Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

It is a notion that the ANC itself as far back as 1955 explicitly rejected BECAUSE it was a divisive notion of nationalism and instead comitted themselves to an inclusive one.

Is that what the White, foreign, Colonialists imposed on the ANC shortly before they then banned them? A way of eroding their right to their own lands and call for human rights?

Isn't this what Turkey is doing right now (with your tacit approval) .... erosion of our history! Renaming and redefining our nomenclature, before annihilating us (GCs) completely?

[Malapapa]

Any person who engages into conversation with the "enemy" should not be considered a "Turk". President Christofias is talking to them every so often. Is he a "Turk"? Christofias already agreed with Talat in a few areas. Does that make him a "Turk"?

I said "support" Ankara, not merely converse!

BTW, "geargios" this is what annoyed me, just so that you don't think it was random:

... I am wondering about the legality of TMT when the northern part of Cyprus joins the EU.

FYI, The northern part of Cyprus is in the EU under the legitimate government of the RoC.

(There were a few minor matters also, but hopefully Malapapa will get the gist).

I'd rather give Georgios the benefit of the doubt. As a Canadian, he may not be a "Turk" for not fully appreciating that the whole island is in the EU. He may not realise that the acquis communautaire (EU law) is merely suspended in areas where the Cypriot government cannot exercise effective control, due to Turkey's occupying army.

[Oracle]

Any person who engages into conversation with the "enemy" should not be considered a "Turk". President Christofias is talking to them every so often. Is he a "Turk"? Christofias already agreed with Talat in a few areas. Does that make him a "Turk"?

I said "support" Ankara, not merely converse!

BTW, "geargios" this is what annoyed me, just so that you don't think it was random:

... I am wondering about the legality of TMT when the northern part of Cyprus joins the EU.

FYI, The northern part of Cyprus is in the EU under the legitimate government of the RoC.

(There were a few minor matters also, but hopefully Malapapa will get the gist).

I'd rather give Georgios the benefit of the doubt. As a Canadian, he may not be a "Turk" for not fully appreciating that the whole island is in the EU. He may not realise that the acquis communautaire (EU law) is merely suspended in areas where the Cypriot government cannot exercise effective control, due to Turkey's occupying army.

Fine.

At least we both agree that point of his was out of order.

[georgios100]

Any person who engages into conversation with the "enemy" should not be considered a "Turk". President Christofias is talking to them every so often. Is he a "Turk"? Christofias already agreed with Talat in a few areas. Does that make him a "Turk"?

I said "support" Ankara, not merely converse!

BTW, "geargios" this is what annoyed me, just so that you don't think it was random:

... I am wondering about the legality of TMT when the northern part of Cyprus joins the EU.

FYI, The northern part of Cyprus is in the EU under the legitimate government of the RoC.

(There were a few minor matters also, but hopefully Malapapa will get the gist).

I'd rather give Georgios the benefit of the doubt. As a Canadian, he may not be a "Turk" for not fully appreciating that the whole island is in the EU. He may not realise that the acquis communautaire (EU law) is merely suspended in areas where the Cypriot government cannot exercise effective control, due to Turkey's occupying army.

Fine.

At least we both agree that point of his was out of order.

Here is what I posted earlier:

Having said that, I am wondering about the legality of TMT when the northern part of Cyprus joins the EU. What is your gut feeling about this? Would it be fair to assume you would like to see TMT out of the picture?

I would appreciate if the whole string of a statement appears when commenting on some one's opinion. Oracle got annoyed reading the above.

I am well aware of the whole Cyprus as a member of the EU under the legitimate government of the RoC. But that's just geographically. In reality, RoC cannot enforce it's authority on the northern part for now.

This means it's up to the TCs leadership to make sure the TMT is out of the picture, prior to any agreement signing. Hense the statement above.

Still annoyed?

Georgios100

[erolz3]

It is a notion that the ANC itself as far back as 1955 explicitly rejected BECAUSE it was a divisive notion of nationalism and instead comitted themselves to an inclusive one.

Is that what the White, foreign, Colonialists imposed on the ANC shortly before they then banned them?

Once more you show how by your choosing to categorise the groups in SA under aparthied how YOUR notion of nationalism is exclusive and divisive and how different it was and is from that of the ANC , that rejected such divisive notions of SA nationalism.

The ANC could easily have chosen to portray the stuggle against aparthied as one of a struggle between 'real' SA , the 'natives' as you call them and 'white foriegn colonialist'. However they unlike you could see as far back as 1955 why doing such would damage all prospects of building a new inclusive and better SA after aparthied was defeated.

Defending and struggling for their rights , as SAs and as humans did not require them to define the whites in SA, both that were opressing them as well as those that opposed such opression, as not SA with no place in SA and as white foriegn colonialists. They defended their rights and eventualy ended the oppression of aparthied not only without doing this but explicitly rejecting such notions, and thus not only achieved an end to arparthied but created a potential for a true inclusive SA nation and nationalism after aparthied that could not have esixted if they had do as YOU do today.

In short there are reasons why the ANC explictly rejected the notion that the struggle against aparthied was one of 'native' SA vs foreign white colonial rulers. Just as there are reasons why YOU today define the struggle as such despite the ANC rejection of it 55 years ago.

[ozlala]

Thanks for your comments Bir. I have been reading all your posting and responses carefully... you are an excellent debater indeed.

Al of the above items can be "fair game" for discussion. Clearly, all this would never happen if EOKA never existed. The TMT was a counter to EOKA's objectives, a way to defend the TC minority existence. You guys had to respond fearing the worst... I totally understand it. Needless to say both GCs and TCs committed violent crimes against each other, a "normal" necessary evil in an uprising situation of any nation in the world (history has many examples). Despite all this, a fragile independence and the ousting of the Brits was a real fact. The "new" RoC was born but with many defects... definitely not perfect. EOKA was dissolved soon after.

So here is the problem.

The TCs maintained fear of more attacks from the GCs. As a result, the TMT kept growing on that fear. At first it would seem to be the right thing to do, strengthen TMT to counter the GCs "aggression" and protect the TC minority. No one would imagine that TMT was a bad idea. As the years went by, the TCs realized that TMT is the enemy within but it was too late. TMT was calling the shots then and still does, to this day. TMT was born to counter fear but now thrives on imposing fear to it's own people.
Furthermore, TMT plays an important role in Turkish politics and has great influence in every day life ot the TCs. Truly, I am convinced TMT is a major obstacle to a fair solution of the Cyprus problem. As far as Enosis is concerned, we all know now this target is "dead in the water".

I invite you to elaborate on the above, particularly on the TMT as an entity. I have the impression that any TMT related threads may be "out of bounds" on this forum. If this is true your silence to this issue is perfectly understood.

Georgios100

And I thank you sincerely,Georgio,for your sensible and measured response...You are open and constructive,and I have no doubt if all the GCs here were like you,we would be a lot closer to mutual understanding and respect...

To be honest,i think you are overestimating the TMT's role in the past and now...these days they are little more than an 'association'trying to influence things politically...I am not sure how much real support or influence they have...In the past they did their best to keep the TCs away from the GCs and on the path of Taksim (Partition),but even then the average TC had little fear of them...They were our heroes,our protectors from the feared EOKA...As a child I was more afraid of my grandmother than of the TMT... I've told this story a few times...The TMT via their Youth Association (Genclik Teskilati) tried to stop people from speaking Cypriot Greek...There was a fine of 20 shillings for each Greek word uttered...And the children were supposed to spy on their families and report to the local TMT man...well,my grandmothers first language was Greek,(I still havent figured out how that came about,most probably her family descended from converted GCs!) and she spoke only Greek at home,but i wouldn't dream of dobbing her in...She had a special punishment for dobbers,made them eat red hot chillies...

There was of course a serious,menacing side to the TMT,and they did assassinate those they considered a danger to their cause (they called them traitors of course!). But there was also a lot of thugs in the TMT who used their position to get even with their personal enemies...I feel the TMT was more of a psychological force for both the TCs and the GCs...They often grandstood and bluffed their ways out of corners,and was not as effective as people now believe...It is a shame of course that the criminal elements among them went unpunished,and some even acquired hero status,very much like the original EOKA members...





_________________

Nice to hear from you Bir, thanks.

Actually I spent a couple of hours researching TMT on the Internet. It would appear TMT is involved in numerous international activities, not just Cyprus. These guys are everywhere, Europe, Asia & the Mid-East. By many accounts TMT is active.

Considering Denktas was one of the TMT founders, one would think the situation could have been different without a possible influence or "flavour"
coming from TMT supporters.

Having said that, I am wondering about the legality of TMT when the northern part of Cyprus joins the EU. What is your gut feeling about this? Would it be fair to assume you would like to see TMT out of the picture?
100

I like these responses. We need more like it

You mean a bunch of Tourkous exchanging daydreams?

You have nothing but negative aptitude Oracle. I thought Georgios was GC.

[YFred]

Thanks for your comments Bir. I have been reading all your posting and responses carefully... you are an excellent debater indeed.

Al of the above items can be "fair game" for discussion. Clearly, all this would never happen if EOKA never existed. The TMT was a counter to EOKA's objectives, a way to defend the TC minority existence. You guys had to respond fearing the worst... I totally understand it. Needless to say both GCs and TCs committed violent crimes against each other, a "normal" necessary evil in an uprising situation of any nation in the world (history has many examples). Despite all this, a fragile independence and the ousting of the Brits was a real fact. The "new" RoC was born but with many defects... definitely not perfect. EOKA was dissolved soon after.

So here is the problem.

The TCs maintained fear of more attacks from the GCs. As a result, the TMT kept growing on that fear. At first it would seem to be the right thing to do, strengthen TMT to counter the GCs "aggression" and protect the TC minority. No one would imagine that TMT was a bad idea. As the years went by, the TCs realized that TMT is the enemy within but it was too late. TMT was calling the shots then and still does, to this day. TMT was born to counter fear but now thrives on imposing fear to it's own people.
Furthermore, TMT plays an important role in Turkish politics and has great influence in every day life ot the TCs. Truly, I am convinced TMT is a major obstacle to a fair solution of the Cyprus problem. As far as Enosis is concerned, we all know now this target is "dead in the water".

I invite you to elaborate on the above, particularly on the TMT as an entity. I have the impression that any TMT related threads may be "out of bounds" on this forum. If this is true your silence to this issue is perfectly understood.

Georgios100

And I thank you sincerely,Georgio,for your sensible and measured response...You are open and constructive,and I have no doubt if all the GCs here were like you,we would be a lot closer to mutual understanding and respect...

To be honest,i think you are overestimating the TMT's role in the past and now...these days they are little more than an 'association'trying to influence things politically...I am not sure how much real support or influence they have...In the past they did their best to keep the TCs away from the GCs and on the path of Taksim (Partition),but even then the average TC had little fear of them...They were our heroes,our protectors from the feared EOKA...As a child I was more afraid of my grandmother than of the TMT... I've told this story a few times...The TMT via their Youth Association (Genclik Teskilati) tried to stop people from speaking Cypriot Greek...There was a fine of 20 shillings for each Greek word uttered...And the children were supposed to spy on their families and report to the local TMT man...well,my grandmothers first language was Greek,(I still havent figured out how that came about,most probably her family descended from converted GCs!) and she spoke only Greek at home,but i wouldn't dream of dobbing her in...She had a special punishment for dobbers,made them eat red hot chillies...

There was of course a serious,menacing side to the TMT,and they did assassinate those they considered a danger to their cause (they called them traitors of course!). But there was also a lot of thugs in the TMT who used their position to get even with their personal enemies...I feel the TMT was more of a psychological force for both the TCs and the GCs...They often grandstood and bluffed their ways out of corners,and was not as effective as people now believe...It is a shame of course that the criminal elements among them went unpunished,and some even acquired hero status,very much like the original EOKA members...





_________________

Nice to hear from you Bir, thanks.

Actually I spent a couple of hours researching TMT on the Internet. It would appear TMT is involved in numerous international activities, not just Cyprus. These guys are everywhere, Europe, Asia & the Mid-East. By many accounts TMT is active.

Considering Denktas was one of the TMT founders, one would think the situation could have been different without a possible influence or "flavour"
coming from TMT supporters.

Having said that, I am wondering about the legality of TMT when the northern part of Cyprus joins the EU. What is your gut feeling about this? Would it be fair to assume you would like to see TMT out of the picture?
100

I like these responses. We need more like it

You mean a bunch of Tourkous exchanging daydreams?

You have nothing but negative aptitude Oracle. I thought Georgios was GC.

Any GC who disagrees with the hellenic view of life is hence known as Turkos. It's the biggest insult you can throw at a GC. They don't come any bigger than our Oracle.

[Malapapa]

You mean a bunch of Tourkous exchanging daydreams?

You have nothing but negative aptitude Oracle. I thought Georgios was GC.

Interesting way of putting it.

[ozlala]

Thanks for your comments Bir. I have been reading all your posting and responses carefully... you are an excellent debater indeed.

Al of the above items can be "fair game" for discussion. Clearly, all this would never happen if EOKA never existed. The TMT was a counter to EOKA's objectives, a way to defend the TC minority existence. You guys had to respond fearing the worst... I totally understand it. Needless to say both GCs and TCs committed violent crimes against each other, a "normal" necessary evil in an uprising situation of any nation in the world (history has many examples). Despite all this, a fragile independence and the ousting of the Brits was a real fact. The "new" RoC was born but with many defects... definitely not perfect. EOKA was dissolved soon after.

So here is the problem.

The TCs maintained fear of more attacks from the GCs. As a result, the TMT kept growing on that fear. At first it would seem to be the right thing to do, strengthen TMT to counter the GCs "aggression" and protect the TC minority. No one would imagine that TMT was a bad idea. As the years went by, the TCs realized that TMT is the enemy within but it was too late. TMT was calling the shots then and still does, to this day. TMT was born to counter fear but now thrives on imposing fear to it's own people.
Furthermore, TMT plays an important role in Turkish politics and has great influence in every day life ot the TCs. Truly, I am convinced TMT is a major obstacle to a fair solution of the Cyprus problem. As far as Enosis is concerned, we all know now this target is "dead in the water".

I invite you to elaborate on the above, particularly on the TMT as an entity. I have the impression that any TMT related threads may be "out of bounds" on this forum. If this is true your silence to this issue is perfectly understood.

Georgios100

And I thank you sincerely,Georgio,for your sensible and measured response...You are open and constructive,and I have no doubt if all the GCs here were like you,we would be a lot closer to mutual understanding and respect...

To be honest,i think you are overestimating the TMT's role in the past and now...these days they are little more than an 'association'trying to influence things politically...I am not sure how much real support or influence they have...In the past they did their best to keep the TCs away from the GCs and on the path of Taksim (Partition),but even then the average TC had little fear of them...They were our heroes,our protectors from the feared EOKA...As a child I was more afraid of my grandmother than of the TMT... I've told this story a few times...The TMT via their Youth Association (Genclik Teskilati) tried to stop people from speaking Cypriot Greek...There was a fine of 20 shillings for each Greek word uttered...And the children were supposed to spy on their families and report to the local TMT man...well,my grandmothers first language was Greek,(I still havent figured out how that came about,most probably her family descended from converted GCs!) and she spoke only Greek at home,but i wouldn't dream of dobbing her in...She had a special punishment for dobbers,made them eat red hot chillies...

There was of course a serious,menacing side to the TMT,and they did assassinate those they considered a danger to their cause (they called them traitors of course!). But there was also a lot of thugs in the TMT who used their position to get even with their personal enemies...I feel the TMT was more of a psychological force for both the TCs and the GCs...They often grandstood and bluffed their ways out of corners,and was not as effective as people now believe...It is a shame of course that the criminal elements among them went unpunished,and some even acquired hero status,very much like the original EOKA members...





_________________

Nice to hear from you Bir, thanks.

Actually I spent a couple of hours researching TMT on the Internet. It would appear TMT is involved in numerous international activities, not just Cyprus. These guys are everywhere, Europe, Asia & the Mid-East. By many accounts TMT is active.

Considering Denktas was one of the TMT founders, one would think the situation could have been different without a possible influence or "flavour"
coming from TMT supporters.

Having said that, I am wondering about the legality of TMT when the northern part of Cyprus joins the EU. What is your gut feeling about this? Would it be fair to assume you would like to see TMT out of the picture?
100

I like these responses. We need more like it

You mean a bunch of Tourkous exchanging daydreams?

You have nothing but negative aptitude Oracle. I thought Georgios was GC.

Any GC who disagrees with the hellenic view of life is hence known as Turkos. It's the biggest insult you can throw at a GC. They don't come any bigger than our Oracle.

I hope the GCs leaders don't have the aptitude as Oracle have for a all the GCs sake otherwise nothing will ever happen.

[YFred]

Thanks for your comments Bir. I have been reading all your posting and responses carefully... you are an excellent debater indeed.

Al of the above items can be "fair game" for discussion. Clearly, all this would never happen if EOKA never existed. The TMT was a counter to EOKA's objectives, a way to defend the TC minority existence. You guys had to respond fearing the worst... I totally understand it. Needless to say both GCs and TCs committed violent crimes against each other, a "normal" necessary evil in an uprising situation of any nation in the world (history has many examples). Despite all this, a fragile independence and the ousting of the Brits was a real fact. The "new" RoC was born but with many defects... definitely not perfect. EOKA was dissolved soon after.

So here is the problem.

The TCs maintained fear of more attacks from the GCs. As a result, the TMT kept growing on that fear. At first it would seem to be the right thing to do, strengthen TMT to counter the GCs "aggression" and protect the TC minority. No one would imagine that TMT was a bad idea. As the years went by, the TCs realized that TMT is the enemy within but it was too late. TMT was calling the shots then and still does, to this day. TMT was born to counter fear but now thrives on imposing fear to it's own people.
Furthermore, TMT plays an important role in Turkish politics and has great influence in every day life ot the TCs. Truly, I am convinced TMT is a major obstacle to a fair solution of the Cyprus problem. As far as Enosis is concerned, we all know now this target is "dead in the water".

I invite you to elaborate on the above, particularly on the TMT as an entity. I have the impression that any TMT related threads may be "out of bounds" on this forum. If this is true your silence to this issue is perfectly understood.

Georgios100

And I thank you sincerely,Georgio,for your sensible and measured response...You are open and constructive,and I have no doubt if all the GCs here were like you,we would be a lot closer to mutual understanding and respect...

To be honest,i think you are overestimating the TMT's role in the past and now...these days they are little more than an 'association'trying to influence things politically...I am not sure how much real support or influence they have...In the past they did their best to keep the TCs away from the GCs and on the path of Taksim (Partition),but even then the average TC had little fear of them...They were our heroes,our protectors from the feared EOKA...As a child I was more afraid of my grandmother than of the TMT... I've told this story a few times...The TMT via their Youth Association (Genclik Teskilati) tried to stop people from speaking Cypriot Greek...There was a fine of 20 shillings for each Greek word uttered...And the children were supposed to spy on their families and report to the local TMT man...well,my grandmothers first language was Greek,(I still havent figured out how that came about,most probably her family descended from converted GCs!) and she spoke only Greek at home,but i wouldn't dream of dobbing her in...She had a special punishment for dobbers,made them eat red hot chillies...

There was of course a serious,menacing side to the TMT,and they did assassinate those they considered a danger to their cause (they called them traitors of course!). But there was also a lot of thugs in the TMT who used their position to get even with their personal enemies...I feel the TMT was more of a psychological force for both the TCs and the GCs...They often grandstood and bluffed their ways out of corners,and was not as effective as people now believe...It is a shame of course that the criminal elements among them went unpunished,and some even acquired hero status,very much like the original EOKA members...





_________________

Nice to hear from you Bir, thanks.

Actually I spent a couple of hours researching TMT on the Internet. It would appear TMT is involved in numerous international activities, not just Cyprus. These guys are everywhere, Europe, Asia & the Mid-East. By many accounts TMT is active.

Considering Denktas was one of the TMT founders, one would think the situation could have been different without a possible influence or "flavour"
coming from TMT supporters.

Having said that, I am wondering about the legality of TMT when the northern part of Cyprus joins the EU. What is your gut feeling about this? Would it be fair to assume you would like to see TMT out of the picture?
100

I like these responses. We need more like it

You mean a bunch of Tourkous exchanging daydreams?

You have nothing but negative aptitude Oracle. I thought Georgios was GC.

Any GC who disagrees with the hellenic view of life is hence known as Turkos. It's the biggest insult you can throw at a GC. They don't come any bigger than our Oracle.

I hope the GCs leaders don't have the aptitude as Oracle have for a all the GCs sake otherwise nothing will ever happen.

Unfortunately the people with real power in the south have the same mentality as our Oracle.