands (like the Ottomans and the British).

We are not the ones who imposed our will on you, you are the ones who came to Cyprus to impose your will on us. The UN resolutions of self-determination have as an aim to correct this injustice.

The Ottomans created a Muslim minority here just like they create Muslim minorities in all other Christian territories they occupied. The same thing with White Imperialists who colonized Africa, Asia etc. The minorities created by these former Imperialists can have their human rights and maybe some minority rights, but definitely not the right to determine the destiny of those territories anymore. That is exactly the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights to self determination.

Did you seriously think that the intent of the UN charter for self-determination is to grand privileges to the settlers that the Imperialists brought on the territories they occupied?? Quite the CONTRARY.

I still wait an answer from you for this:

Are the Greek people in Turkey the same people as the Turks? Of course they are not. Do the Greeks of Constantinople want their city to be part of Turkey? Of course they don't. But it is not up to them to decide.

Well your argument here would seem to be based on 'others have their rights abused as people eleswhere in the world so we should be able to abuse yours in a similar way'. Not the strongest of positions I would say.

The rights of an ethnic minority are not abused by the minority accepting to respect the decisions taken democratically by the population of a territory as a whole. This is what you believe, not me. And if you believe that this is the case then you should practice what you preach, give to the Greek minority in Turkey what you demand from us in Cyprus, and then come to demand the same for your own minority in Cyprus.

To answer your question.

Firstly it has to be recognised that the modern Turkish state was created in a time that predated the formal codification of these rights in UN charters and through force of arms resisting multiple imperialsit attacks.

Having said that what I will also say is that what I believe in reagrds to GC and TC in Cyprus is no different from what I believe should be the case in turkey in regards to 'ethnic turks' and 'ethinc kurds' living in Turkey. That is as far as a majority of ethic turks, that excludes ethnic kurds becasue they are ethnic kurds, seek to impose something on ethnic kurds that is ONLY supported by ethnic Turks that exclude kurds and universaly opposed by ethnic kurds themsleves, then yes the ethnic kurds have a right to resist this imposition in terms of their right to self determination.

I believe Turkey can no more legitimately claiming to act in the name of a unitary turkish people when in fact support comes ONLY from ethnic turks and is universaly rejected by non ethnic turks , than the Cyprus can. Even a child could see that to say you act legitimately in the name of a unitary people when support is divided amongst that 'unitary' people absolutely and totaly based on some ethnic criteria that divides them, is a bogus claim.

You didn't answer the question again. I asked you about Constantinople, which has a Turkish majority and a Greek minority. This would be the equivalent (but in reverse) of what we have in Cyprus.

The case of the Kurds is completely different. The Kurds are the majority in Kurdistan for 1000s of years, and they deserve to be freed from the Turks, just like Cyprus. Then the Turkish minority in Kurdistan can also have the same rights as the TC minority in Cyprus or the Greek minority in Turkey.

You can have the same rights that the Greek people have in Turkey. Nothing more and nothing less.

YOU do not get to chose and decide what rights I and my community / people can have.

You should have thought of that before you invaded my island in order to impose your rule over us. If you don't like the fact that you are a minority in Cyprus then feel free to go back to where you came from.

The privileges that were granted to you by foreign Imperialists were granted to you not because you have any right to them, but as a reward given to you for helping them to maintain troops and control over our island.

This is your belief. My belief is that the agreements supported by Greece and signed and accepted by Makarios on behalf of the GC community were structure as they were because of a recogniton that as far a GC chose to define themselves as part of the Greek people and express their right to self determination as part of such, the non greek TC community had an equal right to also determine their own future as a group not included in yours but excluded by it.

And as I have clearly shown what you got was not your right, because if you had such right then so would the Greeks of Constantinople and every other ethnic minority in every other territory.

We have been Greeks long before you came to our island and if you didn't like this fact you shouldn't have come here.

A small ethnic minority does not have the right to undemocratically decide where a territory should belong and where it shouldn't.

A group that by defintion excludes another group can not in any sensible way claim to be doing so as an expression of the valid will of a UNITARY people that includes both their own group and the the one they exclude. The concept is nonsense, yet it was is needed to be beleived if you are to be allowed to act in ways that place no limits on your rights at all whilst ignoring ours even exist.

Same case as the one of the Greeks of Constantinople. Greeks of Constantinople are a different people from the Turks, and they definitely didn't want their territory to be part of Turkey. Same with every other ethnic minority.

So stop trying to invent things to excuse your crimes. An ethnic minority does not have the right to determine where a territory should belong and where it shouldn't.

This is the same for all ethnic minorities - like the Greeks of Constantinople I talked about earlier. If it was as you say then Constantinople wouldn't be part of Turkey, but an independent country where Greeks and Turks would have equal power. If you think that this is the right thing to do, then practice what you preach with the case of Constantinople and every other territory with a Turkish majority and a Greek population, and then come to demand the same for the TCs in Cyprus.

I have explained how my views are consistent. However I am NOT turkish, nor am I greek and my country is not turkey and it is not greece. Those countries have their own issues and problems but they do not have OURS. I am concerned first and foremost with how we can build a better Cyprus state and a REAL unitary people in our shared homeland than we have managed to do to date.

Sure, every other country got it wrong, including Turkey, and you by using the army of Turkey you can blackmail the Cypriot people and force on us the "right" system. Your hypocrisy has no limits.

You are an ethnic minority in Cyprus just like the Greeks of Turkey are and just like every other ethnic minority in every other country.

We are not going to change who we are, despite your efforts that go on for centuries to destroy our identity and de-Hellenize our island. You knew who we are when you first invaded our island and if you want to be the same people as we are then feel free to assimilate and integrate with us. If you don't then you will remain an ethnic minority and your rights are the same as the ones of Greeks in Turkey. Nothing more and nothing less.

[erolz3]

Refute my assertion all you like. But what you did NOT do was show how an accusation of desire for Enosis could be ascribed to Makarios when he was actively seeking (see this article) to gain EXTRA security against the LOSS of Independence and Territorial Integrity for Cyprus.

Once more

I never claimed that seeking abbrogation of treaties of gurantee via a UN resolution asserting the independance and territoria Integrity of Cyprus was proof the he did seek enosis, because it is not.

What I am asserting it that neither is it proof that he did NOT seek enosis, which is what you claimed by citing the article and saying 'Neither Greece nor Makarios sought Enosis.' and going on to say 'Which this article proves was not the case.'

Just as the events reported in the article are not proof that Makarios DID seek enosis, so noeither are they proof that he did NOT, as you are tryiong to make out.

As to proof that DOES show Makarios supported enosis, first we have the prior assertion by you and others that EOKA was not a strugle for enosis and only a struggle for indpendance. I have already shown that in his own words Makarios aknowledged to the UN as recorded by the UN that this was not the case, that is WAS a struggle for enosis.

As to proof that Makrios continue to seek enosis after this struggle, just tell me how many newspaper reports, interviews, reports of his speeches and UN reports you would like me to present when he says his (and the GC people) desire is still for enosis. One ? Three ? Five ? Ten ? Just tell me how many you would like and I will provide them.

While I am at it I can also provide the New York Time article from May 11, 1964 that has the headline 'PAPANDREOU FAVORS CYPRUS-GREEK UNION' just so we dont leave out Greece from your intial claim "'Neither Greece nor Makarios sought Enosis".

Firstly let's admit that the article you cited is NO proof that Makarios did NOT seek enosis, for the thing he was seeking in the article was a necessary step to achieve enosis. It does not prove he DID but lets us agree that it does not prove he did NOT.

If we can get over that ridiculous claim of yours then I am more than happy to provide the copious evidence that Makarios DID seek and support the idea of enosis long after 1960.

[erolz3]

We are not the ones who imposed our will on you,

To claim the attempt by GC alone to impose enosis on ALL cypriots both GC and TC alike, with no regard for TC wishes was not an attempt to impose your will on ours is absurdity beyond reason.

To have done this historicaly is one thing but to demand today that it is your RIGHT to do this any time you feel like it is another entierly.

you are the ones who came to Cyprus to impose your will on us.

To classify me only as an ottoman invader and oppressor, in 1960 and still today and NOT a cypriot, or say I can only be regarded as a cypriot as long as a accept I am a 'different' cypriot to you (ie one that is a former invader and opressor) and thus my rights as a group are different to yours IS the cyprus problem.

The UN resolutions of self-determination have as an aim to correct this injustice.

Sure the UN declerations on the rights to self determination say you have rights to determine your own future but we do not, for we are not cypriots like you are, but in fact a 'different sort of cypriots' to you the real cypriots and are invaders and oppressors. Sure Piratis thats exactly what they say - if you live on planet madness as you aparently do.

The Ottomans created a Muslim minority here just like they create Muslim minorities in all other Christian territories they occupied. The same thing with White Imperialists who colonized Africa, Asia etc. The minorities created by these former Imperialists can have their human rights and maybe some minority rights, but definitely not the right to determine the destiny of those territories anymore. That is exactly the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights to self determination.

This is sheer nonsense. The idea that if 'native' SA has delcared that they wanted to express their rights to self determination as a people that explicitly defined those SA descended from former colonials are not a part of their people and are a different people, then that different people would have no rights themselves to self determination because they were former colonial rulers.

Did you seriously think that the intent of the UN charter for self-determination is to grand privileges to the settlers that the Imperialists brought on the territories they occupied?? Quite the CONTRARY.

No I seriously think that its INTENT is that peoples should be able to determine their own future, regardless of if historicaly they were 'invaders' or not. As far as you chose to express YOUR will to self determination in ways that exluded us, destroyed the idea of us be unitary despite our differences, then we had and have a valid seperate and equal right to determine OUR own future, and regardless of the different status you apply to one kind of cypriot and another.

The rights of an ethnic minority are not abused by the minority accepting to respect the decisions taken democratically by the population of a territory as a whole. This is what you believe, not me.

The rights of a minority as part of a unitary people are not abused by majority decisions when there is even marginal support from that minority. However when the 'democratic will' is absolutely and totaly a function of them being different from each other because of the unchanagable physical characteristic of their ethnicity, then yes I believe such a 'democratic' imposition is an abuse of that minorites rights and actually a perversion of the meaning of democray as being people should have an effective say in the decisions that shape and control their lives.

In terms of a cyprus solution this mean I require equality of the communites ONLY in a very special and aytpical senario. Namely one where what defines how people vote is their differences as cypriots and not their similarites. If you can get even 15% support seperately from TC and a majority of all Cypriots then fine, majority rules is no issue to me. Hell if you can get even 10% support from TC and majority of all Cypriots then fine.

However if you tell me when there is 0% support from TC for something in their own shared homeland, if there is a majority of all Cypriots you have the RIGHT to do this thing, as a valid expression of a UNITARY cypriot will, because you are more than us and or you are a different kind of cypriot than us, namely a real cypriot where as we are ex invader cypriots, then I simply tell you to get lost.

Such a demand in such situations is not a reflection of idea of democracy - that people should have an effective voice in the decisions that shape and control their lives and it is not a reflection of the dieal of self determination - that people should rule thmesleves and not be ruled by those that consider themselves 'other'. In my opinion it is simply a demand for the right to exercise ethnic tyranny.

And if you believe that this is the case then you should practice what you preach, give to the Greek minority in Turkey what you demand from us in Cyprus, and then come to demand the same for your own minority in Cyprus.

My views and beliefs are universal. Saying that I should make no attempt to argue MY OWN nations future should be based on such views and beliefs until I first make sure other nations that are NOT my own do so, is to use a favourite word of mine, nonsense.

You didn't answer the question again. I asked you about Constantinople, which has a Turkish majority and a Greek minority. This would be the equivalent (but in reverse) of what we have in Cyprus.

If it makes you happy I will repeat exactly what I did replacing Kurds with Turkish citizens of Greek descent. In any case what I said in the last paragraph make no mention of kurds. I'll say it agaion for you.

I believe Turkey can no more legitimately claiming to act in the name of a unitary turkish people when in fact support comes ONLY from ethnic turks and is universaly rejected by non ethnic turks , than the Cyprus can. Even a child could see that to say you act legitimately in the name of a unitary people when support is divided amongst that 'unitary' people absolutely and totaly based on some ethnic criteria that divides them, is a bogus claim.

YOU do not get to chose and decide what rights I and my community / people can have.

You should have thought of that before you invaded my island in order to impose your rule over us. If you don't like the fact that you are a minority in Cyprus then feel free to go back to where you came from.

Same old same old. What rights we get, according to you, are defined by the fact that you are 'real' cypriots and thus get rights but we are not the same as that, but a different kind of cypriot to you and thus do not get these rights.

And as I have clearly shown what you got was not your right,

You are confusing 'clearly shown' with relentlessly repeated, which is not the same thing.

because if you had such right then so would the Greeks of Constantinople and every other ethnic minority in every other territory.

And once more the argument that because not everyone everywhere, regardless of the vastly different circustance that lead them to where they are today, has their rights as peoples fully respected , we as TC can not have or expect ot have ours respected in our own homeland, is just about the weakest argument you could present.

We have been Greeks long before you came to our island and if you didn't like this fact you shouldn't have come here.

Same old same old. You are the true cypriots and by your own defintion we are not real cypriots, and thus you can have rights but we can not and if we dont like we should just go away.

This is WHY we have a situation in Cyprus today that we do, compared with such a wonderous one that we could potentialy build if you were to stop this nonsense.

And before you jump up and down screaming 'justifying attrocites, justifiying attrocites', such views as the ones you express above do NOT justify the events of 74 and the staus quo established any more than they justify the evtns in the priod 64-74 and that prior status quo but they DO explain them.

So stop trying to invent things to excuse your crimes. An ethnic minority does not have the right to determine where a territory should belong and where it shouldn't.

No where to I seek to excuse any crimes.

An ethnic minority does not have the right to determine where a terrirtory should belong and where is should not.

A people DOES have the right to determin their own future, even if that people is desended from former colonial rulers. As far as you as GC chose to exercise your right to self determination as part of the unitary Greek people , we had and have a rioght to exercise ours as a different , seperate and equal people. As far as you chose to exercise your right to self determination as part of a cypriot people that includes us , in actuality and not just 'word' we have no seperate right to self determination.

Sure, every other country got it wrong, including Turkey, and you by using the army of Turkey you can blackmail the Cypriot people and force on us the "right" system. Your hypocrisy has no limits.

Not every country got it wrong but most having been formed prior to the codification of the rights of peoples to self determination have serious flaws it is true. There are however examples of countries that got it right and even some rarer examples of where old systems created before the codification of the rights of people to self determination have been corrected after the fact.

You are an ethnic minority in Cyprus just like the Greeks of Turkey are and just like every other ethnic minority in every other country.

As far as you ACT in ways that are consistent with the concept and reality of a unitary Cypriot people I have not a single issue with being part of an ethnic minority. However when you chose to act in ways that totaly undermine the commonality that makes us a unitary people in order to impose your ethnic communal will on mine against my will that is the point at which I say 'hang on in this regard we are NOT a unitary people, by YOUR actions' and thus it is the point where I stand up demand my right as a people , whose homeland is Cyprus, seperate from you as people BECAUSE you act as a people seperate from me.

We are not going to change who we are,

I do not ask you to change who you are. I do not even ask you to NOT chose to exercise your right to self determination as part of the Greek people if you want.

All I hope, for all our sakes, is that you can realise that if you chose to exercise your right to self determination as part of the Greek people, you can not legitimatly claim that is then the will of a unitary cypriot people in order to deny us our rights as a people that live in cyprus and are NOT part of the Greek people and do NOT want to express their right to self determination as part of the Greek people.

That is all I hope, and in would seem to be to much to hope for in your case, to all our costs as far as I am concerned.

[Piratis]

We are not the ones who imposed our will on you,

To claim the attempt by GC alone to impose enosis on ALL cypriots both GC and TC alike

You have this idea that Cypriots are divided into "GCs" and "TCs". This division is one which you forced since Ottoman times and which you continue, again using force, to maintain today, for the sole reason of serving your own interests on the expense of every other Cypriot, not just GCs. Cypriots can by divided in a lot of categories, not just based on their language and religion, but also based on their political views, their gender, their class etc.

In the end of the day freedom for Cyprus means for Cypriots to be able to make democratic decisions. It doesn't mean that every single Cypriot should agree and it doesn't mean that every single group should agree.

with no regard for TC wishes was not an attempt to impose your will on ours is absurdity beyond reason.

To have done this historicaly is one thing but to demand today that it is your RIGHT to do this any time you feel like it is another entierly.

As long as the action taken respects the human rights of all Cypriots, the agreement of each and every group of people is not required. If you can not respect democratic choices and you equate them with "imposing" just because you happen to disagree, then you obviously have no idea what democracy means, or rather you pretend you don't know what it means trying to force on us something undemocratic so you can continue violating our democratic rights and have gains on our expense.

you are the ones who came to Cyprus to impose your will on us.

To classify me only as an ottoman invader and oppressor, in 1960 and still today and NOT a cypriot, or say I can only be regarded as a cypriot as long as a accept I am a 'different' cypriot to you (ie one that is a former invader and opressor) and thus my rights as a group are different to yours IS the cyprus problem.

You are the one who classifies yourself as a different kind of Cypriot. We are the exact same Cypriots we have been for 1000s of years, long before you came to our island. You came to our island, you didn't assimilate or integrate with the local population because being different and having privileges on our expense was better for you.

You can be as similar or as different as you want. That is your right. But insisting that your group of 18% should be equated with the 82% of the population IS the Cyprus problem. It is the same problem we had during Ottoman rule, and you want to maintain the same problem today.

The UN resolutions of self-determination have as an aim to correct this injustice.

Sure the UN declerations on the rights to self determination say you have rights to determine your own future but we do not, for we are not cypriots like you are, but in fact a 'different sort of cypriots' to you the real cypriots and are invaders and oppressors. Sure Piratis thats exactly what they say - if you live on planet madness as you aparently do.

Sure Erol, the UN declaration on the rights of self determination was instead created to give more privileges to the Colonists and not to free the people who have been oppressed by those Colonists for centuries. Are you on drugs mate?

If you are indeed a Cypriot then you should respect the democratic wishes of the Cypriot people as a whole. If you can't do this, then obviously you never became a Cypriot and you never integrated in the Cypriot society. And if this is the case you can only blame yourselves. You are the ones who should adjust and integrate with the local population, and not to expect the local population to instead change to integrate with a minority of newcomers.

The Ottomans created a Muslim minority here just like they create Muslim minorities in all other Christian territories they occupied. The same thing with White Imperialists who colonized Africa, Asia etc. The minorities created by these former Imperialists can have their human rights and maybe some minority rights, but definitely not the right to determine the destiny of those territories anymore. That is exactly the INTENT of the UN charters on the rights to self determination.

This is sheer nonsense. The idea that if 'native' SA has delcared that they wanted to express their rights to self determination as a people that explicitly defined those SA descended from former colonials are not a part of their people and are a different people, then that different people would have no rights themselves to self determination because they were former colonial rulers.

The nonsense is all coming from you mate. The peoples who were under the rule of one or another empire gained their self-determination as the people they have been before the Colonists arrived. They were not required to change their identities to accommodate the colonists. This is not a pre-requisite for the self-determination of the oppressed people, and of course the colonists under no circumstances had any right to maintain any part of the territory under colonial rule with the excuse that they are "different" and they can't fit with the locals.

If the colonists wanted to blend with the rest of the population it is them who had to change their identity to match the ones of the locals, not the other way around.

Did you seriously think that the intent of the UN charter for self-determination is to grand privileges to the settlers that the Imperialists brought on the territories they occupied?? Quite the CONTRARY.

No I seriously think that its INTENT is that peoples should be able to determine their own future, regardless of if historicaly they were 'invaders' or not.

Well, you got it wrong mate. The INTENT is to free the oppressed from the invaders, not to give to the invaders self-determination rights over the territories they previously invaded and occupied.

As far as you chose to express YOUR will to self determination in ways that exluded us, destroyed the idea of us be unitary despite our differences, then we had and have a valid seperate and equal right to determine OUR own future, and regardless of the different status you apply to one kind of cypriot and another.

We have been the same people that we have always been, it was up to you to integrate if you wanted. You choose to be different and separate because for centuries this separation suited you just fine. After 300+ years of oppressing us you remembered about unity a few decades after your empire lost control of Cyprus. No coincidence at all I believe.

If Cyprus stayed under Ottoman rule the GCs today would be a minority on this island and Cyprus would be part of Turkey. Just like it happened with the west and north coasts of Asia Minor. Please don't tell me that you would then advocate the independence of Cyprus with equality between the Turkish majority and the Greek minority. You wouldn't. In the same way you don't advocate such thing for Constantinople and all the other places that they had such fate.

The rights of an ethnic minority are not abused by the minority accepting to respect the decisions taken democratically by the population of a territory as a whole. This is what you believe, not me.

The rights of a minority as part of a unitary people are not abused by majority decisions when there is even marginal support from that minority.

The rights of a minority are specific, namely their human rights and some minority rights. If none of those rights are violated then the people as a whole can take any other democratic decision they want, regardless of the support that such decision has within each minority group.

However when the 'democratic will' is absolutely and totaly a function of them being different from each other because of the unchanagable physical characteristic of their ethnicity, then yes I believe such a 'democratic' imposition is an abuse of that minorites rights and actually a perversion of the meaning of democray as being people should have an effective say in the decisions that shape and control their lives.

All decisions can shape and control the lives of everybody. Nobody had the right to violate your human rights, and maybe some additional minority rights, but beyond that minorities have no right to impose their will by force and they are obligated to accepted the decisions of the population as a whole. The members of a minority can have as effective say as everybody else, since the vote of each Cypriot should count the same without racist discriminations.

In terms of a cyprus solution this mean I require equality of the communites ONLY in a very special and aytpical senario. Namely one where what defines how people vote is their differences as cypriots and not their similarites. If you can get even 15% support seperately from TC and a majority of all Cypriots then fine, majority rules is no issue to me. Hell if you can get even 10% support from TC and majority of all Cypriots then fine.

Do you know any other country which has such requirements for ethnic groups?

Personally I am fine with it, but I don't like double standards. Why such thing to be applied just in Cyprus, and not in Turkey as well for the Greek and other communities? And why just for the TCs in Cyprus and for all other ethnic groups as well?

However if you tell me when there is 0% support from TC for something in their own shared homeland, if there is a majority of all Cypriots you have the RIGHT to do this thing, as a valid expression of a UNITARY cypriot will, because you are more than us and or you are a different kind of cypriot than us, namely a real cypriot where as we are ex invader cypriots, then I simply tell you to get lost.

Such a demand in such situations is not a reflection of idea of democracy - that people should have an effective voice in the decisions that shape and control their lives and it is not a reflection of the dieal of self determination - that people should rule thmesleves and not be ruled by those that consider themselves 'other'. In my opinion it is simply a demand for the right to exercise ethnic tyranny.

Ethnic tyranny is what you exercised against us for centuries, what you do against us today, and what you want to continue doing against us in the future.

As I said before I would go along with that "10% support from TC" " in very special and atypical scenarios". But that is not what you demand from us now. This is not even what you were granted in 1960. You were granted a lot more back then, and today you demand even more, including 1/3rd of our island as a "Turkish State"!

And if you believe that this is the case then you should practice what you preach, give to the Greek minority in Turkey what you demand from us in Cyprus, and then come to demand the same for your own minority in Cyprus.

My views and beliefs are universal. Saying that I should make no attempt to argue MY OWN nations future should be based on such views and beliefs until I first make sure other nations that are NOT my own do so, is to use a favourite word of mine, nonsense.

And I would use my favorite word, excuses. Lame excuses. What you support for Cyprus is what suits you on the expense of every other Cypriot, not because you have some "universal beliefs".

You didn't answer the question again. I asked you about Constantinople, which has a Turkish majority and a Greek minority. This would be the equivalent (but in reverse) of what we have in Cyprus.

If it makes you happy I will repeat exactly what I did replacing Kurds with Turkish citizens of Greek descent. In any case what I said in the last paragraph make no mention of kurds. I'll say it agaion for you.

I believe Turkey can no more legitimately claiming to act in the name of a unitary turkish people when in fact support comes ONLY from ethnic turks and is universaly rejected by non ethnic turks , than the Cyprus can. Even a child could see that to say you act legitimately in the name of a unitary people when support is divided amongst that 'unitary' people absolutely and totaly based on some ethnic criteria that divides them, is a bogus claim.

Great, so if even a child can understand and accept your arguments which are so logical, and it is just us that we are the "stupid" and "evil" ones and can not understand them, then you should have no problem at all convincing the good and intelligent Turks about the validity of your arguments. So instead of wasting your time trying to convince the "stupid" and "evil" GCs, go and convince the intelligent and nice Turks. They will of course agree with you, and they will give to the Greek community in Turkey everything that you demand for your community in Cyprus. Then you can have the same exact thing for your community in Cyprus. Deal?

YOU do not get to chose and decide what rights I and my community / people can have.

You should have thought of that before you invaded my island in order to impose your rule over us. If you don't like the fact that you are a minority in Cyprus then feel free to go back to where you came from.

Same old same old. What rights we get, according to you, are defined by the fact that you are 'real' cypriots and thus get rights but we are not the same as that, but a different kind of cypriot to you and thus do not get these rights.

Wrong. All Cypriots should have the same exact rights. One person one vote. If you don't like this because TCs in Cyprus are a minority, then you can not blame us for it but only your own ancestors. If you can not accept the democratic decisions of the Cypriot people, but you can accept those of the Turks (which is apparent with the amounts of Settlers you are bringing in occupied Cyprus), then instead of trying to Turkify part of Cyprus by criminal means such as ethnic cleansing and land grab, you should instead move to Turkey, something which you have every right to do. If instead of moving 100s of thousands of mainland Turks to Cyprus you made the move back to Turkey, then all the problems would be solved. We would then have an even better peace than the one that the Turkish "peace operation" brought to Cyprus.

And as I have clearly shown what you got was not your right,

You are confusing 'clearly shown' with relentlessly repeated, which is not the same thing.

Clearly shown and clearly understood for anybody with at least an average IQ and no special reason in playing stupid.

because if you had such right then so would the Greeks of Constantinople and every other ethnic minority in every other territory.

And once more the argument that because not everyone everywhere, regardless of the vastly different circustance that lead them to where they are today, has their rights as peoples fully respected , we as TC can not have or expect ot have ours respected in our own homeland, is just about the weakest argument you could present.

The weakest argument is that the circumstances in Cyprus are so special and unique that make your own minority deserving 10 times as much privileges and powers as any other equivalent minority, on the expense of the human and democratic rights of the majority of the Cypriot people.

We have been Greeks long before you came to our island and if you didn't like this fact you shouldn't have come here.

Same old same old. You are the true cypriots and by your own defintion we are not real cypriots, and thus you can have rights but we can not and if we dont like we should just go away.

Again wrong, and also irrelevant. When you quote my answer you should also quote what I was answering to. You said "GC chose to define themselves as part of the Greek people" and I reminded you that this was the case since before you came to our island. If you didn't like to live in a Greek island with a mostly Greek population then you simply shouldn't have come here. It was your choice. You can't blame us now because we are Greek.

This is WHY we have a situation in Cyprus today that we do, compared with such a wonderous one that we could potentialy build if you were to stop this nonsense.

The nonsense is what you want to force in Cyprus. It is time to move on from the anachronistic Ottoman style systems and for you to finally accept democracy and equality of all Cypriots without racist discriminations and divisions and lame excuses from the past. All Cypriots should have the 100% of their human and democratic rights, including their right for their own properties.

And before you jump up and down screaming 'justifying attrocites, justifiying attrocites', such views as the ones you express above do NOT justify the events of 74 and the staus quo established any more than they justify the evtns in the priod 64-74 and that prior status quo but they DO explain them.

Everything can be explained by your own views, your refusal to accept democracy and equality of all Cypriots without racist discriminations, and your insistence in continuing to dividing the Cypriot people in the exact same way as in the times of the Ottoman rule, so you can continue to enjoy privileges and gains on the expense of every other Cypriot. I am sure that if we accepted your terms things would be great for you.

So stop trying to invent things to excuse your crimes. An ethnic minority does not have the right to determine where a territory should belong and where it shouldn't.

No where to I seek to excuse any crimes.

It is obvious that you do.

An ethnic minority does not have the right to determine where a terrirtory should belong and where is should not.

A people DOES have the right to determin their own future, even if that people is desended from former colonial rulers. As far as you as GC chose to exercise your right to self determination as part of the unitary Greek people , we had and have a rioght to exercise ours as a different , seperate and equal people. As far as you chose to exercise your right to self determination as part of a cypriot people that includes us , in actuality and not just 'word' we have no seperate right to self determination.

You didn't have any such right. If you had such right then so would the Greeks of Asia Minor and every other ethnic minority. You are just like every other ethnic minority and no different at all. It is very silly from you trying to present yourselves as the "special" ones.

Sure, every other country got it wrong, including Turkey, and you by using the army of Turkey you can blackmail the Cypriot people and force on us the "right" system. Your hypocrisy has no limits.

Not every country got it wrong but most having been formed prior to the codification of the rights of peoples to self determination have serious flaws it is true. There are however examples of countries that got it right and even some rarer examples of where old systems created before the codification of the rights of people to self determination have been corrected after the fact.

Nowhere an ethnic group without a separate territory of its own was given anything even remotely close to what you demand for yourselves in Cyprus.

You are an ethnic minority in Cyprus just like the Greeks of Turkey are and just like every other ethnic minority in every other country.

As far as you ACT in ways that are consistent with the concept and reality of a unitary Cypriot people I have not a single issue with being part of an ethnic minority. However when you chose to act in ways that totaly undermine the commonality that makes us a unitary people in order to impose your ethnic communal will on mine against my will

You are still an ethnic minority.

that is the point at which I say 'hang on in this regard we are NOT a unitary people, by YOUR actions'

We were never unitary people. From the day you first invaded us you were separate because you choose to be since in this way you could have gains on our expense. You never made any effort to integrate. Blame yourselves for it, not us. We have been Greeks since before you arrived to our island and we wanted what every Greek would naturally want. The freedom of our island from foreign Imperialists so we can be part of a free Greek Republic.

and thus it is the point where I stand up demand my right as a people , whose homeland is Cyprus, seperate from you as people BECAUSE you act as a people seperate from me.

No mate, our homeland is Cyprus and you are acting as people separate from us. When you first invaded our island if you wanted to be the same people as the locals then you had to became Greek and Christians. You didn't. You choose to be remain separate. Not our fault. You can't blame us because you are different from us.

So in Cyprus we have some Turkish/Muslim minority from the era of Ottoman rule. Same thing like in every other Greek territory that was formerly occupied by the Ottomans. Nothing special with your case at all.

We are not going to change who we are,

I do not ask you to change who you are. I do not even ask you to NOT chose to exercise your right to self determination as part of the Greek people if you want.

As part of the Cypriot people, who have been Greek long before you came to this island.

All I hope, for all our sakes, is that you can realise that if you chose to exercise your right to self determination as part of the Greek people

See above.

you can not legitimatly claim that is then the will of a unitary cypriot people in order to deny us our rights as a people that live in cyprus and are NOT part of the Greek people and do NOT want to express their right to self determination as part of the Greek people.

The rights that you have are your human rights and those of an equal Cypriot and EU citizen. I am not trying to deny to you even a single of your rights. On the contrary you are trying to deprive us not just from our democratic rights, but even from our basic human rights, in your effort to legitimize the ethnic cleansing and the land grab you committed against us, and officially Turkify the north part of our island.

That is all I hope, and in would seem to be to much to hope for in your case, to all our costs as far as I am concerned.

If "all you hoped" was for the GCs not to want to "express their right to self determination as part of the Greek people", then this is something you have already achieved. Cypriots in their majority do not want union with Greece today, and this union has been indirectly achieved through EU, a union which has the support of at least 10% of TCs (probably a lot more) who are able today to enjoy many of the benefits of our EU accession even though this union was opposed by the Turkish and TC leaderships.

Therefore obviously that is not all that you hope for, or the Cyprus problem would have been solved long time ago. It is now obvious that the main reason you wanted to prevent Cyprus uniting with Greece was not because you cared about creating some unitary Cypriot people, but on the contrary your aim was to isolate Cyprus so it would be easier for you to bring back the divisions that existed since Ottoman rule, and make them even deeper, so you could have as much gains on our expense as possible.