Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Erol, I apologize that in 2007 I misleadingly used an RoC document through which to capitalize from a referenced section of an earlier UN statement, in my arguments, and hope that you will forgive me!

If you mean you appologise for back then presenting a RoC written document as being one written by the UN and at the time absolutley refusing to accept the truth, then I totaly accept your belated appology and respect you making it.

How did you make the judgement of what was the truth?

Simply deciding the RoC was 100% biased and the UN 100% impartial, for each and every statement without a full dissection, is foolish. Are you that foolish, erolz3?

[georgios100]

Deniz, by my standards this “Thomas Blom Hansen” is not credible evidence so I would never use any of his material against the TMT, and by the same token I wouldn’t think much of any of his EOKA allegations.

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle01.htm

George makes his thread even less appealing by failing to quote the sections he wants to highlight and that's the main reason why it's not going anywhere. Asking readers to just read many pages of text never leads to a meaningful discussion evidenced by the lack of responses.

Out of interest why do you not you not think he is credible (I say this without even reading his text) just interested to know what your criteria is?

I was on the Internet "Google-ing" TMT and found a few entries.


I posted this link for information purposes only. Understanding what was going on back then might help explain why we are in the current situation today.

Not sure if the writer of this book is a "reliable source". Certain segments contained in these pages appear "sketchy" at best.

Never intended to provoke anyone on this board.

Georgios100

Georgios, Hi.

I hope you have had a nice Sunday.

The reason I picked on this subject was that for the last few weeks, the forum members were discussing/debating what the aim of EOKA was (apart from liberation from the colonial powers). That they fought for ENOSIS was on occasion vehemently denied, though some said a few EOKA members may have fought for ENOSIS.

I am 65 years old and remember very well the anti British demonstrations in Kyrenia together with its slogans for EOKA and ENOSIS (1965-57). The shouting of the slogans still ring in my ears. I have seen the Greek Cypriots rioting and fighting with the British soldiers. I remember the tear gas, the gymnasio students, the populace all chanting EOKA and ENOSIS. The funny thing of this here was that I too was shuting with them; I did not have a clue what these words meant till I went home and asked. There I was told that the Greek Cypriots were chanting for union with Greece. No mention was made of independence from colonial rule (as far as I remember).

That is why the authors statement on page 105 aroused me.
Thanks to Erolz3, we also have the UN quote too.

My original thread is this one http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28554

The topic was and still is the TMT status in Cyprus, back then and today.
EOKA is mentioned in the text but really TMT is in question here.

As always, the thread was hijacked by "hardliners", without getting any real answers about the role of TMT.

I was 4-5 years old when the curfews were on every night (hardly remember actual facts but I can recall the fear on my mother's face...).
We had a British patrol unit stationed outside our home at the corner of Ploutonos & Platonos intersection all night (Stavros, Famagusta). One morning I saw a pool of blood on the sidewalk. Later that day we heard about an alleged EOKA member killed by the Brits on that spot. British soldiers were tough and sometimes ruthless.

Younger members of this board were not around during the British occupation. It wasn't easy. The fight was to get those Brits out.
Testimonies of people who lived thru those awful times should be respected by the younger posters of the board.

Georgios100

[erolz3]

How did you make the judgement of what was the truth?

Simply deciding the RoC was 100% biased and the UN 100% impartial, for each and every statement without a full dissection, is foolish. Are you that foolish, erolz3?

The issue was Oracle, who wrote this document

http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/a99f ... endocument

At that time GR maintained it was written by the UN. I argued that it was in fact written by the RoC and submitted to the UN.

The truth in this regard was totaly black and white and absolute, and nothing to do with opinion. It was simply a matter of fact.

So who is being foolish here ?

[erolz3]

Yeah, well that’s the problem when he’s got you by the balls… he just LOVES to squeeze and absolutely refuses to let go!

It only because you have such a fine example of Cypriot balls that I am so reluctant to let go

[erolz3]

The topic was and still is the TMT status in Cyprus, back then and today.

I think the 'status' of TMT back then and today was in many ways broadly similar to that of EOKA.

The leaderships of each had clearly defined political objectives and were from the more 'extremist' end of the spectrum. Both used violence against their own communites as well as the other to create fear and intimidate in pursuit of these aims. Both contained indivduals within them that were essentialy 'honourable people' with little or no interest in politics or political goals that saw their participation in terms of defense and protection of their communites rights and physical existance. Both also contained in them indivduals who were little more than thugs and criminals and for whom each organistion was simply a means for them to enjoy the exercise of power over others through use of violence fear and intimidation and get away with it in ways they could not in the absense of these organisations.

Both organisations continued to exert influence and control in Cyprus past 1960 and past any 'ending' of the organisations officaly. Neither imo has any clearly seeable or identifiable influence on daily lives of GC or TC today, but both cast a kind of shadow over each community, and this continues to diminsihing over time.

[Piratis]

The political objective of EOKA did not involve any kind of human rights violations.

On the contrary the political objective of TMT, partition, went against basic human rights, namely "Article 9: No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile." and "Article 17: (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

Therefore the political objectives of the two organizations can not be equated.

[BirKibrisli]

The political objective of EOKA did not involve any kind of human rights violations.

On the contrary the political objective of TMT, partition, went against basic human rights, namely "Article 9: No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile." and "Article 17: (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

Therefore the political objectives of the two organizations can not be equated.

>>>>>>>give it a rest,Piratis ,for God's sake...The political objective of Eoka was to give all of Cyprus away to a foreign power...The political objective of TMT was to make sure part of that country remained under Turkish control...But your demands came first,so blame yourself for all that followed..Take your head out of the sand,your mouth must be getting pretty full by now...

[Piratis]

The political objective of EOKA did not involve any kind of human rights violations.

On the contrary the political objective of TMT, partition, went against basic human rights, namely "Article 9: No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile." and "Article 17: (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

Therefore the political objectives of the two organizations can not be equated.

>>>>>>>give it a rest,Piratis ,for God's sake...The political objective of Eoka was to give all of Cyprus away to a foreign power...The political objective of TMT was to make sure part of that country remained under Turkish control...But your demands came first,so blame yourself for all that followed..Take your head out of the sand,your mouth must be getting pretty full by now...

For the vast majority of the Cypriot people Greece is not a "foreign power". Foreign powers were the Ottomans, the British etc, who imposed their rule on our island against the will of the Cypriot people. The same with Turkey today, which does not have the support of the majority of Cypriots (which is why she had to ehtnically cleanse them).

What came first, since you want to play this game again, was your invasion in 1571 and the subsequent oppression of the Cypriot people for 3+ centuries until 1878. There were no problems between Greeks and Turks in Cyprus before that. You started it all. Since then we are simply trying to gain our freedom from those who came to our island to oppress us. I think it is time for you to give this "who started it" game a rest. The sequence of events are very clearly recorded in history and there is no need to keep repeating them.

What it is more than clear is that the political objective of union with Greece did not involve human rights violations, but the political objective of partition it did.

[denizaksulu]

Deniz, by my standards this “Thomas Blom Hansen” is not credible evidence so I would never use any of his material against the TMT, and by the same token I wouldn’t think much of any of his EOKA allegations.

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle01.htm

George makes his thread even less appealing by failing to quote the sections he wants to highlight and that's the main reason why it's not going anywhere. Asking readers to just read many pages of text never leads to a meaningful discussion evidenced by the lack of responses.

Out of interest why do you not you not think he is credible (I say this without even reading his text) just interested to know what your criteria is?

I was on the Internet "Google-ing" TMT and found a few entries.


I posted this link for information purposes only. Understanding what was going on back then might help explain why we are in the current situation today.

Not sure if the writer of this book is a "reliable source". Certain segments contained in these pages appear "sketchy" at best.

Never intended to provoke anyone on this board.

Georgios100

Georgios, Hi.

I hope you have had a nice Sunday.

The reason I picked on this subject was that for the last few weeks, the forum members were discussing/debating what the aim of EOKA was (apart from liberation from the colonial powers). That they fought for ENOSIS was on occasion vehemently denied, though some said a few EOKA members may have fought for ENOSIS.

I am 65 years old and remember very well the anti British demonstrations in Kyrenia together with its slogans for EOKA and ENOSIS (1965-57). The shouting of the slogans still ring in my ears. I have seen the Greek Cypriots rioting and fighting with the British soldiers. I remember the tear gas, the gymnasio students, the populace all chanting EOKA and ENOSIS. The funny thing of this here was that I too was shuting with them; I did not have a clue what these words meant till I went home and asked. There I was told that the Greek Cypriots were chanting for union with Greece. No mention was made of independence from colonial rule (as far as I remember).

That is why the authors statement on page 105 aroused me.
Thanks to Erolz3, we also have the UN quote too.

My original thread is this one http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28554

The topic was and still is the TMT status in Cyprus, back then and today.
EOKA is mentioned in the text but really TMT is in question here.

As always, the thread was hijacked by "hardliners", without getting any real answers about the role of TMT.

I was 4-5 years old when the curfews were on every night (hardly remember actual facts but I can recall the fear on my mother's face...).
We had a British patrol unit stationed outside our home at the corner of Ploutonos & Platonos intersection all night (Stavros, Famagusta). One morning I saw a pool of blood on the sidewalk. Later that day we heard about an alleged EOKA member killed by the Brits on that spot. British soldiers were tough and sometimes ruthless.

Younger members of this board were not around during the British occupation. It wasn't easy. The fight was to get those Brits out.
Testimonies of people who lived thru those awful times should be respected by the younger posters of the board.

Georgios100

I do thank you for that thread Georgios100. The actions of the TMT is nothing new. They certainly on occasion were no angels.

My eye caught the sentence on p. 105 and I used it for the other argument.

I know the British favoured the TC community, as they were not seen as the protagonists in Cyprus. In 1956 my guardian who was a teacher (uncle) was posted to teach in Kophinou. We had loaded our truck on a lorry and set off towards Nicosia. At Boghazi, there was a check point of British soldiers searching for weaponry and bombs. The queues were a mile long. I remember the July heat. The British soldiers recognised us as being TC and let us through. I was a bit perplexed, but the women in the truck were delighted.
When the opportunity arrived the soldiers would not hesitate and steal money from villagers. Including our house in our home village of Anglissidhes.

[georgios100]

Deniz, by my standards this “Thomas Blom Hansen” is not credible evidence so I would never use any of his material against the TMT, and by the same token I wouldn’t think much of any of his EOKA allegations.

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle01.htm

George makes his thread even less appealing by failing to quote the sections he wants to highlight and that's the main reason why it's not going anywhere. Asking readers to just read many pages of text never leads to a meaningful discussion evidenced by the lack of responses.

Out of interest why do you not you not think he is credible (I say this without even reading his text) just interested to know what your criteria is?

I was on the Internet "Google-ing" TMT and found a few entries.


I posted this link for information purposes only. Understanding what was going on back then might help explain why we are in the current situation today.

Not sure if the writer of this book is a "reliable source". Certain segments contained in these pages appear "sketchy" at best.

Never intended to provoke anyone on this board.

Georgios100

Georgios, Hi.

I hope you have had a nice Sunday.

The reason I picked on this subject was that for the last few weeks, the forum members were discussing/debating what the aim of EOKA was (apart from liberation from the colonial powers). That they fought for ENOSIS was on occasion vehemently denied, though some said a few EOKA members may have fought for ENOSIS.

I am 65 years old and remember very well the anti British demonstrations in Kyrenia together with its slogans for EOKA and ENOSIS (1965-57). The shouting of the slogans still ring in my ears. I have seen the Greek Cypriots rioting and fighting with the British soldiers. I remember the tear gas, the gymnasio students, the populace all chanting EOKA and ENOSIS. The funny thing of this here was that I too was shuting with them; I did not have a clue what these words meant till I went home and asked. There I was told that the Greek Cypriots were chanting for union with Greece. No mention was made of independence from colonial rule (as far as I remember).

That is why the authors statement on page 105 aroused me.
Thanks to Erolz3, we also have the UN quote too.

My original thread is this one http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28554

The topic was and still is the TMT status in Cyprus, back then and today.
EOKA is mentioned in the text but really TMT is in question here.

As always, the thread was hijacked by "hardliners", without getting any real answers about the role of TMT.

I was 4-5 years old when the curfews were on every night (hardly remember actual facts but I can recall the fear on my mother's face...).
We had a British patrol unit stationed outside our home at the corner of Ploutonos & Platonos intersection all night (Stavros, Famagusta). One morning I saw a pool of blood on the sidewalk. Later that day we heard about an alleged EOKA member killed by the Brits on that spot. British soldiers were tough and sometimes ruthless.

Younger members of this board were not around during the British occupation. It wasn't easy. The fight was to get those Brits out.
Testimonies of people who lived thru those awful times should be respected by the younger posters of the board.

Georgios100

I do thank you for that thread Georgios100. The actions of the TMT is nothing new. They certainly on occasion were no angels.

My eye caught the sentence on p. 105 and I used it for the other argument.

I know the British favoured the TC community, as they were not seen as the protagonists in Cyprus. In 1956 my guardian who was a teacher (uncle) was posted to teach in Kophinou. We had loaded our truck on a lorry and set off towards Nicosia. At Boghazi, there was a check point of British soldiers searching for weaponry and bombs. The queues were a mile long. I remember the July heat. The British soldiers recognised us as being TC and let us through. I was a bit perplexed, but the women in the truck were delighted.
When the opportunity arrived the soldiers would not hesitate and steal money from villagers. Including our house in our home village of Anglissidhes.

Nice to hear from you denizaksulu,

Your stories and mine are not in the books. I encourage other CF members to post their stories so we can all read "first hand testimonies" of the situation back on those dark days and years. The colonial occupier wanted to enforce it's rule any way possible. There is no "gentleman" Brit soldier. They were animals, ruled with an iron fist. No respect whatsoever for human rights.

Arrests were a daily spectacle. I saw innocent Cypriots being beaten in public, on the street, in the clear view of their wives and children. Some of the arrested "troublemakers" never to be seing again.

This inhuman treatment of the population fuelled even more resistance and up rise. EOKA kept on gaining momentum. So did TMT. Freedom was the only way out. Makarios, a charismatic leader, was the political part of the uprising. Grivas was the military one. ENOSIS was controversial. Many of us had no idea of what this really meant, we just wanted to defeat the Brits. Any way out sounded a lot better than no way out. There was no Internet back then. Very few telephone devices available. The newspapers & media was controlled and or sensored by the Brits. Communication between the Masses was primitive. EOKA and TMT got their messages across in secret, mouth to mouth, door to door. It was easier for them to gain trust of their respective community members. A sort of a brainwash. We didn't know any better. For us EOKA meant freedom so we followed.

Georgios100