Cyprus-Forum.com

[georgios100]

Counter to your lenient testimony about the TMT status in Cyprus, the Greek Cypriots still see TMT as a threat to peace. Many are convinced that TMT was behind the "Solomos incident". What is your take of the Solomos incident? Who was behind this? Was this killing "the right thing to do"? What is the general feeling amongst the TC community? Is this kind of behaviour tolerated in your society?

I really don't see how the TMT is a threat to peace or anything else these days...Volkan newspaper is reflecting the voice of the old TMT for sure,Denktash is one of their columnists,but I would be very surprised if they have much sway these days...TMT could not have been behind the Solomos killing,simply because nobody knew he was planning to climb the flag pole...It was a waste of a life,and a shameful incident for the TC society as a whole,Georgio...I am sure they know who the killer was,but like most of our 'Killers" this one too will get away with murder,I am afraid..Which is a pity,because unless we deal with these issues openly and honestly,we cannot truly expect to have mutual trust and understanding...We need a truth and reconciliation commission badly in Cyprus,I believe...The sooner the better...

There are probably a minority of fanatical nationalists who would say "any hand that is raised to tear down our flag should be cut off" or some such nonsense,but I am sure the majority of the people would be appauled at such a pointless and tragic loss of a life...

Thanks for your response Bir,

I was reading a bit about the "deep state" in Turkey. I understand this has to do with being a Turk as a nationalist, loyal to tradition, existence etc.

I have a few of questions for you, best to be answered first hand, by a Turk or I should say a Turkish Cypriot. Not clear to me which one applies to you.

1. What is the difference, if any, between a Turk (from Turkey) and a Turkish Cypriot? Us, the GCs, don't see any difference whatsoever.
2. Do you think the concept "deep state" applies to Turkish Cypriots?
3. Is the "deep state" compatible with EU values?
4. Was or is the TMT in line or against with the "deep state" principals?
5. Do you like Turkey to call the shots in northern Cyprus or do you want to be completely self governed under the EU umbrella?

I know these are big questions to be answered in simple terms. Take your time and reply with realistic and informative manner rather than taking a "hardliner" stance which defeats the purpose of this conversation.

Thank you in advance.

Georgios100

Note.
To all CF members who would like to join this topic, please try to contribute in a civilized manner and avoid harsh or inflammatory comments.
Just this one time, let's talk. Fighting can resume in other threads .
Thank you.

Starting from the 1st point you made, i'd refrain from using the sentence "us the gc's" especially when making such claims as the one above.

Item 1. Except the birthplace location which differs the TCs from Turkey born Turks. That's what I meant. Not sure if this answers your statement.
Georgios100

not even close mate.

I don't get it. Can you expand in detail?
Georgios100

I know quite a few Turks and quite a few TC's and there's as much similarity as there is between us and the Greeks.

Have you ever met a Turk or a TC? Do you think they're the same? Who told you all GC's consider Turks and TC's the same thing?

No, I don't know any Turks or TCs. Not sure if all GCs see them as Turks.
Therefor the sentence "US, all GCs don't see a difference" should be deleted, thanks.

Georgios100

[georgios100]

I think it is a mistake to think of the Turkish 'deep state' as being a purely Turkish phenomenon. This entity has its roots in one of a number of clandestine organisations that were set up during the cold war by NATO in countries which it was felt may come under Soviet ocupation, and with the aim of conducting guerilla war if this should happen. In several countries these organisations exceeded their initial role and became imbroiled in all manner of illegal acts. A sister organisation known as 'Gladio' has had an equally dark past in Italy where it was responsible for things like the Turin station bombing. Gladio in Italy was exposed by the dedicated efforts of a public prosecutor named Felice Casson, as a result of which it was disbanded. The Turkish 'deep state', in my view, is a cancer that is eating way at the country and many progressive Turkish people hope to see it go the same way as Gladio.

Good point. I don't think the "deep state" is helping the Turkish people as a whole. Don't forget the religious roots playing a part in the original "deep state" creation. Religion should be separated from this.

Awaiting comments from the TCs. I am sure they have their own opinions to express.

Georgios100

[YFred]

Counter to your lenient testimony about the TMT status in Cyprus, the Greek Cypriots still see TMT as a threat to peace. Many are convinced that TMT was behind the "Solomos incident". What is your take of the Solomos incident? Who was behind this? Was this killing "the right thing to do"? What is the general feeling amongst the TC community? Is this kind of behaviour tolerated in your society?

I really don't see how the TMT is a threat to peace or anything else these days...Volkan newspaper is reflecting the voice of the old TMT for sure,Denktash is one of their columnists,but I would be very surprised if they have much sway these days...TMT could not have been behind the Solomos killing,simply because nobody knew he was planning to climb the flag pole...It was a waste of a life,and a shameful incident for the TC society as a whole,Georgio...I am sure they know who the killer was,but like most of our 'Killers" this one too will get away with murder,I am afraid..Which is a pity,because unless we deal with these issues openly and honestly,we cannot truly expect to have mutual trust and understanding...We need a truth and reconciliation commission badly in Cyprus,I believe...The sooner the better...

There are probably a minority of fanatical nationalists who would say "any hand that is raised to tear down our flag should be cut off" or some such nonsense,but I am sure the majority of the people would be appauled at such a pointless and tragic loss of a life...

Thanks for your response Bir,

I was reading a bit about the "deep state" in Turkey. I understand this has to do with being a Turk as a nationalist, loyal to tradition, existence etc.

I have a few of questions for you, best to be answered first hand, by a Turk or I should say a Turkish Cypriot. Not clear to me which one applies to you.

1. What is the difference, if any, between a Turk (from Turkey) and a Turkish Cypriot? Us, the GCs, don't see any difference whatsoever.
2. Do you think the concept "deep state" applies to Turkish Cypriots?
3. Is the "deep state" compatible with EU values?
4. Was or is the TMT in line or against with the "deep state" principals?
5. Do you like Turkey to call the shots in northern Cyprus or do you want to be completely self governed under the EU umbrella?

I know these are big questions to be answered in simple terms. Take your time and reply with realistic and informative manner rather than taking a "hardliner" stance which defeats the purpose of this conversation.

Thank you in advance.

Georgios100

Note.
To all CF members who would like to join this topic, please try to contribute in a civilized manner and avoid harsh or inflammatory comments.
Just this one time, let's talk. Fighting can resume in other threads .
Thank you.

Starting from the 1st point you made, i'd refrain from using the sentence "us the gc's" especially when making such claims as the one above.

Item 1. Except the birthplace location which differs the TCs from Turkey born Turks. That's what I meant. Not sure if this answers your statement.
Georgios100

not even close mate.

I don't get it. Can you expand in detail?
Georgios100

I know quite a few Turks and quite a few TC's and there's as much similarity as there is between us and the Greeks.

Have you ever met a Turk or a TC? Do you think they're the same? Who told you all GC's consider Turks and TC's the same thing?

What's the percentage then old chap, what?

Keep out of this yfred, this is about TC's, not linobambakous.

Do I detect forum censorship here. Have you been elevated to the forum SS?

[free_cyprus]

there were no freedom fighters in cyprus what we had in cyprus was traiters,under the banners of freedom fighters, traiters who commited democide and if your wondering what the word democide means it simply means governments killing their own people. by way of supporting the so called freedom fighters who wanted to give cyprus to greece and freedom fighters who wanted to devide cyprus up and give it to turkey
and if you call this freedom fighters for the good of cyprus then i have lost the meaning of what freedom fighter means in the world.................................................

[georgios100]

there were no freedom fighters in cyprus what we had in cyprus was traiters,under the banners of freedom fighters, traiters who commited democide and if your wondering what the word democide means it simply means governments killing their own people. by way of supporting the so called freedom fighters who wanted to give cyprus to greece and freedom fighters who wanted to devide cyprus up and give it to turkey
and if you call this freedom fighters for the good of cyprus then i have lost the meaning of what freedom fighter means in the world.................................................

Definition of freedom. Source ; Wikipedia.

A resistance movement is a group or collection of individual groups, dedicated to fighting an invader in an occupied country or the government of a sovereign nation through either the use of physical force, or nonviolence. The term resistance is generally used to designate movement considered legitimate (from the speaker's point of view). Organizations and individuals critical of foreign intervention and supporting forms of organized movement (particularly where citizens are affected) tend to favor the term. When such a resistance movement uses violence, those favorably disposed to it may also speak of freedom fighters.

End of lesson.

Georgios100

[free_cyprus]

hey you dip stick i dont need definition of what ffreedom fighter means , i did not see grek speaking people fighting greeks from greece to kick them out and i certainly did not see turkish speaking fighting the turks from turkey to kick them out instead what i saw was they proudly housted their greek mainlanf flags up proclaiming to be greeks and they housted up their turkish flags proclaiming to be turkish what joke

and your trying to explain to me what the definition of freedom fighter is mister my way of thinking and your way of think is a galaxy apart trust me on that
now go an dtell your so called cypriot friends who are turkish and greek this stuff but dont try and sell me it

[BirKibrisli]

Counter to your lenient testimony about the TMT status in Cyprus, the Greek Cypriots still see TMT as a threat to peace. Many are convinced that TMT was behind the "Solomos incident". What is your take of the Solomos incident? Who was behind this? Was this killing "the right thing to do"? What is the general feeling amongst the TC community? Is this kind of behaviour tolerated in your society?

I really don't see how the TMT is a threat to peace or anything else these days...Volkan newspaper is reflecting the voice of the old TMT for sure,Denktash is one of their columnists,but I would be very surprised if they have much sway these days...TMT could not have been behind the Solomos killing,simply because nobody knew he was planning to climb the flag pole...It was a waste of a life,and a shameful incident for the TC society as a whole,Georgio...I am sure they know who the killer was,but like most of our 'Killers" this one too will get away with murder,I am afraid..Which is a pity,because unless we deal with these issues openly and honestly,we cannot truly expect to have mutual trust and understanding...We need a truth and reconciliation commission badly in Cyprus,I believe...The sooner the better...

There are probably a minority of fanatical nationalists who would say "any hand that is raised to tear down our flag should be cut off" or some such nonsense,but I am sure the majority of the people would be appauled at such a pointless and tragic loss of a life...

Thanks for your response Bir,

I was reading a bit about the "deep state" in Turkey. I understand this has to do with being a Turk as a nationalist, loyal to tradition, existence etc.

I have a few of questions for you, best to be answered first hand, by a Turk or I should say a Turkish Cypriot. Not clear to me which one applies to you.

1. What is the difference, if any, between a Turk (from Turkey) and a Turkish Cypriot? Us, the GCs, don't see any difference whatsoever.
2. Do you think the concept "deep state" applies to Turkish Cypriots?
3. Is the "deep state" compatible with EU values?
4. Was or is the TMT in line or against with the "deep state" principals?
5. Do you like Turkey to call the shots in northern Cyprus or do you want to be completely self governed under the EU umbrella?

I know these are big questions to be answered in simple terms. Take your time and reply with realistic and informative manner rather than taking a "hardliner" stance which defeats the purpose of this conversation.

Thank you in advance.

Georgios100

Note.
To all CF members who would like to join this topic, please try to contribute in a civilized manner and avoid harsh or inflammatory comments.
Just this one time, let's talk. Fighting can resume in other threads .
Thank you.

I am definitely a Turkish Cypriot,Georgio...
I first went to Turkey when I was 17 years old,and I thought I was in a foreign country whose language I could understand (though not speak like they did).

Better to answer your questions in numerical order...

1.The most clear way to explain the differences is to say what DT said already...It is exactly the same difference as that between a GC and a mainland Greek...There are degrees of diferences when it comes to individuals,depending on their level of education...But overall,there are big differences rearding world views,sense of humour,approach to religion,family and relationships,food,sense of fun etc etc...

2.Not sure what you mean here. If you are asking is the "deep state' present in Cypus,the answer is YES. I would even say that Cyprus was probably the laborotary where the Turkish deep state experimented and developed itself. This meant nothing of course for the average TC who knew nothing about it anyway...And as Tim pointed out "deep state"s are found in most countries in none form or another...There is definitely a deep state in the RoC for example...You probably don't see it...And it is well camouflaged..But look carefully who is running the secret service,the national guard,the army reservists,and their government liaison person and the finance department head and the private businesses who sponsor them,and you are looking at the governing body of the deep RoC state......

3. No.The deep state is not compatible with any values,except perhaps those of the fanatical nationalists.

4.I had a chuckle here...The TMT was founded and run by the Turkish deep state...Full stop.

5.Personally I want Cyprus to be a unitary state run strictly on democratic principles,and human rights values...Ethnic backgrounds should play no part in the 21st Century in people's political and public lives...Having said that I also realise that Cypriots are not ready for this,as they have no empathy and compassion for each other...Some GCs even blame the TCs of today for the Ottoman invasion of 1571...There is too much bad blood,too much bitterness and hatred,especially on the GC side...The best we can hope for is a BBF with a strong federal government which will work towards healing and reconciliating all Cypriots into one nation one people...At the moment we have one nation but 2 peoples...The TCs being in the minority,and having lived through the 50s through to 70s need and want and deserve special protection/treatment for an interim period...Any solution will have to address that,or there will be no solution...Sad but true...

[georgios100]

Counter to your lenient testimony about the TMT status in Cyprus, the Greek Cypriots still see TMT as a threat to peace. Many are convinced that TMT was behind the "Solomos incident". What is your take of the Solomos incident? Who was behind this? Was this killing "the right thing to do"? What is the general feeling amongst the TC community? Is this kind of behaviour tolerated in your society?

I really don't see how the TMT is a threat to peace or anything else these days...Volkan newspaper is reflecting the voice of the old TMT for sure,Denktash is one of their columnists,but I would be very surprised if they have much sway these days...TMT could not have been behind the Solomos killing,simply because nobody knew he was planning to climb the flag pole...It was a waste of a life,and a shameful incident for the TC society as a whole,Georgio...I am sure they know who the killer was,but like most of our 'Killers" this one too will get away with murder,I am afraid..Which is a pity,because unless we deal with these issues openly and honestly,we cannot truly expect to have mutual trust and understanding...We need a truth and reconciliation commission badly in Cyprus,I believe...The sooner the better...

There are probably a minority of fanatical nationalists who would say "any hand that is raised to tear down our flag should be cut off" or some such nonsense,but I am sure the majority of the people would be appauled at such a pointless and tragic loss of a life...

Thanks for your response Bir,

I was reading a bit about the "deep state" in Turkey. I understand this has to do with being a Turk as a nationalist, loyal to tradition, existence etc.

I have a few of questions for you, best to be answered first hand, by a Turk or I should say a Turkish Cypriot. Not clear to me which one applies to you.

1. What is the difference, if any, between a Turk (from Turkey) and a Turkish Cypriot? Us, the GCs, don't see any difference whatsoever.
2. Do you think the concept "deep state" applies to Turkish Cypriots?
3. Is the "deep state" compatible with EU values?
4. Was or is the TMT in line or against with the "deep state" principals?
5. Do you like Turkey to call the shots in northern Cyprus or do you want to be completely self governed under the EU umbrella?

I know these are big questions to be answered in simple terms. Take your time and reply with realistic and informative manner rather than taking a "hardliner" stance which defeats the purpose of this conversation.

Thank you in advance.

Georgios100

Note.
To all CF members who would like to join this topic, please try to contribute in a civilized manner and avoid harsh or inflammatory comments.
Just this one time, let's talk. Fighting can resume in other threads .
Thank you.

I am definitely a Turkish Cypriot,Georgio...
I first went to Turkey when I was 17 years old,and I thought I was in a foreign country whose language I could understand (though not speak like they did).

Better to answer your questions in numerical order...

1.The most clear way to explain the differences is to say what DT said already...It is exactly the same difference as that between a GC and a mainland Greek...There are degrees of diferences when it comes to individuals,depending on their level of education...But overall,there are big differences rearding world views,sense of humour,approach to religion,family and relationships,food,sense of fun etc etc...

2.Not sure what you mean here. If you are asking is the "deep state' present in Cypus,the answer is YES. I would even say that Cyprus was probably the laborotary where the Turkish deep state experimented and developed itself. This meant nothing of course for the average TC who knew nothing about it anyway...And as Tim pointed out "deep state"s are found in most countries in none form or another...There is definitely a deep state in the RoC for example...You probably don't see it...And it is well camouflaged..But look carefully who is running the secret service,the national guard,the army reservists,and their government liaison person and the finance department head and the private businesses who sponsor them,and you are looking at the governing body of the deep RoC state......

3. No.The deep state is not compatible with any values,except perhaps those of the fanatical nationalists.

4.I had a chuckle here...The TMT was founded and run by the Turkish deep state...Full stop.

5.Personally I want Cyprus to be a unitary state run strictly on democratic principles,and human rights values...Ethnic backgrounds should play no part in the 21st Century in people's political and public lives...Having said that I also realise that Cypriots are not ready for this,as they have no empathy and compassion for each other...Some GCs even blame the TCs of today for the Ottoman invasion of 1571...There is too much bad blood,too much bitterness and hatred,especially on the GC side...The best we can hope for is a BBF with a strong federal government which will work towards healing and reconciliating all Cypriots into one nation one people...At the moment we have one nation but 2 peoples...The TCs being in the minority,and having lived through the 50s through to 70s need and want and deserve special protection/treatment for an interim period...Any solution will have to address that,or there will be no solution...Sad but true...

Thanks for the comments Bir.

I was asking these questions to clarify the "deep state" principal. I though this "deep state" only applied to the Turkish nation (unique). I read somewhere that only a Turk could understand the true meaning of this... The info you provided clearly gives me a better explanation, thanks.

Items 1, 2 & 3. Good reply.

Item 4. TMT was created by the "deep state". OK.

Item 5. What I was asking had to do with Turkey having control of the north post the EU agreement. In other words, when the north finally joins the EU as a Unified Cyprus, what would Turkey's role be then?

Will Turkey leave you guys alone so you can contact business like any other European nation does?

Will Turkey continue to influence both politically and socially?

What, in your opinion, is to happen?

How do you see the TC community adjusting to the new EU horizon?

By just voting "yes" to the referendum is only the beginning. The real work is just starting for you guys. So, how do you see the future evolving?

Georgios100