Cyprus-Forum.com

[Malapapa]

After 1960, the numerically even smaller and economically even weaker Maronite, Armenian and Latin communities weren't treated as even 3rd or 4th class citizens as constitutionally they ceased to exist.

Nor do I believe they were treated as 2nd class citizens before 1960 to the same degree as TC frequently were, for whilst not being Greek they did share a common religion and they were not pecieved as and tought through the Greek education system and Greek church as having been the 'enemies of hellenism' as the TC were and nor did they represent a block on the GC desire for enosis because of their numbers and because helenisation did not mean to them as Cypriots what it meant to TC as CYpriots. Even then and still today they have issue as a community within the RoC with regards to maintaing their culture and heritage, just not the same degree as those suffered by TC in general pre 74.

They have their issues, they face discrimination, they were certainly shown no consideration when they were lumped in with the "Greek community" in 1960. My point is, if we're going to show concern for minorities we must acknowledge that the constitution, by giving privileges to one minority, ended up wiping out all the others, and was inherently racist as a result.

I agree that the 60's agreements contained weaknesses and flaws and as a compromise they did not satisfy either party wholly.

However I share the view of that expressed by Professor Dr. Ernst Forsthoff of Hiedlberg University who was appointed as president of the Supreme Consitutional Court in Cyprus and who resigned in the face of Makarios' refusal to recnogise the legal ruling of this court when he said

Every consitution can have its peculiar problems. There is no consitution in the world which has not got its particular difficulties and problems. This is primarily a question of goodwill. If there is goodwill a constituion can be implemented and this Constituion (RoC in 60's) is capable of being implemented.

I do accpet that the 60's consitution can be considered racist if one wish to do so but no more so than the idea of enosis is racist in the same sense.

Well in the same way that the enosis aspiration is now dead, so too must the apartheid system represented by the 1960's constitution, which we must be mindful of in any new BBF so as to ensure there is no perpetuation of this racism.

[Malapapa]

Enosis? Who mentioned enosis. I was talking about independence.

Well I believe that Indpedance could have been achieved by Cypriots, without a resort to violence and almost certainly without the need for the kind of protections for the TC that the 60's agreements contained IF indepedance had of been the sincere objective of the GC community and not just a means to an end of enosis (a secure bastion from which the Greeks people of Cyprus can achieve their goal, in Makarios type language). Unfortunately for all of us subsequently this was NOT the case was it ?

Like I said before, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

"Complete independence and freedom" was achieved in 2004 with EU accession, which the Republic secured for its entire territory (with the acquis sadly suspended in the north, pending the departure of controlling troops from Turkey).

Actually accession to the EU requires seeding of significant aspects of a states sovreignty and full indepedance to an entity large that the state itself. Not that that is a bad thing, but its kind of ironic to say complete indepedance and freedome (for Cypriots) was achieved when we gave up our sovriegn rights to x, y and z. At least it seems so to me.

This sovereignty is given up willingly because, for Cypriots, it secures freedom from dominance from unwanted foreign invaders. Remember, this is a people which has endured centuries of occupation and exploitation by whoever was the regional power of the time. (Only Britain and now seemingly Turkey seem to have a problem with this giving up of sovereignty; they still have colonial delusions).

[erolz3]

Well in the same way that the enosis aspiration is now dead, so too must the apartheid system represented by the 1960's constitution, which we must be mindful of in any new BBF so as to ensure there is no perpetuation of this racism.

The problem is that whilst enosis is dead, the underpinning belief behind it, namely that GC acting not as Cypriots but as Greeks have every right to impose anything they like on TC in Cyprus with no regard for TC wishes, either because there are more of them or because they are the 'real' cypriots is certainly not dead as far as I can see.

That remains a very real and current issue for me and a concern for me as a TC as evidence by many of the GC posters here.

Whilst I hear what you say about avoiding racism in any future solution and have much sympathy for the ideal things are not quite so black and white to me. Positive discrimination is racist yet I believe in all sorts of situations it can and is an approriate means of addressing real issues.

Given the history of Cyprus I do not believe we can get to the ideal of a unitary state in Cyprus where it really does not matter if you are GC, TC or any other sort of Cypriot, from where we are today without some some sort of 'transition period' where the TC have a degree of political equality as a community. Whether you want to consider such a necessary form of 'positive discrimination' or an expression of TC rights as a people, as far as GC choose to define and behave as a people that excludes TC does not really matter to me.

For me that degree of political equality does not have to my community an equal say as communites on EVERY issue, but it does have to give equality to the communites on issues that are commual in their very nature. That is on issues where you 'vote' one way or another based on if you are GC or TC, or to put it another way on issues that affect you differently if you are a GC or a TC. That to me is the minimum requirement for political equality needed so we can move from where we are today to the goal of a unitary Cypriot state and people.

If we can not accept this necessity then I do not think a solution is possible , whether you label the opposition to accepting such as being 'anti racist' or not.

[aussieturk]

George , the T/Cs never entered the equation , frankly they were considered as second class citizens , their feelings were of no interest to us , the majority....

Why second class citizens?

I remember my parents talking about how the policemen were mostly TCs and it was impossible to turn to the police with any everyday problems.

Also, the Brits generally treated the TCs better than the GCs.

It was the GCs who were second (third!) class citizens in their own homeland in the 50s, and even worse, slaves before that!

Utter rubbish. Why do you think there was mass migration by the TC's from Cyprus in the 50's, because the TC's were treated like dirt by the GC's. For gods sake, I thought the GC's were the majority of the population, running the majoruty of businesses and reluctant to employ TC's and creating unemployment and poverty, thats why they left.

[aussieturk]

I was 20 years old back at year 1974. I was a soldier. I fought that war. Did you? I guess not, judging from your comments. Being in front of a computer keyboard typing opinions is one thing, being there, at war, is another. I suggest you have more respect about a true Cypriot and no,
I am not referring to YOUR sexual preferences, I speak in general.

Who were you fighting with EOKA?

[aussieturk]

You treated us like second class people for 300 years. Do you deny this? What kind of say did we have during those 300 years? NONE! And if you wanted Cyprus to be independent then why didn't you make it independent all those centuries? You remembered "independence" a few decades after your empire lost the rule of Cyprus! Your minority can have 18% of say because you are the 18%. Fair and square! Not like when you ruled Cyprus that you gave to the 80% of the people 0% say!

yes Denied - check your history, Ottomans treated all its subjects with respect.

The empire didn't lose Cyprus. Cyprus was a gift to Britain for its assistance in the war against the Russians.

[Oracle]

George , the T/Cs never entered the equation , frankly they were considered as second class citizens , their feelings were of no interest to us , the majority....

Why second class citizens?

I remember my parents talking about how the policemen were mostly TCs and it was impossible to turn to the police with any everyday problems.

Also, the Brits generally treated the TCs better than the GCs.

It was the GCs who were second (third!) class citizens in their own homeland in the 50s, and even worse, slaves before that!

Utter rubbish. Why do you think there was mass migration by the TC's from Cyprus in the 50's, because the TC's were treated like dirt by the GC's. For gods sake, I thought the GC's were the majority of the population, running the majoruty of businesses and reluctant to employ TC's and creating unemployment and poverty, thats why they left.

Here we go, again!

Can you supply some figures towards this "mass migration", because your uncle leaving isn't enough! Lots of GCs' uncles left, too!

BTW We're not the ones who left the Steppes to treat others like "dirt". Don't wrap your well-known dirty linen around us ...

[Oracle]

What would have happened if Cyprus had waited until 14 December 1960?

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Na ... ution_1514

5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.

Exactly. Peoples (plural) - without ANY DISTINCTION to race. How can you possibly claim enosis made no distinction to race ? Enosis was exclusively an ideology of race. How can you possibly claim that for a TC union of their shared homeland with Greece represented them being able to "enjoy complete independence and freedom" ?

This is only true if you believe that the indigenous Cypriots should have had all their free will completely destroyed by centuries of Ottoman oppression, by then. To deny their preferences to live alongside democratic practices.

Instead, you reacted against the fact that we STILL had some identity which you had not crushed!

Isn't this your greatest weapon? The rapid erosion of identity The sapping of inheritance. The ridiculing of any attempts to free-will. The mass re-population by your own followers. The re-naming!

[Sotos]

You treated us like second class people for 300 years. Do you deny this? What kind of say did we have during those 300 years? NONE! And if you wanted Cyprus to be independent then why didn't you make it independent all those centuries? You remembered "independence" a few decades after your empire lost the rule of Cyprus! Your minority can have 18% of say because you are the 18%. Fair and square! Not like when you ruled Cyprus that you gave to the 80% of the people 0% say!

yes Denied - check your history, Ottomans treated all its subjects with respect.

The empire didn't lose Cyprus. Cyprus was a gift to Britain for its assistance in the war against the Russians.

It is so sad that the Ottoman empire does not exist. Everybody was so happy then! Is this the reason you are trying to recreate the Ottoman rule of Cyprus?

[Get Real!]

Utter rubbish. Why do you think there was mass migration by the TC's from Cyprus in the 50's, because the TC's were treated like dirt by the GC's. For gods sake, I thought the GC's were the majority of the population, running the majoruty of businesses and reluctant to employ TC's and creating unemployment and poverty, thats why they left.

You’re talking manufactured rubbish! From the Library of Congress…

Table 7. Turkish Cypriot Population

Year - Population

1921 - 61,339
1931 - 64,245
1946 - 80,548
1960 - 104,333

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cyprus/cy_appen.html

The TC population was steadily increasing so it’s back to uneducated grandpa for some more horror stories to justify their crimes!