Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Must agree with you there, taksim was a goal just like enosis was. Question is when is a minority allowed to dictate to an entire population what will happen to it. It always amazes me that TC's here will argue that despite being a majority the GC's had no right to decide on enosis for the entire island, and yet it is perfectly fine for the minority to decide on partition for the entire island

Taksim was a goal to counteract ENOSIS,DT...You have to admit this...Without the long time and open dream of Enosis with Greece you'd never have had Taksim...I am still to hear one GC here admitting to this...Oh,maybe Pyro did,but i am not sure...

Your question "When is a minority allowed..." is easy to answer...When they feel their very physical existence is threatened...I know you won't accept this,and I will accept that their fears were somewhat overblown,but they truly believed it,DT...And their solution was to be allowed to decide their own fate,if you like...Your Enosis would infringe totally on their lives,their Taksim would only infringe on the lives of the minority of the GCs...Put yourself in the TCs shoes,back in the heady days of the 50s...How else would you have reacted when your compartiots wanted to join a country you considered as the "archenemy"...??? Please lets have some perspective here...The TCs were very much cornered and they only had one way out...They grabbed it like a drowning person would grab a snake...Time you appreciated this point...

Bir I'll deal with one of the points here cause the rest need some thought.

.Your Enosis would infringe totally on their lives,their Taksim would only infringe on the lives of the minority of the GCs

180,000 which were affected by taksim is a number larger than the entire population of tc's. Now say enosis would have ocurred. Do you think the reprecussions to the TC's would have been: homes confiscated and expelled from the island? Cause that implausible far fetched scenario is exactly what happened to the GC's.

So here we are discussing what if's about the dangers that the tc's could have faced had enosis progressed, dangers which have been realised for the GC's.

This is the crux of the matter Bir. WHile you talk about the theoretical dangers the tc's escaped, we're still in argument despite the GC's having experienced your worse enosis nightmare in practical terms.

Yes,180,000 is larger than the TC population but in relative terms,it is still about 33% of the GC population at the time (500,000)...A "minority "of GCs is right..DT...You still don't understand,mate..It is not what would've happened but what the TCs feared would have happened that counted...Most thought they would be put against a wall and shot,if they were lucky...Women and girls had their own fears...I know it seems incredible now,but think back to the 50s and the charged atmosphere and all that tension.... Personally I think it would've been very difficult for the TCs at first,till all the grudges were satisfied, all the personal accounts settled...Then they would've been treated as second class citizens,most probably not be allowed to call themselves "Turkish",and probably discouraged to speak Turkish in public...What would've happened to the TCs under the fascist Junta from 1967 onwards we can only think about with dread...

And you seem to be forgetting that long before 1974 ,up to 30,000 (a quarter of the TC population) have had to abandon their ancestral homes and lands,and most forced in to exile too...And please don't tell me TMT is responsible,i know you know better...

[Piratis]

Erol, it was your choice to come to an island with a Greek population. When you were first occupying Cyprus and all other Greek territories and islands and transfering your settlers here you probably thought that the Greeks would never be free and that you would be exploiting us forever.

This was your mistake. Otherwise you would have realized that the Greeks would one day form their own Greek state which would include all Greek territories (and not 10000 separate small states) and that you would have to live in this Greek state as an ethnic minority.

I am still waiting from you (or anybody else) to tell me what was the difference between Cyprus and any other Greek island or territory.

I would've thought the answer is obvious,Piratis...All the others didn't have a choice...We did...And we took it,and Cyprus today is an independent Republic,of sorts, given that one of the founding partners is missing!

Exactly Bir. So you would do as much as you could.

During Ottoman rule you could keep the whole of Cyprus without giving any voice to the majority of the population, and that is what you did. Why didn't you give Cyprus its independence back then?

In the cases of the Imbros and Tenedos islands which also had a Greek majority and a Turkish minority, you didn't make those islands independent, you kept them as part of Turkey and you gradually annihilated the Greek majority, just because you could.

Even in the 50s you didn't even think of independence. It was Makarios who first proposed it. What you wanted was to annihilate us from half of our island and achieve partition.

So spare us the crap that you supposedly wanted independence. What you always wanted is to get as much as you can on our expense.

Piratis....You need to get some grip on reality...That is how history unfolds...Nobody gives anything to anybody on a plate...Greeks and GCs did what they could too..Greece was ruled by the Ottomans for hundreds of years...As soon as the Greeks felt strong enough they did what they could to get out of the Ottoman yoke...Same thing in Cyprus...You thought you could achieve Enosis with Greece...You did all you could to get there...What did you expect the TCs to do??? Say,oh you poor GCs,you suffered an awful lot in Ottoman hands,now it is our turn..We will let put ourselves under The Greek yoke,and you can stick it to us any time you want??? Is that what you expected??? If you did you were deluded...We did all we could to prevent finding ourselves under the Greek yoke..And today you (not us,YOU) are enjoying the fruits of our efforts...Cyprus is not a backward Greek province but a thriving independent Republic minus the people who made it all possible...Try seeing it from that angle and it will make sense to you too...

So I guess you approve the Apartheid in South Africa as well. The White minority there was right to get as much as they could, including racist discriminations against the majority of the population, just because they could. Why should they accept to be a minority among blacks, especially since it is known that many blacks hate them for the hardships the Whites have caused to them. Right Bir?

I am sorry that you don't realize the difference between you invading us and forcing us to be under Turkish rule as second category people, and us liberating our island from the foreign invaders, and making every Cypriot individual (including you) an equal citizen of either a Greek Republic of a Cypriot Republic.

And lets face it. Deep down your problem is not union with Greece. Deep down your problem is losing the Ottoman style privileges you enjoyed on our expense for centuries and instead be equal Cypriots as individuals, and an ethnic minority as a community. This is something you wouldn't accept regardless if Cyprus was part of the Greek Republic or if Cyprus was an independent country. And history proves this fact.

So if you don't like the fact that you are an ethnic minority among ethnic Greeks then you should blame your ancestors for bringing you here, not us. Remember that it is you who came to this island to oppress and exploit us. All we ever fought for was the freedom of our island from the foreign invaders.

As far as your last comment, that supposedly Cyprus is better of because it is "independent", I disagree. The foreign Imperialists forced Cyprus to be "independent" so they would isolate Cyprus from the rest of Greece since in this way it would be easier for them to manipulate our island. Independence has its positive aspects, even this fake "independence" that we were given, but what we gave up was the security of our island. If Cyprus was part of the Greek state it would be much harder for Turkey to invade another NATO state. This is why other Greek islands much closer to Turkey are much safer than we are.

[BirKibrisli]

Erol, it was your choice to come to an island with a Greek population. When you were first occupying Cyprus and all other Greek territories and islands and transfering your settlers here you probably thought that the Greeks would never be free and that you would be exploiting us forever.

This was your mistake. Otherwise you would have realized that the Greeks would one day form their own Greek state which would include all Greek territories (and not 10000 separate small states) and that you would have to live in this Greek state as an ethnic minority.

I am still waiting from you (or anybody else) to tell me what was the difference between Cyprus and any other Greek island or territory.

I would've thought the answer is obvious,Piratis...All the others didn't have a choice...We did...And we took it,and Cyprus today is an independent Republic,of sorts, given that one of the founding partners is missing!

Exactly Bir. So you would do as much as you could.

During Ottoman rule you could keep the whole of Cyprus without giving any voice to the majority of the population, and that is what you did. Why didn't you give Cyprus its independence back then?

In the cases of the Imbros and Tenedos islands which also had a Greek majority and a Turkish minority, you didn't make those islands independent, you kept them as part of Turkey and you gradually annihilated the Greek majority, just because you could.

Even in the 50s you didn't even think of independence. It was Makarios who first proposed it. What you wanted was to annihilate us from half of our island and achieve partition.

So spare us the crap that you supposedly wanted independence. What you always wanted is to get as much as you can on our expense.

Piratis....You need to get some grip on reality...That is how history unfolds...Nobody gives anything to anybody on a plate...Greeks and GCs did what they could too..Greece was ruled by the Ottomans for hundreds of years...As soon as the Greeks felt strong enough they did what they could to get out of the Ottoman yoke...Same thing in Cyprus...You thought you could achieve Enosis with Greece...You did all you could to get there...What did you expect the TCs to do??? Say,oh you poor GCs,you suffered an awful lot in Ottoman hands,now it is our turn..We will let put ourselves under The Greek yoke,and you can stick it to us any time you want??? Is that what you expected??? If you did you were deluded...We did all we could to prevent finding ourselves under the Greek yoke..And today you (not us,YOU) are enjoying the fruits of our efforts...Cyprus is not a backward Greek province but a thriving independent Republic minus the people who made it all possible...Try seeing it from that angle and it will make sense to you too...

So I guess you approve the Apartheid in South Africa as well. The White minority there was right to get as much as they could, including racist discriminations against the majority of the population, just because they could. Why should they accept to be a minority among blacks, especially since it is known that many blacks hate them for the hardships the Whites have caused to them. Right Bir?

I am sorry that you don't realize the difference between you invading us and forcing us to be under Turkish rule as second category people, and us liberating our island from the foreign invaders, and making every Cypriot individual (including you) an equal citizen of either a Greek Republic of a Cypriot Republic.

And lets face it. Deep down your problem is not union with Greece. Deep down your problem is losing the Ottoman style privileges you enjoyed on our expense for centuries and instead be equal Cypriots as individuals, and an ethnic minority as a community. This is something you wouldn't accept regardless if Cyprus was part of the Greek Republic or if Cyprus was an independent country. And history proves this fact.

So if you don't like the fact that you are an ethnic minority among ethnic Greeks then you should blame your ancestors for bringing you here, not us. Remember that it is you who came to this island to oppress and exploit us. All we ever fought for was the freedom of our island from the foreign invaders.

As far as your last comment, that supposedly Cyprus is better of because it is "independent", I disagree. The foreign Imperialists forced Cyprus to be "independent" so they would isolate Cyprus from the rest of Greece since in this way it would be easier for them to manipulate our island. Independence has its positive aspects, even this fake "independence" that we were given, but what we gave up was the security of our island. If Cyprus was part of the Greek state it would be much harder for Turkey to invade another NATO state. This is why other Greek islands much closer to Turkey are much safer than we are.

If you compare apples with oranges,you end up getting to the wrong conclusion,Piratis...Cyprus was nothing like South Africa... We were not trying to force our rule on you...That was the Otttomans,remember...We are not the Ottomans...We were a weak TC minority trying to exercise our own right to selfdetermination,because you guys wanted to define yourselves as Greeks instead of Cypriots...You wanted everything your way,and you stuffed it up big way...Even when we had the Republic and you had the majority of the seats in parliament and you had the Presidency for good,and 70-30 of everything,you were not satisfied...You thought you could bully your way through to what you wanted 100%...You only have yourselves to blame...Well,that is a bit mean...You did get some help from the British and the Greeks,and the TMT...But primarily you pulled the triggers yourselves most the time...if you excuse the expression...


We didn't invade you,Piratis....The Ottomans did over 400 years ago...Time you woke up to yourselves and stop blaming us for what empires did in those dark ages...You wanted to become Greeks not Cypriots because you wanted to take your revenge on the "Turks" as you saw us then and saw us now...So we fought back,not always above the belt,but with all our might and cunning...We were on a mission of survival,we didnt want to come under the dominance of our historical "archenemy"...You would've done exactly the same thing if you were us...

You need to face something...The average tc DID NOT ENJOY ANY PRIVILEDGES...OOPS...We worked hard ,most of us as poor labourers and un- skilled workers for hundreds of years,in the land we found ourselves withour our consent...My grandfather started off with a single donkey,and walked barefeet all around Paphos district buying and selling things to end up 50 years later as the biggest landlord in his area....In the meantime,he provided work for many unskilled GCs in his district...That was no priviledge but hard work...And we have had to abandon eveything and flee to the North,because YOU wanted to be Greeks and not Cypriots...Well,too late now,my friend...Stop blaming us for everything and look in the mirror for a change...

And ,don't worry,I do my share of blaming the Ottomans for coming to Cyprus...I curse them as much as you do,if not more...But it doesn't change anything...You have to change your hearts,Piratis,and stop being so bloody minded about the Ottoman times,and wanting to take revenge on us,400 years later...Just accept that it was ENOSIS which is the primary reason we are in this mess now...don't try to revise history... justify the unjustifyable...You cornered us like cats,and we did all we could to get out...Learn from your past mistakes instead of repeating them...Before more innocent Cypriots suffer more unnecessary pain and heartache...Please...

[ozlala]

The GCs freed Cyprus in 1960 with heroic actions - That's leadership
The TCs always wanted partition and still do - lack of vision.
The GCs are now Europeans in every legal way - That's leadership
The TCs are at no man's land thanks to their leaders - Lack of vision
The GCs achieved prosperity and high standard of living - That's leadership
The TCs have fallen behind economically due to Ethic ideology - lack of vision
The GCs shall continue to move forward with or without the TCs - That's leadership
The TCs only choice is to join the GCs because your leaders lack vision.

1974 war, enosis, EOKA, TMT etc is the past, over & done with. Moving forward is the issue here, enough arguments. To my fellow Cypriots (TCs), get your act together, tell your leaders what has to be done and stop whining about the past. Winning a war is one thing, loosing prosperity is everything. Don't blame your current living conditions on the GCs. You wanted this mess, so now you have to clean it up. Now if this happens - That's leadership.

Both GCs & TCs should be together as one people into this community called Europe. By doing this, ENOSIS, the big looming issue, is difused.
TCs wont have to worry about it any more. Get the troops out and sit on the table to sort things out with a European attitude. Afterall, you want to be Europeans, wright?

Georgios100

Two can play the same game,Georgio...

The GCs got rid of the British in 1960 by signing an agreement they never intended to keep..... That is deception

The GCs wanted to gift Cyprus to Greece via Enosis... that is unpatriotic and trecherous

The GCs did all they could to chase the TCs out of power and into enclaves during 1963-74.... that is betrayal...

The GCs stole power from their minority partners and got the big powers to sanction their theft by hook or by crook... that is greed and opportunism

The TCs opposed Enosis with Greece and put their lives on the line... that is heroism and patriotism

The TCs suffered greatly at all times to stand up to those GCs who wanted to betray their own country... that is unselfishness and self-sacrifice

The TCs are still suffering for their heroic act of gifting all Cypriots an independent and proud Republic they are still locked out of... that is injustice and immoralilty

The GCs should show some real empathy and compassion for their TC compatriots and invite them back to share the Republic they were instrumental in creating... that would be miraclous insight and generosity...

What say you,Georgio???

Well put BirKibrisli. you are so spot on

[georgios100]

The GCs freed Cyprus in 1960 with heroic actions - That's leadership
The TCs always wanted partition and still do - lack of vision.
The GCs are now Europeans in every legal way - That's leadership
The TCs are at no man's land thanks to their leaders - Lack of vision
The GCs achieved prosperity and high standard of living - That's leadership
The TCs have fallen behind economically due to Ethic ideology - lack of vision
The GCs shall continue to move forward with or without the TCs - That's leadership
The TCs only choice is to join the GCs because your leaders lack vision.

1974 war, enosis, EOKA, TMT etc is the past, over & done with. Moving forward is the issue here, enough arguments. To my fellow Cypriots (TCs), get your act together, tell your leaders what has to be done and stop whining about the past. Winning a war is one thing, loosing prosperity is everything. Don't blame your current living conditions on the GCs. You wanted this mess, so now you have to clean it up. Now if this happens - That's leadership.

Both GCs & TCs should be together as one people into this community called Europe. By doing this, ENOSIS, the big looming issue, is difused.
TCs wont have to worry about it any more. Get the troops out and sit on the table to sort things out with a European attitude. Afterall, you want to be Europeans, wright?

Georgios100

Two can play the same game,Georgio...

The GCs got rid of the British in 1960 by signing an agreement they never intended to keep..... That is deception

The GCs wanted to gift Cyprus to Greece via Enosis... that is unpatriotic and trecherous

The GCs did all they could to chase the TCs out of power and into enclaves during 1963-74.... that is betrayal...

The GCs stole power from their minority partners and got the big powers to sanction their theft by hook or by crook... that is greed and opportunism

The TCs opposed Enosis with Greece and put their lives on the line... that is heroism and patriotism

The TCs suffered greatly at all times to stand up to those GCs who wanted to betray their own country... that is unselfishness and self-sacrifice

The TCs are still suffering for their heroic act of gifting all Cypriots an independent and proud Republic they are still locked out of... that is injustice and immorality

The GCs should show some real empathy and compassion for their TC compatriots and invite them back to share the Republic they were instrumental in creating... that would be miraculous insight and generosity...

What say you,Georgio???

Thanks for your comments Bir. I have been reading all your posting and responses carefully... you are an excellent debater indeed.

Al of the above items can be "fair game" for discussion. Clearly, all this would never happen if EOKA never existed. The TMT was a counter to EOKA's objectives, a way to defend the TC minority existence. You guys had to respond fearing the worst... I totally understand it. Needless to say both GCs and TCs committed violent crimes against each other, a "normal" necessary evil in an uprising situation of any nation in the world (history has many examples). Despite all this, a fragile independence and the ousting of the Brits was a real fact. The "new" RoC was born but with many defects... definitely not perfect. EOKA was dissolved soon after.

So here is the problem.

The TCs maintained fear of more attacks from the GCs. As a result, the TMT kept growing on that fear. At first it would seem to be the right thing to do, strengthen TMT to counter the GCs "aggression" and protect the TC minority. No one would imagine that TMT was a bad idea. As the years went by, the TCs realized that TMT is the enemy within but it was too late. TMT was calling the shots then and still does, to this day. TMT was born to counter fear but now thrives on imposing fear to it's own people.
Furthermore, TMT plays an important role in Turkish politics and has great influence in every day life ot the TCs. Truly, I am convinced TMT is a major obstacle to a fair solution of the Cyprus problem. As far as Enosis is concerned, we all know now this target is "dead in the water".

I invite you to elaborate on the above, particularly on the TMT as an entity. I have the impression that any TMT related threads may be "out of bounds" on this forum. If this is true your silence to this issue is perfectly understood.

Georgios100

[erolz3]

First you disclaim desire for enosis in the name of your family when you said

nobody in my extended family wanted Enosis

Then you present your 'new' definition of what enosis was / is.

Enosis with Greece was, likely, seen as simply freedom from outsiders, Turks and Brits. A Cyprus free, as in days of old, independent but Greek speaking and hence tied to Hellenism, as accepted by Classicists the world over. He who speaks Greek can find Greek wisdom and hence join the Hellenic fold.

So you see, Enosis was NOT a political union.

Enosis with Greece was/is a state of mind.

Clearly then enosis was not JUST a state of mind. If it were then it could have existed under ottoman rule and british rule without the need for struggle. Clearly it required physical things to be in place outside of just mind. Namely that GC were 'free'.

Enosis then was a state of mind that says, by your definition, the only way GC can be free, an essential part of enosis, is if 'outsiders' no longer have any say in Cyprus. It defines non Greek Cypriots as 'outsiders'. Your defnintion mirrors Makarios when it is claimed that he said in a speech in 1962

"Until this small Turkish community forming part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled, the duty of the heros of EOKA can never be considered as terminated"

This then is your 'state of mind' that is enosis and why it was and is, as an ideology, a state of mind, so devisive, destructive and undermining to the concept of a Cypriot nation, state and unitary people.

Enosis is indeed a state of mind - one that says that true cypriots are greek and non greeks living in cyprus are outsiders, foreigners and invaders. That says that Cypriots can only be free once any non greek cypriots have no say in the running of cyprus. It is a racist state of mind, that defines 'true cypriots' based on ethnicity and 'outsiders' based on ethnicity. In short it is a state of mind that has played a massive role in creating the mess that is Cyprus today.

[ozlala]

I really don't know where all these discussions are going to? I thought that this forum was set up so that Both communities can express reason.

So far we have given ourselves a history lesson. The way I see it. I have not seen any reason for the TCs to trust the GCs. They seem to be playing the same tune all the time.

It is the GC that wants to make a deal. I would imagine that our leaders are experiencing the same as we are.

My opinion is to keep away from any discussions and not give anything back. In time we will be recognized. We have Turkey we will not deny our mother land.

I don't understand why the Turkish troops need to leave Cyprus. After 1974 they did not fire a single shot, nor will they as long as GC behave. the Turkish Troops are our safeguards.

My last history lesson will be before the 60s TCs had more then one third of Cyprus land. The Attila Line was not drawn by the Turks. When it was done, it was done in according to the population. the Turks only implemented that. the TC were cheated out of their land by hook or by crook.

I would advise all my Turkish friends to get out of this forum and live the Greeks to shout as much as they like. we should stay strong and get our recognition we deserve.

I don't think I will stay on this forum any longer. I don't see any benefit.

[Piratis]

Erol, it was your choice to come to an island with a Greek population. When you were first occupying Cyprus and all other Greek territories and islands and transfering your settlers here you probably thought that the Greeks would never be free and that you would be exploiting us forever.

This was your mistake. Otherwise you would have realized that the Greeks would one day form their own Greek state which would include all Greek territories (and not 10000 separate small states) and that you would have to live in this Greek state as an ethnic minority.

I am still waiting from you (or anybody else) to tell me what was the difference between Cyprus and any other Greek island or territory.

I would've thought the answer is obvious,Piratis...All the others didn't have a choice...We did...And we took it,and Cyprus today is an independent Republic,of sorts, given that one of the founding partners is missing!

Exactly Bir. So you would do as much as you could.

During Ottoman rule you could keep the whole of Cyprus without giving any voice to the majority of the population, and that is what you did. Why didn't you give Cyprus its independence back then?

In the cases of the Imbros and Tenedos islands which also had a Greek majority and a Turkish minority, you didn't make those islands independent, you kept them as part of Turkey and you gradually annihilated the Greek majority, just because you could.

Even in the 50s you didn't even think of independence. It was Makarios who first proposed it. What you wanted was to annihilate us from half of our island and achieve partition.

So spare us the crap that you supposedly wanted independence. What you always wanted is to get as much as you can on our expense.

Piratis....You need to get some grip on reality...That is how history unfolds...Nobody gives anything to anybody on a plate...Greeks and GCs did what they could too..Greece was ruled by the Ottomans for hundreds of years...As soon as the Greeks felt strong enough they did what they could to get out of the Ottoman yoke...Same thing in Cyprus...You thought you could achieve Enosis with Greece...You did all you could to get there...What did you expect the TCs to do??? Say,oh you poor GCs,you suffered an awful lot in Ottoman hands,now it is our turn..We will let put ourselves under The Greek yoke,and you can stick it to us any time you want??? Is that what you expected??? If you did you were deluded...We did all we could to prevent finding ourselves under the Greek yoke..And today you (not us,YOU) are enjoying the fruits of our efforts...Cyprus is not a backward Greek province but a thriving independent Republic minus the people who made it all possible...Try seeing it from that angle and it will make sense to you too...

So I guess you approve the Apartheid in South Africa as well. The White minority there was right to get as much as they could, including racist discriminations against the majority of the population, just because they could. Why should they accept to be a minority among blacks, especially since it is known that many blacks hate them for the hardships the Whites have caused to them. Right Bir?

I am sorry that you don't realize the difference between you invading us and forcing us to be under Turkish rule as second category people, and us liberating our island from the foreign invaders, and making every Cypriot individual (including you) an equal citizen of either a Greek Republic of a Cypriot Republic.

And lets face it. Deep down your problem is not union with Greece. Deep down your problem is losing the Ottoman style privileges you enjoyed on our expense for centuries and instead be equal Cypriots as individuals, and an ethnic minority as a community. This is something you wouldn't accept regardless if Cyprus was part of the Greek Republic or if Cyprus was an independent country. And history proves this fact.

So if you don't like the fact that you are an ethnic minority among ethnic Greeks then you should blame your ancestors for bringing you here, not us. Remember that it is you who came to this island to oppress and exploit us. All we ever fought for was the freedom of our island from the foreign invaders.

As far as your last comment, that supposedly Cyprus is better of because it is "independent", I disagree. The foreign Imperialists forced Cyprus to be "independent" so they would isolate Cyprus from the rest of Greece since in this way it would be easier for them to manipulate our island. Independence has its positive aspects, even this fake "independence" that we were given, but what we gave up was the security of our island. If Cyprus was part of the Greek state it would be much harder for Turkey to invade another NATO state. This is why other Greek islands much closer to Turkey are much safer than we are.

If you compare apples with oranges,you end up getting to the wrong conclusion,Piratis...Cyprus was nothing like South Africa... We were not trying to force our rule on you...That was the Otttomans,remember...We are not the Ottomans...We were a weak TC minority trying to exercise our own right to selfdetermination,because you guys wanted to define yourselves as Greeks instead of Cypriots...You wanted everything your way,and you stuffed it up big way...Even when we had the Republic and you had the majority of the seats in parliament and you had the Presidency for good,and 70-30 of everything,you were not satisfied...You thought you could bully your way through to what you wanted 100%...You only have yourselves to blame...Well,that is a bit mean...You did get some help from the British and the Greeks,and the TMT...But primarily you pulled the triggers yourselves most the time...if you excuse the expression...


We didn't invade you,Piratis....The Ottomans did over 400 years ago...Time you woke up to yourselves and stop blaming us for what empires did in those dark ages...You wanted to become Greeks not Cypriots because you wanted to take your revenge on the "Turks" as you saw us then and saw us now...So we fought back,not always above the belt,but with all our might and cunning...We were on a mission of survival,we didnt want to come under the dominance of our historical "archenemy"...You would've done exactly the same thing if you were us...

You need to face something...The average tc DID NOT ENJOY ANY PRIVILEDGES...OOPS...We worked hard ,most of us as poor labourers and un- skilled workers for hundreds of years,in the land we found ourselves withour our consent...My grandfather started off with a single donkey,and walked barefeet all around Paphos district buying and selling things to end up 50 years later as the biggest landlord in his area....In the meantime,he provided work for many unskilled GCs in his district...That was no priviledge but hard work...And we have had to abandon eveything and flee to the North,because YOU wanted to be Greeks and not Cypriots...Well,too late now,my friend...Stop blaming us for everything and look in the mirror for a change...

And ,don't worry,I do my share of blaming the Ottomans for coming to Cyprus...I curse them as much as you do,if not more...But it doesn't change anything...You have to change your hearts,Piratis,and stop being so bloody minded about the Ottoman times,and wanting to take revenge on us,400 years later...Just accept that it was ENOSIS which is the primary reason we are in this mess now...don't try to revise history... justify the unjustifyable...You cornered us like cats,and we did all we could to get out...Learn from your past mistakes instead of repeating them...Before more innocent Cypriots suffer more unnecessary pain and heartache...Please...

My friend, we have been Greeks for 1000s of years and when you came to this island, without asking us, you already knew very well what we are. If you didn't like who we are then why did you come to our island?

Ethnic minorities do not have any separate right for self-determination so stop repeating nonsense. If you don't like the fact that you are an ethnic minority on this island blame your own ancestors, not us. The fact is that you are an ethnic minority, and your rights are the same as the rights of any other ethnic minority in any other country, namely your full human rights as individuals plus certain minority rights. Beyond you have no right whatsoever to tell to us what identity we should have, neither you have the right to determine where Cyprus should belong and where it shouldn't. These are not rights that ethnic minorities have.

If ethnic minorities were supposed to have such rights then the same rights would be given to the Turkish/Muslim minorities in Greece and Bulgaria, to the Greek minority in Turkey and to every other ethnic minority in any other country. None of those other minorities got the rights that you got on our expense by collaborating with foreign Imperialists.

As you said in your previous post "All the others didn't have a choice...We did". You had the chance to gain unfair privileges on our expense by collaborating with foreign Imperialists, and that is exactly what you did. Juts like the Whites in South Africa.

And you are right. You didn't have the chance the enjoy those privileges granded to you by the Imperialists. You were enjoying such privileges on our expense for 300+ years during your oppressive rule of our island, but don't expect that we will let you enjoy privileges on our expense ever again. If you start a war with the aim to gain on our expense then be sure that war will go on until you are defeated.

[Piratis]

I really don't know where all these discussions are going to? I thought that this forum was set up so that Both communities can express reason.

So far we have given ourselves a history lesson. The way I see it. I have not seen any reason for the TCs to trust the GCs. They seem to be playing the same tune all the time.

It is the GC that wants to make a deal. I would imagine that our leaders are experiencing the same as we are.

My opinion is to keep away from any discussions and not give anything back. In time we will be recognized. We have Turkey we will not deny our mother land.

I don't understand why the Turkish troops need to leave Cyprus. After 1974 they did not fire a single shot, nor will they as long as GC behave. the Turkish Troops are our safeguards.

My last history lesson will be before the 60s TCs had more then one third of Cyprus land. The Attila Line was not drawn by the Turks. When it was done, it was done in according to the population. the Turks only implemented that. the TC were cheated out of their land by hook or by crook.

I would advise all my Turkish friends to get out of this forum and live the Greeks to shout as much as they like. we should stay strong and get our recognition we deserve.

I don't think I will stay on this forum any longer. I don't see any benefit.

And a bit earlier yet you had 0% of this island. So?

If it was only GCs that needed a solution I am sure you wouldn't even bother to attend any negotiations. The truth is that you face the consequences of your crimes and illegalities and these consequences will keep getting more and more for both you and Turkey. So keep dreaming about recognition, because that is all you can do about it.

[Piratis]

First you disclaim desire for enosis in the name of your family when you said

nobody in my extended family wanted Enosis

Then you present your 'new' definition of what enosis was / is.

Enosis with Greece was, likely, seen as simply freedom from outsiders, Turks and Brits. A Cyprus free, as in days of old, independent but Greek speaking and hence tied to Hellenism, as accepted by Classicists the world over. He who speaks Greek can find Greek wisdom and hence join the Hellenic fold.

So you see, Enosis was NOT a political union.

Enosis with Greece was/is a state of mind.

Clearly then enosis was not JUST a state of mind. If it were then it could have existed under ottoman rule and british rule without the need for struggle. Clearly it required physical things to be in place outside of just mind. Namely that GC were 'free'.

Enosis then was a state of mind that says, by your definition, the only way GC can be free, an essential part of enosis, is if 'outsiders' no longer have any say in Cyprus. It defines non Greek Cypriots as 'outsiders'. Your defnintion mirrors Makarios when it is claimed that he said in a speech in 1962

"Until this small Turkish community forming part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled, the duty of the heros of EOKA can never be considered as terminated"

This then is your 'state of mind' that is enosis and why it was and is, as an ideology, a state of mind, so devisive, destructive and undermining to the concept of a Cypriot nation, state and unitary people.

Enosis is indeed a state of mind - one that says that true cypriots are greek and non greeks living in cyprus are outsiders, foreigners and invaders. That says that Cypriots can only be free once any non greek cypriots have no say in the running of cyprus. It is a racist state of mind, that defines 'true cypriots' based on ethnicity and 'outsiders' based on ethnicity. In short it is a state of mind that has played a massive role in creating the mess that is Cyprus today.

Nonsense as usual. Any non Greek Cypriots are simply ethnic minorities, and such ethnic minorities in Cyprus can be as free as any other ethnic minority in any other Greek island or territory or any other country, e.g. the Greek minority of Turkey. Nothing more and nothing less.

Are you saying that the Greek minority in Turkey is not free? Should every town in Turkey that has a Greek minority be a separate state and not part of Turkey in order for the Greek minority to be free?

In Cyprus the majority are ethnic Greek, and this has been the case for 1000s of years and it was something you knew full well when you choose to come to our island. Your community is an ethnic minority in Cyprus among a majority of Greeks, and this would be the case regardless if Cyprus is a separate state or part of the Greek Republic. Enosis or no enosis this fact does not change. You didn't need enosis to understand that we are ethnic Greeks and you are not (and therefore you are an ethnic minority).