Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz3]

Oh, now it's some random nameless group oppressing another random group with nothing in coming between the specific group members? What a joke!

Don't be silly Oracle. I never said that.

Did the two groups not have definitive identities? One, the native population (Black/African) and the other the Colonialists?

No the identities where white SA and black SA. It is YOU that choses to classify them not as two distinct groups of SA but as one group that is SA and one that is not.

Here's a simple example of how wrong you are:

He was expelled from college for helping to organize a strike against the white colonial rule of the institution. He then became involved in other protests against the white colonial rule.

http://library.thinkquest.org/TQ0312702 ... andela.htm

Not only that, but the ANC initially even used the term "Native":

African National Congress

South African political party and black nationalist organization. Founded in 1912 (as the South African Native National Congress), the ANC was long dedicated to the elimination of apartheid. In response to government massacres of demonstrators at Sharpeville (1960) and Soweto (1976), it carried out acts of sabotage and guerrilla warfare.

Source: Britannica [/quote]

You are being silly again Oracle. When SA was under colonial rule then cleary the issue was one of 'foreign' rule in SA and was clearly defined as such. Once thos foriegn colonial rule had ended the issue was not one of native vs foriegners but one of one group of SA oppressing the other.

This is why in

1955 the ANC adopted the Freedom Charter which reaffirmed its commitment to an inclusive form of nationalism, proclaiming ‘that South Africa belongs to all who live in it’.

The ANC EXPLICITLY chose to define the issue of aparthied not in terms of native SA vs foreigners. They did this in 1955. Yet YOU chose to portray aparthied in terms they expliclty rejected because such terms were a block on the dream of an INCLUSIVE SA free of aparthied.

My point remians the same and as valid as it ever was. You CHOSE to define aparthied in SA as a struggle between South Africans (to you the natives) and foreigners. The ANC on the other hand explicity rejected such a notion and exactly because it undermined and destroyed the possibility of an inculsive SA without aparthied. In the same way as defining the Cyprus problem as one between 'native' Cypriots (GC) and 'foriegners' (TC) undrmines and destroys the possibility of an inclusive and better future for cyprus.

The ANC were wise in their decleration made in 1955, you would do well to look at and understand that wisdom imo.

Your tacit approval of Apartheid in Cyprus contradicts any fawning you may now attempt at a humane solution. You have (inadvertantly) demonstrated how you know Ankara applies Apartheid in Cyprus. Your fiasco at trying to divert discussion from a call to its dissolution does not bode well for Humanity if Turkey is not tackled about this practice!

I give no tacit approval to what you call 'apartheid' in Cyprus. Nor do I accept that the term is the correct one. It is used by you for its emotional impact and not its accuracy or because it brings a better understanding. Turkey did parition Cyprus in 1974 but that is not the same as aparthied in SA was. Aparthied was a legal framework that enshrined in law the seperation of one part of a single state from another based on race and not a parition of the state in two seperate entites.

[Oracle]

The rest of your post is junk since you are basically backtracking.

... I give no tacit approval to what you call 'apartheid' in Cyprus. Nor do I accept that the term is the correct one.

Apartheid has ended in SA. But unfortunately the practice of Apartheid has not ended everywhere. Strikingly obvious to me in Cyprus, faced with an insurmountable barrier telling me I am not allowed Human Rights as a Greek Cypriot if I venture into the north of my country.

So, the term, "Apartheid", unfortunately, is still alive and strong and imposed in Cyprus by Ankara.

The term, once hoped would be laid to rest, can still apply to similar circumstances anywhere else in the world and with different groups of people.

You have not produced one convincing argument why the term Apartheid does not apply to what Turkey is imposing, with its troops and policies, in Cyprus!

(Except that the crime Ankara commits, is even worse because of the recolonisation!)

[erolz3]

The rest of your post is junk since you are basically backtracking.

I am highlighting how the way you even today chose to define the struggle in SA against aparthied as having been between SAs (who you call the natives) and 'foreigners' was a notion rejected by the ANC themselves explicitly 55 years ago and for very good reason.

You have not produced one convincing argument why the term Apartheid does not apply to what Turkey is imposing, with its troops and policies, in Cyprus!

I have not produced any convincing arguments on the above because it has not been the issues I chose to make in this thread. What I was doing is explained above.

The very notion of explaining to you why you today as a GC do not live under the kind of opression that the oppressed of SA lived under under aparthied because Turkey, despite having done much, has not done to you what the oppresive forces in SA did to them is absurd and an insult to those SA that did live under such oppresion.

Clearly you are unrepeantant in how you chose to define the struggle against aparthied in SA in divisive and excluionary terms that the ANC themselves rejected.

Just as clearly you are more interested in rouble rousing rehtoric and the use of emotive terms to descibe the situation in Cyprus than any true understanding of what happened and why.

I suspect these two things are not unrelated.

[Oracle]

.... The very notion of explaining to you why you today as a GC do not live under the kind of opression that the oppressed of SA lived under under aparthied because Turkey, despite having done much, has not done to you what the oppresive forces in SA did to them is absurd and an insult to those SA that did live under such oppresion..

And you insult us!

In the 21st century to continue to racially segregate us from parts of our homeland, with 43,000 heavily armed foreign troops, killing our people for lowering flags or daring to set foot where they are deemed unwanted ... by Turk-TCs ... the previous pseudo-compatriots!

You don't like my rhetoric? Well I don't like your bombs and bullets!

[erolz3]

You don't like my rhetoric? Well I don't like your bombs and bullets!

You rhetoric, you distortions, re writing of history, exagerations and the like are things that you as an indivdual chose to do and are entirely under your direct control.

'my' bombs and bullets as you put it are not my choices as an indivdual or under my my direct control.

I want an end to the situation we have in Cyprus today. Your indivdual choice to deal in rhetoric rather than understanding of what really happened and why is a block on finding a way out of this mess. In that regard your actions by your own choice perpetuate the mess.

If you want to play rhetoric games carry on. I can play the same games if they are the only terms you want play by.

You don't like my bombs and bullets ?

How about I dont like the fact that 'you' sent a group of armed thugs, almost certainly under the orders and control of your minister of the interior, to take my innocent civilian non political uncle from his place of work in a bank in broad daylight and in front of many witnesses, murder him and dump his body in a well 10 years before 'my bombs and bullets' stopped you doing such things.

We can all play the rehtoric game Oracle but it gets us nowhere. You CHOOSE to play it. Take responsibility for your OWN actions as an indivdual.

[Oracle]

You don't like my rhetoric? Well I don't like your bombs and bullets!

You rhetoric, you distortions, re writing of history, exagerations and the like are things that you as an indivdual chose to do and are entirely under your direct control.

'my' bombs and bullets as you put it are not my choices as an indivdual or under my my direct control.

I want an end to the situation we have in Cyprus today. Your indivdual choice to deal in rhetoric rather than understanding of what really happened and why is a block on finding a way out of this mess. In that regard your actions by your own choice perpetuate the mess.

If you want to play rhetoric games carry on. I can play the same games if they are the only terms you want play by.

You don't like my bombs and bullets ?

How about I dont like the fact that 'you' sent a group of armed thugs, almost certainly under the orders and control of your minister of the interior, to take my innocent civilian non political uncle from his place of work in a bank in broad daylight and in front of many witnesses, murder him and dump his body in a well 10 years before 'my bombs and bullets' stopped you doing such things.

We can all play the rehtoric game Oracle but it gets us nowhere. You CHOOSE to play it. Take responsibility for your OWN actions as an indivdual.

Thank you for demonstrating how the experts do it.

Simple language seems to jar with you. But, in the end highlighting what Turkey is really doing in Cyprus is paramount.

Apartheid was never acceptable and even less so in this day and age. Most people cannot believe this crime is still perpetuated in Europe, in Cyprus, from as far as Ankara.

Your displeasure at my (and others) choosing this apt description of how ethnic cleansing is maintained by Turkey in Cyprus is proof of how shocking the situation really is. What Turkey is doing to the GCs .. not only to the 200,000 GC refugees but every Greek and every Greek Cypriot is Apartheid. About 10 Million people in the EU are segregated out of nearly half of Cyprus, by Turkish policy.

The crime of course is also about the indecent standards passed on to your next generation .... nurtured to continue oppressing GCs. Your perpetual legacy going back centuries. Stop the slavery cycle. Stop Apartheid now.

[Gasman]

Everything I read about APARTHEID says it 'divided people up by COLOUR'. All you GCs and TCs are the same colour aren't you?

[Oracle]

Everything I read about APARTHEID says it 'divided people up by COLOUR'. All you GCs and TCs are the same colour aren't you?

How simple is your world?

Read more, expand your outlook. Learn to apply general principles to solving problems ....

Apartheid is the vehicle by which groups of people are kept apart, usually one assigned to a lower status and restricted in HR/freedoms (e.g. movement).

Do you need me to point out who in Cyprus is prevented, by virtue of their race, from returning to their homes by 43,000 Turkish troops?

[Gasman]

Oracle my world is just fine. You are the last person on earth I'd take advice from. Perish the thought I could end up something like you come across as being!

And I am not talking about WHO in Cyprus is being stopped from doing whatever (can't be arsed with all the bolding, colouring and enlarging of type font you seem to have to employ to get your manic points across)'

I am just talking about all the definitions of 'apartheid' I am reading on the net!

You really do manage to post in a fashion that conjures up a vision of you snarling, jabbering in tongues, foaming at the mouth and tearing your hair out. Have you been like this for many years? Or is it just since the last round of 'talks' on the Cyp problem?

Have you always just ranted on cyber forums? Or have you taken any physical steps or got involved in a 'hands on' way to right what you see as wrongs? (Daft question really - you spend too much time on here to do anything else much I'd say)

Perhaps you should go for a little lie down?

[YFred]

... And I am not talking about WHO in Cyprus is being stopped from doing whatever ...

Then fuck off out of the Cyprus Problem section because that is ALL we care about here!

That told you Gasman, now you are in for it. You will be hounded off the forum by the baskevillians.
Not even god or the devil will be able to help you now.