Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Thanks for your comments Bir. I have been reading all your posting and responses carefully... you are an excellent debater indeed.

Al of the above items can be "fair game" for discussion. Clearly, all this would never happen if EOKA never existed. The TMT was a counter to EOKA's objectives, a way to defend the TC minority existence. You guys had to respond fearing the worst... I totally understand it. Needless to say both GCs and TCs committed violent crimes against each other, a "normal" necessary evil in an uprising situation of any nation in the world (history has many examples). Despite all this, a fragile independence and the ousting of the Brits was a real fact. The "new" RoC was born but with many defects... definitely not perfect. EOKA was dissolved soon after.

So here is the problem.

The TCs maintained fear of more attacks from the GCs. As a result, the TMT kept growing on that fear. At first it would seem to be the right thing to do, strengthen TMT to counter the GCs "aggression" and protect the TC minority. No one would imagine that TMT was a bad idea. As the years went by, the TCs realized that TMT is the enemy within but it was too late. TMT was calling the shots then and still does, to this day. TMT was born to counter fear but now thrives on imposing fear to it's own people.
Furthermore, TMT plays an important role in Turkish politics and has great influence in every day life ot the TCs. Truly, I am convinced TMT is a major obstacle to a fair solution of the Cyprus problem. As far as Enosis is concerned, we all know now this target is "dead in the water".

I invite you to elaborate on the above, particularly on the TMT as an entity. I have the impression that any TMT related threads may be "out of bounds" on this forum. If this is true your silence to this issue is perfectly understood.

Georgios100

And I thank you sincerely,Georgio,for your sensible and measured response...You are open and constructive,and I have no doubt if all the GCs here were like you,we would be a lot closer to mutual understanding and respect...

To be honest,i think you are overestimating the TMT's role in the past and now...these days they are little more than an 'association'trying to influence things politically...I am not sure how much real support or influence they have...In the past they did their best to keep the TCs away from the GCs and on the path of Taksim (Partition),but even then the average TC had little fear of them...They were our heroes,our protectors from the feared EOKA...As a child I was more afraid of my grandmother than of the TMT... I've told this story a few times...The TMT via their Youth Association (Genclik Teskilati) tried to stop people from speaking Cypriot Greek...There was a fine of 20 shillings for each Greek word uttered...And the children were supposed to spy on their families and report to the local TMT man...well,my grandmothers first language was Greek,(I still havent figured out how that came about,most probably her family descended from converted GCs!) and she spoke only Greek at home,but i wouldn't dream of dobbing her in...She had a special punishment for dobbers,made them eat red hot chillies...

There was of course a serious,menacing side to the TMT,and they did assassinate those they considered a danger to their cause (they called them traitors of course!). But there was also a lot of thugs in the TMT who used their position to get even with their personal enemies...I feel the TMT was more of a psychological force for both the TCs and the GCs...They often grandstood and bluffed their ways out of corners,and was not as effective as people now believe...It is a shame of course that the criminal elements among them went unpunished,and some even acquired hero status,very much like the original EOKA members...





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[BirKibrisli]

Now answer the question I asked about the Greeks in Turkey. You are trying to avoid it, a sign that shows that you realize the double standards you want to force against us and you are trying to find some way to avoid the question.

You say "Cyprus is not Greece", then also explain to me why Constantinople should be Turkish, by using the same set of rules. Can you do that? Because if we use the same set of rules that you use for Cyprus, Constantinople should be an independent state, with Greeks and Turks as equal partners.

Piratis,I hinted at the answer but you refuse to understand...
Constantinople was conquered in 1453 and it has been the political, cultural and spiritual centre ot the Ottomans and the modern Turkish republic ever since...Constantinople has evolved over hundreds of years into the Turkish Republic...Cyprus has never been part of Greece since the beginning of recorded history...She has been ruled by many foreign powers,the last 2 being the British and the Ottomans...If anything it evolved into a multiethnic country whose ownership was disputed by all interested parties...You cannot compare the TCs to the Greeks of Constantinople,by any strech of imagination...That will not stop you of course..as I said it is obvious what your problem is now...You still consider the TCs as Ottoman remnants who should pay for the real and imaginary crimes of the Ottomans...As I said above,this makes you very dangerous in my eyes...I will not turn my back on you if we ever meet...

[erolz3]

Unless you embrace the indigenous Cypriots you don’t stand a chance of surviving here.

Well as much as I hate to do this to you.

Indigenous - originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country

Unless Greek culture originated in Cyprus it can not be said to be indigenous to Cyprus at least by the dicitonary defintion of indigenous.

Greek culture, as far as it can be singularised, is something that originated outside cyprus and came to Cyprus from outside Cyprus and thus can not be said to be indigenous.

Geneticaly you may be related to indigenous cypriots that no longer exist culturaly to some degree or other, just as I may be too, but culturaly Greek culture is something that came from outside Cyprus and replaced all and any indigenous Cypriot culture.

I would quite like to embrace the culture of indigenous cypriots, but unfortunately Greek culture wiped it out so completely and so long ago we have very little real information as to what that culture consisted of.

[BirKibrisli]

Unless you embrace the indigenous Cypriots you don’t stand a chance of surviving here.

Well as much as I hate to do this to you.

Indigenous - originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country

Unless Greek culture originated in Cyprus it can not be said to be indigenous to Cyprus at least by the dicitonary defintion of indigenous.

Greek culture, as far as it can be singularised, is something that originated outside cyprus and came to Cyprus from outside Cyprus and thus can not be said to be indigenous.

Geneticaly you may be related to indigenous cypriots that no longer exist culturaly to some degree or other, just as I may be too, but culturaly Greek culture is something that came from outside Cyprus and replaced all and any indigenous Cypriot culture.

I would quite like to embrace the culture of indigenous cypriots, but unfortunately Greek culture wiped it out so completely and so long ago we have very little real information as to what that culture consisted of.

Oh,dear,oh,dear...You might have just destroyed GR's reason d'etre,Erol...
Shame on you...

[Piratis]

Now answer the question I asked about the Greeks in Turkey. You are trying to avoid it, a sign that shows that you realize the double standards you want to force against us and you are trying to find some way to avoid the question.

You say "Cyprus is not Greece", then also explain to me why Constantinople should be Turkish, by using the same set of rules. Can you do that? Because if we use the same set of rules that you use for Cyprus, Constantinople should be an independent state, with Greeks and Turks as equal partners.

Piratis,I hinted at the answer but you refuse to understand...
Constantinople was conquered in 1453 and it has been the political, cultural and spiritual centre ot the Ottomans and the modern Turkish republic ever since...Constantinople has evolved over hundreds of years into the Turkish Republic...Cyprus has never been part of Greece since the beginning of recorded history...She has been ruled by many foreign powers,the last 2 being the British and the Ottomans...If anything it evolved into a multiethnic country whose ownership was disputed by all interested parties...You cannot compare the TCs to the Greeks of Constantinople,by any strech of imagination...That will not stop you of course..as I said it is obvious what your problem is now...You still consider the TCs as Ottoman remnants who should pay for the real and imaginary crimes of the Ottomans...As I said above,this makes you very dangerous in my eyes...I will not turn my back on you if we ever meet...

Constantinople was founded by Greeks and it was the capital of the Byzantine empire for far longer than it has been under Turkish rule. It is also the center of the Greek Orthodox church. In addition to that it is big with a lot of population. These facts make it an ideal case for a separate independent state with equal partnership between Greeks and Turks.

And Constantinople was just one example. You can take any other city or territory or island. If you want an island, then you can take Imbros as an example, same thing.

The fact is that wherever the Turks are the majority, that territory is fine to be part of the Turkish state, regardless of what the Greek population of that territory wants. But when the Turks are the minority, then you use a completely different set of rules and you invent a million of lame excuses to justify your unfair demands. The double standards you apply are more than obvious.

[Piratis]

Unless you embrace the indigenous Cypriots you don’t stand a chance of surviving here.

Well as much as I hate to do this to you.

Indigenous - originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country

Unless Greek culture originated in Cyprus it can not be said to be indigenous to Cyprus at least by the dicitonary defintion of indigenous.

Greek culture, as far as it can be singularised, is something that originated outside cyprus and came to Cyprus from outside Cyprus and thus can not be said to be indigenous.

Geneticaly you may be related to indigenous cypriots that no longer exist culturaly to some degree or other, just as I may be too, but culturaly Greek culture is something that came from outside Cyprus and replaced all and any indigenous Cypriot culture.

I would quite like to embrace the culture of indigenous cypriots, but unfortunately Greek culture wiped it out so completely and so long ago we have very little real information as to what that culture consisted of.

Here we go with more lies created by the butchers who committed the Armenian and several other genocides against millions.

The Mycenaeans came at a time when the island was still mostly uninhabited and they lived together along with other people who also came to Cyprus from elsewhere (it might come as a surprise to you, but nobody grew out of the land of Cyprus). Gradually (over several centuries) the different people mixed together and the result is us, not you, because you were imported to Cyprus several 1000s years later and you showed no desire to assimilate with the locals.

Also, the Mycenaeans came to Cyprus several centuries before the creation of the Greek Civilization. Cyprus was not a destination of the Greek Civilization, but in fact one of the origins of this civilization. In fact even the Greek Alphabet was probably created by Greek Cypriots, at a time when mainland Greece was still in Dark Ages.

A classics and linguistics scholar has found a bridge between the pre-alphabetic scripts of the ancient Greeks of Cyprus and the Greek alphabet -- and argues that the Mediterranean island is therefore most likely the place where the Greek alphabet was invented.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 151297.php

[erolz3]

The Mycenaeans came at a time when the island was still mostly uninhabited and they lived together along with other people who also came to Cyprus from elsewhere (it might come as a surprise to you, but nobody grew out of the land of Cyprus).

Mostly uninhabited. Inhabited none the less and with a prior people with a non greek culture.

Gradually (over several centuries) the different people mixed together and the result is us, not you, because you were imported to Cyprus several 1000s years later and you showed no desire to assimilate with the locals.

Over time the Greek culture that came from outside Cyprus replaced the prior culture of the people there before.

As far as us and you go we are more geneticaly similar to each other than to either mainland Greeks or Turks. It is only culturaly that we differ.

Also, the Mycenaeans came to Cyprus several centuries before the creation of the Greek Civilization. Cyprus was not a destination of the Greek Civilization, but in fact one of the origins of this civilization.

How can a culture originate in more than one place ?

If Greek culture did originate in Cyprus then by defnition it did not originate anywhere else and should by rights be called cypriot culture.

Here we go with more lies created by the butchers who committed the Armenian and several other genocides against millions.

Despite your histironic ranting, what I have said is based on logic and standard definitions of indigenous and originate, nothing more, so please calm down.

[Get Real!]

Unless you embrace the indigenous Cypriots you don’t stand a chance of surviving here.

Well as much as I hate to do this to you.

Indigenous - originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country

Unless Greek culture originated in Cyprus it can not be said to be indigenous to Cyprus at least by the dicitonary defintion of indigenous.

Greek culture, as far as it can be singularised, is something that originated outside cyprus and came to Cyprus from outside Cyprus and thus can not be said to be indigenous.

Geneticaly you may be related to indigenous cypriots that no longer exist culturaly to some degree or other, just as I may be too, but culturaly Greek culture is something that came from outside Cyprus and replaced all and any indigenous Cypriot culture.

I would quite like to embrace the culture of indigenous cypriots, but unfortunately Greek culture wiped it out so completely and so long ago we have very little real information as to what that culture consisted of.

That’s all based on your assumption that Cypriots are Greek; something I’m sure Piratis will agree with you and you’ll start holding hands!

[YFred]

Now answer the question I asked about the Greeks in Turkey. You are trying to avoid it, a sign that shows that you realize the double standards you want to force against us and you are trying to find some way to avoid the question.

You say "Cyprus is not Greece", then also explain to me why Constantinople should be Turkish, by using the same set of rules. Can you do that? Because if we use the same set of rules that you use for Cyprus, Constantinople should be an independent state, with Greeks and Turks as equal partners.

Piratis,I hinted at the answer but you refuse to understand...
Constantinople was conquered in 1453 and it has been the political, cultural and spiritual centre ot the Ottomans and the modern Turkish republic ever since...Constantinople has evolved over hundreds of years into the Turkish Republic...Cyprus has never been part of Greece since the beginning of recorded history...She has been ruled by many foreign powers,the last 2 being the British and the Ottomans...If anything it evolved into a multiethnic country whose ownership was disputed by all interested parties...You cannot compare the TCs to the Greeks of Constantinople,by any strech of imagination...That will not stop you of course..as I said it is obvious what your problem is now...You still consider the TCs as Ottoman remnants who should pay for the real and imaginary crimes of the Ottomans...As I said above,this makes you very dangerous in my eyes...I will not turn my back on you if we ever meet...

Constantinople was founded by Greeks and it was the capital of the Byzantine empire for far longer than it has been under Turkish rule. It is also the center of the Greek Orthodox church. In addition to that it is big with a lot of population. These facts make it an ideal case for a separate independent state with equal partnership between Greeks and Turks.

And Constantinople was just one example. You can take any other city or territory or island. If you want an island, then you can take Imbros as an example, same thing.

The fact is that wherever the Turks are the majority, that territory is fine to be part of the Turkish state, regardless of what the Greek population of that territory wants. But when the Turks are the minority, then you use a completely different set of rules and you invent a million of lame excuses to justify your unfair demands. The double standards you apply are more than obvious.

You mean Istanbul surely. Yeah thet bloody Mehmet was named Fatih for obvious reasons for civilising Istanbul.

[Piratis]

The Mycenaeans came at a time when the island was still mostly uninhabited and they lived together along with other people who also came to Cyprus from elsewhere (it might come as a surprise to you, but nobody grew out of the land of Cyprus).

Mostly uninhabited. Inhabited none the less and with a prior people with a non greek culture.

What a lame argument. Humans existed on this planet for 200.000 years. You are trying to claim that Cyprus is not Greek because a few pre-historic people inhabited the island as it is the case in all other parts of the world. If this argmument makes Cyprus non-Greek then it makes Greece non-Greek, it makes France non French, Germany non-German etc. And yet you will claim that Asia Minor is Turkish just because the Turks occupy it for a few centuries although the same place was not just inhabited by pre-historic people but it was even the center of other very big civilizations.

Gradually (over several centuries) the different people mixed together and the result is us, not you, because you were imported to Cyprus several 1000s years later and you showed no desire to assimilate with the locals.

Over time the Greek culture that came from outside Cyprus replaced the prior culture of the people there before.

You are wrong. You are talking as if the "Greek Culture" was something ready made that was imported. This is not the case. The Greek Culture was something that evolved over 1000s of years (and still evolves) and Cyprus was one of the important places where this evolutions accured right from the more early stages.

As far as us and you go we are more geneticaly similar to each other than to either mainland Greeks or Turks. It is only culturaly that we differ.

This is in direct contradiction with historical references that many other TCs present in the forum.

Also, the Mycenaeans came to Cyprus several centuries before the creation of the Greek Civilization. Cyprus was not a destination of the Greek Civilization, but in fact one of the origins of this civilization.

How can a culture originate in more than one place ?

If Greek culture did originate in Cyprus then by defnition it did not originate anywhere else and should by rights be called cypriot culture.

The Greek culture originates from Greek world, and the Greek world includes Cyprus.

If by "one place" you mean a single city or village, then you are wrong. Several places within the Greek world contributed to the creation of the Greek Culture over a period of 1000s of years. A culture is not something to be created in a single point in time and space.

When the Mycenaeans came to Cyprus there was not even any "Greek culture" or "Greek civilization" yet. This was something that was created later and gradually with the contribution of many places, including Cyprus.

Here we go with more lies created by the butchers who committed the Armenian and several other genocides against millions.

Despite your histironic ranting, what I have said is based on logic and standard definitions of indigenous and originate, nothing more, so please calm down.

Unfortunately your logic is based on your own culture and based on it you are trying to make assumptions about ours.

Yes, the Turks probably never founded a single city. They would just invade and conquer the cities of others. But this is not the case with the Greeks. The Greeks founded their own cities. And in those separate city states, spread over several different locations, is where the Greek Civilization evolved. It was not like the Ottoman empire where there was a single center.