Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I think you'll find thats what Piratis is saying. The only one with the "purist notion of origination" is Erolz on this thread.

The issue was not of purity of origins. The question is can Greek culture be considered the 'indegenous culture' of Cyprus or not.

If that culture came to Cyprus from outside Cyprus then by definition it is not 'indigenous' to Cyprus.

If that culture originated IN Cyprus and spread outwards from there then it can be said to be the indigneous culture off Cyprus.

Greek civilization and culture originated and evolved from the ancient Greek world, which included Cyprus. When you think about the origins of the Greek Civilization you can't think about Greece in terms of the borders that the modern Greek state has (which were created in the 19th century) but in terms of how the Greek world was 1000s of years ago.

The Greek world at that time was made up by several separate Greek city states, and not a single one of them was the origin of the civilization, but the combination of all.

In Cyprus the Greek Alphabet was probably developed. The island of Samos is where Pythagoras came from. Archimedes was from Sicily. These are just a few examples.

Like you said "French culture can be said to have originated in France." Similarly Greek culture originated in Greece, but not in the Greece of 19th century - the Greek civilization is far older than that, but in the Greek world of several 1000s years ago which included Cyprus.

[erolz3]

So it was a hybrid culture, an amalgamation of aspects of several seperate cultures from different places that overtime intermixed and combined into what is now regarded as ancient greek culture ?

So some aspects of greek culture or what was to become greek culture were indigenous to cyprus and some were not ? That is some originated in Cyprus and others did not.

[Oracle]

It is a notion that the ANC itself as far back as 1955 explicitly rejected BECAUSE it was a divisive notion of nationalism and instead comitted themselves to an inclusive one.

Is that what the White, foreign, Colonialists imposed on the ANC shortly before they then banned them?

Once more you show how by your choosing to categorise the groups in SA under aparthied how YOUR notion of nationalism is exclusive and divisive and how different it was and is from that of the ANC , that rejected such divisive notions of SA nationalism.

The ANC could easily have chosen to portray the stuggle against aparthied as one of a struggle between 'real' SA , the 'natives' as you call them and 'white foriegn colonialist'. However they unlike you could see as far back as 1955 why doing such would damage all prospects of building a new inclusive and better SA after aparthied was defeated.

Defending and struggling for their rights , as SAs and as humans did not require them to define the whites in SA, both that were opressing them as well as those that opposed such opression, as not SA with no place in SA and as white foriegn colonialists. They defended their rights and eventualy ended the oppression of aparthied not only without doing this but explicitly rejecting such notions, and thus not only achieved an end to arparthied but created a potential for a true inclusive SA nation and nationalism after aparthied that could not have esixted if they had do as YOU do today.

In short there are reasons why the ANC explictly rejected the notion that the struggle against aparthied was one of 'native' SA vs foreign white colonial rulers. Just as there are reasons why YOU today define the struggle as such despite the ANC rejection of it 55 years ago.

I don't accept your whitewash which is too supportive of the Colonialists' oppressive techniques (and ignores the evidence I posted on the other thread).

In the end, Apartheid ceased because people realised how evil such a matter was. How unbecoming of civilised man.

This deference to Humanity does not seem to deter the Tuorkous from imposing Apartheid in Cyprus, even today!

[Oracle]

So it was a hybrid culture, an amalgamation of aspects of several seperate cultures from different places that overtime intermixed and combined into what is now regarded as ancient greek culture ?

So some aspects of greek culture or what was to become greek culture were indigenous to cyprus and some were not ? That is some originated in Cyprus and others did not.

You are forgetting that 10,000 years ago when cultures were getting started in these parts, there was no known concept of "indigenous". That is not the case 2,000 years ago for example. And Certainly not 1,000 years ago. You arrived so late on the scene, to fit into the wealth of our history, poetry, tragedies, philosophy, architecture, science and Arts, that you are forever relegated to "foreigner" for as long as you refuse to integrate with our well-established systems of operation.

Stop oppressing our culture. We have a right to survive ....

[erolz3]

In the end, Apartheid ceased because people realised how evil such a matter was.

Of course aparthied as parcticed in SA was abohrrent and had to end.

My point remains however that your definitions of who were the groups involved in aparthied and thus what kind of SA nationalism you define, were and are divisive and exlusionary and totaly the opposite to those adopted by the ANC.

The issue here is what happens AFTER aparthied ends. With the approach that the ANC adopted in 1955 of defining SA nationalism in inclusive terms and explicilty rejecting the definitions you still choose to use today the potential for a better inclusive SA was possible. If the ANC had of taken the approach and defintions that you choose to still use today, then what chance for the creation of an inculsive SA AFTER aparthied would there have been ?

The question becomes why do you insist on defining and seeing aparthied in SA in terms that are divisive and exclusionary , and were expliclity rejected by the ANC as early as 1955 because such was so undermining of the hope and dream of better an inclusive SA in the future ?

The answer to that seems pretty obvious to me.

The only thing we can truly change in this world is ourselves. You should look within yourself Oracle and ask why do you insist on defining aparthied in SA in terms that are exclusionary, divisive and an impediment to a better inclusive future SA and to what degree does your world view that makes you do this represent an impediment to the potential for a better inclusive Cyprus future.

Of course you will not do this but you should.

[Piratis]

So it was a hybrid culture, an amalgamation of aspects of several seperate cultures from different places that overtime intermixed and combined into what is now regarded as ancient greek culture ?

So some aspects of greek culture or what was to become greek culture were indigenous to cyprus and some were not ? That is some originated in Cyprus and others did not.

The Greek culture is a culture like every other.

France was a culture that came out of Paris, Lyon, Lille etc, and the Greek culture came out of cities like Athens, Sparta, Samos, Salamis, Rhodes etc. No difference whatsoever, except from the fact that the Greek Civilization came much earlier than the French one.

The amalgamation and intermixing is something that happened within all cultures but also between different cultures that had contact with each other. This is something which continues until today, and in an even greater degree now than ever before.

[erolz3]

You are forgetting that 10,000 years ago when cultures were getting started in these parts, there was no known concept of "indigenous".

Logic really is not your strong point is it Oracle? 10,000 years ago there was no concept of genes or genetics but that does not mean that genes did not exist 10,00 years ago.

You arrived so late on the scene, to fit into the wealth of our history, poetry, tragedies, philosophy, architecture, science and Arts, that you are forever relegated to "foreigner" for as long as you refuse to integrate with our well-established systems of operation.

And so once more we come back to the same core of the Cyprus problem. GC are the 'real','native' and 'indigenous' cypriots and any one else living in cyprus who does not share that GC culture or willinging adopt it as their own is a 'foreigner' and forever so. Can you really wonder why politcal equality of communites is so important to TC when this is your ideology ?

You sound like some mad variant of the borg

'assmilate or go, resistance is futile'

Stop oppressing our culture. We have a right to survive ....

And you accuse TC of 'exageration' as propaganda ? Tradgic as the events of 74 were for GC and they were indeed a vast tradgedy the events of 74 and after have never represented a risk of GC culture or community ceasing to exist. As to if the events in cyprus from 50 to 74 represented a real risk of TC culture or community ceasing to exist well that is another matter entirely.

[BirKibrisli]

Georgio,
Sorry for the delayed reply...My computer was out of action for a few days...Listen,mate...For all intends and purposes TMT does not officially exist...It never did,you realise...So one cannot abolish something that doesnt exist...As I said earlier,I believe TMT, like the EOKA, only exists in some people's minds and hearts...In practice it is no more than a think-tank these days,trying to influence the political situation,but not having much sway...Especially now with the Ergenekon trials in Turkey,they would be very stupid to try to become active in any way other than legal...

The key to the solution is in the hands of Turkey and the RoC...If the RoC and the Greek Cypriots agree to maintain Turkey's guarantor status,and if they agree to an interim situation where the political majority power would be in the hands of the TCs (indigenous and new!) in one of the constituent states,we can have a solution tomorrow...Otherwise the status quo will remain till Turkey decides to annex the trnc as the final solution...
I honestly cannot see any other way out... peacefully...

[Get Real!]

For all intends and purposes TMT does not officially exist...It never did,you realise...So one cannot abolish something that doesnt exist...

At the risk that Bir may come back to withdraw this statement I think he should be ignored!

[BirKibrisli]

For all intends and purposes TMT does not officially exist...It never did,you realise...So one cannot abolish something that doesnt exist...

At the risk that Bir may come back to withdraw this statement I think he should be ignored!

Stop taking sentences out of context and trying to twist their meaning,GR!...If you are having trouble understanding what I am saying,I can explain, if you ask nicely...