Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

Whatever you might think of Turkey's actions as a guarantor,there is no clause in the agreement which says that right would be extinguished IF one side is not happy with the guarantor's actions...So the right exists until it is removed by international agreements,and cannot be done unilaterally...

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle17.htm

Wishful thinking,GR!
Show me a "credible" link from the UN where it says the guarantor's right of Turkey has been extinguished...Go on...I dare you...The link above is a path to a biased and deluded individual's site...No sensible person would take it seriously...

Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instru ... 1_1969.pdf

But where does it say that Turkey's guarantor powers have been extinguished??? Only in your head I am afraid...
And while you are at it,find me a credible link which says the TCs rights in the RoC have been withdrawn due to their absence...

Article 60: Termination or suspension of the operation of a treaty as a consequence of its breach

[fwnh]

that's really funny coming from a person that can't justify his sayings and hopes repeating the same words of fear would keep people away from really facing the problem, and in so getting what you want as an individual

[erolz3]

Article 60: Termination or suspension of the operation of a treaty as a consequence of its breach

Did you read past article 60 or just stop as soon as you found something useful ?

Didi you for example reach article 65 ?

"Procedure to be followed"

"1.A party which, under the provisions of the present Convention, invokes either a defect in its consent to be bound by a treaty or a ground for impeaching the validity of a treaty, terminating it, withdrawing from it or suspending its operation, must notify the other parties of its claim. The
notification shall indicate the measure proposed to be taken with respect to the treaty and the reasons therefor."

Has the RoC followed these procedures ? Do you have evidence that they have done so ?

Maybe the RoC has not done so because of article 4 ?

Article 4
Non-retroactivity of the present Convention
Without prejudice to the application of any rules set forth in the present Convention to which treaties would be subject under international law independently of the Convention, the Convention applies only to treaties which are concluded by States after the entry into force of the present Convention with regard to such States.

Pretty fundamental of ALL law that, non retroactivity.

[Malapapa]

If the reality was only how we would like it <MP...Life would be much easier...Do you really believe you can solve Cyprus problem via the courts??? Go for your life...Another Ostrich bites the dust!!!

You're sounding more and more like Viewpoint.

Do you have any better ideas about how we remove invaders and outlaws from the ancestral homeland? War is not an option.

[erolz3]

Do you have any better ideas about how we remove invaders and outlaws from the ancestral homeland?

Well this is just a suggestion and I realise it may be too 'radical' for you but perhaps you should think about looking at how your actions, behaviours ideas and beliefs, past and present have and do contributed to a situation where the very people who could help you achieve this are not rushing to do so.

Of course if you believe that the only reason these people who could help are reticant to do so is simply because they are thieves and want only to gain on your loss, then such self reflection is of course entirely unecessary.

[Malapapa]

Do you have any better ideas about how we remove invaders and outlaws from the ancestral homeland?

Well this is just a suggestion and I realise it may be too 'radical' for you but perhaps you should think about looking at how your actions, behaviours ideas and beliefs, past and present have and do contributed to a situation where the very people who could help you achieve this are not rushing to do so.

You're assuming I haven't. I, personally, have given all this a lot of thought, including why TCs aren't willing or able to rush to join the struggle.

Of course if you believe that the only reason these people who could help are reticant to do so is simply because they are thieves and want only to gain on your loss, then such self reflection is of course entirely unecessary.

What would convince you to join the struggle for justice and liberation for all the people of Cyprus?

[Get Real!]

Didi you for example reach article 65 ?

"Procedure to be followed"

Yes, I was aware of that.

Maybe the RoC has not done so because of article 4 ?

Good point Erol, but I have since dug up three more new avenues to explore including…

1. The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties between States and International Organizations or Between International Organizations

2. The International Law Commission

3. The Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties

There is a lot to be studied here so please accept a break from this debate for now…

[erolz3]

What would convince you to join the struggle for justice and liberation for all the people of Cyprus?

For me personaly first and foremost an acceptance from GC that the achievment of enosis was not a right of GC such that it allowed for and justifed that no account at all should or needed to be given to the TC in Cyprus and what they wanted. An acceptance that for GC to chose to forgoe enosis in favour indepdance did not have to bee an expression of a denail of their will as CYpriots but could have been an expression of their exultation for the concept and ideal of a truely unitary cypriot people bonded in a commonality that was greater than their differences as Cypriots.

That would take me personaly to about 70% opf the way there. Everything else , the following 30% would hopefully flow relatively easily from there for me.

Things that help and would help (imo)

Every Charalambous Louca whatshisname (sorry am terrible with names) of the Cyprus mail, every Dhrouitis whathisname, every bannaniot, in short every GC that shows to me that there are GC who can see more than just our 'crimes'

A truth and reconcilliation comittee

A feeling that many GC do not just dismiss my concerns out of hand and immediately as being lies and manipulations that can only be motivated by a desire to gain personaly and materialy at their expense as a community.

Things that do NOT help.

Every denial of historical reality , from Papa T's 'no TC died at the hands of TC from 1963 onwards' (I paraphrase, can get the exact quote and link if you like) to ORacles whittering here.

A feeling that many GC do just dismiss my concerns out of hand and immediately as being lies and manipulations that can only be motivated by a desire to gain personaly and materialy at their expense as a community.

Being told I am an oppressor and invader and not a cypriot.

Being told that if I do not willingly give up my indentity and cultural background and assimilate into GC culture totaly, I am by defintion not a cypriot and should go away.

Being told to go away.

Being told that a bigger factor in why so many TC fled their homes in 64 was Turkish / TMT / TC violence and threat of violence against them and not GC violence and threat of violence.

I could go on but I am sure you have the idea. Thats all off the top of my head so to speak. Its actually an important question I think and I will try and give it the time and consideration it deserves as such and maybe post again.

[fwnh]

I see your point of view erolz.. it's people that keep posting links of UN referendums and shit ,cause they think that makes them seem educated, when in fact with their demands they are breaking every single HUMANITARIAN treaty the UN has ever signed and then go on to call the UN enemies and a puppet of the USA... what ever serves them at the time.
They forget how many TC's were murdered by the GC's, how the leaders of the time did exactly what Milosevic did in bosnia... trying to force the TC's out of cyprus by murdering them and fellow gc's that even sat in the same 'kafenes' (cafes) as them, how these leaders used people like Sampson to spread fear and destroy families, raid whole villages, steal, murder, rape... unfortunately for you, you lost your right to defend your position based on that when the turkish army did the exact same thing when invading cyprus. Hate only gives birth to more Hate

""A feeling that many GC do just dismiss my concerns out of hand and immediately as being lies and manipulations that can only be motivated by a desire to gain personaly and materialy at their expense as a community. ""

Just by knowing that ...their words should not make you despice the truth, or the fair dialogue between us, for some of us are still free spirits that trully wish our country to be reunited and free

[fwnh]

by Dhruitis i believe you are reffering to Makarios Drousiotis? the author of 'Two attempts and a murder' ? i hope this doesn't get on as a promotion, but i would trully advice everyone to read it because it is not a book based on the authors views but rather a series of evidence drawn from the KYP (cyprus intelligence office) archives. It was an eye-opener for many of my friends