Cyprus-Forum.com

[yorgozlu]

The GCs freed Cyprus in 1960 with heroic actions - That's leadership
The TCs always wanted partition and still do - lack of vision.
The GCs are now Europeans in every legal way - That's leadership
The TCs are at no man's land thanks to their leaders - Lack of vision
The GCs achieved prosperity and high standard of living - That's leadership
The TCs have fallen behind economically due to Ethic ideology - lack of vision
The GCs shall continue to move forward with or without the TCs - That's leadership
The TCs only choice is to join the GCs because your leaders lack vision.

1974 war, enosis, EOKA, TMT etc is the past, over & done with. Moving forward is the issue here, enough arguments. To my fellow Cypriots (TCs), get your act together, tell your leaders what has to be done and stop whining about the past. Winning a war is one thing, loosing prosperity is everything. Don't blame your current living conditions on the GCs. You wanted this mess, so now you have to clean it up. Now if this happens - That's leadership.

Both GCs & TCs should be together as one people into this community called Europe. By doing this, ENOSIS, the big looming issue, is difused.
TCs wont have to worry about it any more. Get the troops out and sit on the table to sort things out with a European attitude. Afterall, you want to be Europeans, wright?

Georgios100

"TCs wont have to worry about it any more"
Worry about WHAT?

[Oracle]

Maybe we need to define Enosis.

What the Turk-TCs "feared" from Enosis and what the average (95% ) GC actually believed Enosis meant for Cyprus, were probably two different things.

Enosis with Greece was, likely, seen as simply freedom from outsiders, Turks and Brits. A Cyprus free, as in days of old, independent but Greek speaking and hence tied to Hellenism, as accepted by Classicists the world over. He who speaks Greek can find Greek wisdom and hence join the Hellenic fold.

So you see, Enosis was NOT a political union.

Enosis with Greece was/is a state of mind.

This is why the Turks know they have failed in their attempt to prevent Enosis of Cyprus with Greece.

Our minds are ONE and our independent states are united together, forever, in the EU.

The TMT weren't preventing Enosis; they were preventing Independence of Cyprus.

[georgios100]

Maybe we need to define Enosis.

What the Turk-TCs "feared" from Enosis and what the average (95% ) GC actually believed Enosis meant for Cyprus, were probably two different things.

Enosis with Greece was, likely, seen as simply freedom from outsiders, Turks and Brits. A Cyprus free, as in days of old, independent but Greek speaking and hence tied to Hellenism, as accepted by Classicists the world over. He who speaks Greek can find Greek wisdom and hence join the Hellenic fold.

So you see, Enosis was NOT a political union.

Enosis with Greece was/is a state of mind.

This is why the Turks know they have failed in their attempt to prevent Enosis of Cyprus with Greece.

Our minds are ONE and our independent states are united together, forever, in the EU.

The TMT weren't preventing Enosis; they were preventing Independence of Cyprus.

Well spoken, thanks.

Both GCs & TCs want ENOSIS with the EU not mainland Greece. But we can speak Greek and the TCs can speak Turkish amongst the many languages spoken by the other European members.

Georgios100

[georgios100]

The GCs freed Cyprus in 1960 with heroic actions - That's leadership
The TCs always wanted partition and still do - lack of vision.
The GCs are now Europeans in every legal way - That's leadership
The TCs are at no man's land thanks to their leaders - Lack of vision
The GCs achieved prosperity and high standard of living - That's leadership
The TCs have fallen behind economically due to Ethic ideology - lack of vision
The GCs shall continue to move forward with or without the TCs - That's leadership
The TCs only choice is to join the GCs because your leaders lack vision.

1974 war, enosis, EOKA, TMT etc is the past, over & done with. Moving forward is the issue here, enough arguments. To my fellow Cypriots (TCs), get your act together, tell your leaders what has to be done and stop whining about the past. Winning a war is one thing, loosing prosperity is everything. Don't blame your current living conditions on the GCs. You wanted this mess, so now you have to clean it up. Now if this happens - That's leadership.

Both GCs & TCs should be together as one people into this community called Europe. By doing this, ENOSIS, the big looming issue, is difused.
TCs wont have to worry about it any more. Get the troops out and sit on the table to sort things out with a European attitude. Afterall, you want to be Europeans, wright?

Georgios100

"TCs wont have to worry about it any more"
Worry about WHAT?

Read the sentence before this one "ENOSIS, the big looming issue"

[BirKibrisli]

Erol, it was your choice to come to an island with a Greek population. When you were first occupying Cyprus and all other Greek territories and islands and transfering your settlers here you probably thought that the Greeks would never be free and that you would be exploiting us forever.

This was your mistake. Otherwise you would have realized that the Greeks would one day form their own Greek state which would include all Greek territories (and not 10000 separate small states) and that you would have to live in this Greek state as an ethnic minority.

I am still waiting from you (or anybody else) to tell me what was the difference between Cyprus and any other Greek island or territory.

I would've thought the answer is obvious,Piratis...All the others didn't have a choice...We did...And we took it,and Cyprus today is an independent Republic,of sorts, given that one of the founding partners is missing!

Exactly Bir. So you would do as much as you could.

During Ottoman rule you could keep the whole of Cyprus without giving any voice to the majority of the population, and that is what you did. Why didn't you give Cyprus its independence back then?

In the cases of the Imbros and Tenedos islands which also had a Greek majority and a Turkish minority, you didn't make those islands independent, you kept them as part of Turkey and you gradually annihilated the Greek majority, just because you could.

Even in the 50s you didn't even think of independence. It was Makarios who first proposed it. What you wanted was to annihilate us from half of our island and achieve partition.

So spare us the crap that you supposedly wanted independence. What you always wanted is to get as much as you can on our expense.

Piratis....You need to get some grip on reality...That is how history unfolds...Nobody gives anything to anybody on a plate...Greeks and GCs did what they could too..Greece was ruled by the Ottomans for hundreds of years...As soon as the Greeks felt strong enough they did what they could to get out of the Ottoman yoke...Same thing in Cyprus...You thought you could achieve Enosis with Greece...You did all you could to get there...What did you expect the TCs to do??? Say,oh you poor GCs,you suffered an awful lot in Ottoman hands,now it is our turn..We will let put ourselves under The Greek yoke,and you can stick it to us any time you want??? Is that what you expected??? If you did you were deluded...We did all we could to prevent finding ourselves under the Greek yoke..And today you (not us,YOU) are enjoying the fruits of our efforts...Cyprus is not a backward Greek province but a thriving independent Republic minus the people who made it all possible...Try seeing it from that angle and it will make sense to you too...

[BirKibrisli]

The GCs freed Cyprus in 1960 with heroic actions - That's leadership
The TCs always wanted partition and still do - lack of vision.
The GCs are now Europeans in every legal way - That's leadership
The TCs are at no man's land thanks to their leaders - Lack of vision
The GCs achieved prosperity and high standard of living - That's leadership
The TCs have fallen behind economically due to Ethic ideology - lack of vision
The GCs shall continue to move forward with or without the TCs - That's leadership
The TCs only choice is to join the GCs because your leaders lack vision.

1974 war, enosis, EOKA, TMT etc is the past, over & done with. Moving forward is the issue here, enough arguments. To my fellow Cypriots (TCs), get your act together, tell your leaders what has to be done and stop whining about the past. Winning a war is one thing, loosing prosperity is everything. Don't blame your current living conditions on the GCs. You wanted this mess, so now you have to clean it up. Now if this happens - That's leadership.

Both GCs & TCs should be together as one people into this community called Europe. By doing this, ENOSIS, the big looming issue, is difused.
TCs wont have to worry about it any more. Get the troops out and sit on the table to sort things out with a European attitude. Afterall, you want to be Europeans, wright?

Georgios100

Two can play the same game,Georgio...

The GCs got rid of the British in 1960 by signing an agreement they never intended to keep..... That is deception

The GCs wanted to gift Cyprus to Greece via Enosis... that is unpatriotic and trecherous

The GCs did all they could to chase the TCs out of power and into enclaves during 1963-74.... that is betrayal...

The GCs stole power from their minority partners and got the big powers to sanction their theft by hook or by crook... that is greed and opportunism

The TCs opposed Enosis with Greece and put their lives on the line... that is heroism and patriotism

The TCs suffered greatly at all times to stand up to those GCs who wanted to betray their own country... that is unselfishness and self-sacrifice

The TCs are still suffering for their heroic act of gifting all Cypriots an independent and proud Republic they are still locked out of... that is injustice and immoralilty

The GCs should show some real empathy and compassion for their TC compatriots and invite them back to share the Republic they were instrumental in creating... that would be miraclous insight and generosity...

What say you,Georgio???

[DT.]

The GCs freed Cyprus in 1960 with heroic actions - That's leadership

We stepped into a racist agreement that was unworkable. Thats lunacy.

The TCs always wanted partition and still do - lack of vision.

Must agree with you there, taksim was a goal just like enosis was. Question is when is a minority allowed to dictate to an entire population what will happen to it. It always amazes me that TC's here will argue that despite being a majority the GC's had no right to decide on enosis for the entire island, and yet it is perfectly fine for the minority to decide on partition for the entire island

The GCs are now Europeans in every legal way - That's leadership

Thats the help of Greece, Kranidiotis and our hard work rebuilding the economy after the invasion.

The TCs are at no man's land thanks to their leaders - Lack of vision

The tc's are at no mans land thanks to Turkey no one else. DOn't ever be fooled that a tc leader has any power other than certain municipality powers.

The GCs achieved prosperity and high standard of living - That's leadership

You already did this, quit boasting.

The TCs have fallen behind economically due to Ethic ideology - lack of vision

The tc's have fallen behind because they place a greater importance on recognition of 2 states than the economical and social well being of the people. Partition would still be effective with 40,000 troops if the tc's had fully integrated themselves into the economy and athletic life of the island. Recent example was FIFA's offer for the tc FA to organise a separate official league of Cyprus under the CFA. TC leaderdship felt it was more important to maintai this charade of independence rather than provide a future for the tc athletes and supporters.

The GCs shall continue to move forward with or without the TCs - That's leadership

Thats pragmatism not leadership.

The TCs only choice is to join the GCs because your leaders lack vision.

Considering the quality of GC politicians , I wouldn't blow our trumpet on this one.

[BirKibrisli]

Must agree with you there, taksim was a goal just like enosis was. Question is when is a minority allowed to dictate to an entire population what will happen to it. It always amazes me that TC's here will argue that despite being a majority the GC's had no right to decide on enosis for the entire island, and yet it is perfectly fine for the minority to decide on partition for the entire island

Taksim was a goal to counteract ENOSIS,DT...You have to admit this...Without the long time and open dream of Enosis with Greece you'd never have had Taksim...I am still to hear one GC here admitting to this...Oh,maybe Pyro did,but i am not sure...

Your question "When is a minority allowed..." is easy to answer...When they feel their very physical existence is threatened...I know you won't accept this,and I will accept that their fears were somewhat overblown,but they truly believed it,DT...And their solution was to be allowed to decide their own fate,if you like...Your Enosis would infringe totally on their lives,their Taksim would only infringe on the lives of the minority of the GCs...Put yourself in the TCs shoes,back in the heady days of the 50s...How else would you have reacted when your compartiots wanted to join a country you considered as the "archenemy"...??? Please lets have some perspective here...The TCs were very much cornered and they only had one way out...They grabbed it like a drowning person would grab a snake...Time you appreciated this point...

[DT.]

Must agree with you there, taksim was a goal just like enosis was. Question is when is a minority allowed to dictate to an entire population what will happen to it. It always amazes me that TC's here will argue that despite being a majority the GC's had no right to decide on enosis for the entire island, and yet it is perfectly fine for the minority to decide on partition for the entire island

Taksim was a goal to counteract ENOSIS,DT...You have to admit this...Without the long time and open dream of Enosis with Greece you'd never have had Taksim...I am still to hear one GC here admitting to this...Oh,maybe Pyro did,but i am not sure...

Your question "When is a minority allowed..." is easy to answer...When they feel their very physical existence is threatened...I know you won't accept this,and I will accept that their fears were somewhat overblown,but they truly believed it,DT...And their solution was to be allowed to decide their own fate,if you like...Your Enosis would infringe totally on their lives,their Taksim would only infringe on the lives of the minority of the GCs...Put yourself in the TCs shoes,back in the heady days of the 50s...How else would you have reacted when your compartiots wanted to join a country you considered as the "archenemy"...??? Please lets have some perspective here...The TCs were very much cornered and they only had one way out...They grabbed it like a drowning person would grab a snake...Time you appreciated this point...

Bir I'll deal with one of the points here cause the rest need some thought.

.Your Enosis would infringe totally on their lives,their Taksim would only infringe on the lives of the minority of the GCs

180,000 which were affected by taksim is a number larger than the entire population of tc's. Now say enosis would have ocurred. Do you think the reprecussions to the TC's would have been: homes confiscated and expelled from the island? Cause that implausible far fetched scenario is exactly what happened to the GC's.

So here we are discussing what if's about the dangers that the tc's could have faced had enosis progressed, dangers which have been realised for the GC's.

This is the crux of the matter Bir. WHile you talk about the theoretical dangers the tc's escaped, we're still in argument despite the GC's having experienced your worse enosis nightmare in practical terms.

[Oracle]

...Your Enosis would infringe totally on their lives,their Taksim would only infringe on the lives of the minority of the GCs....

Do you really believe only the 200,000 refugees have been touched by taksim? If you do, then it's because you only see the problem as one of "loss of personal property". As well as the losses of their homes, those GC refugees have also lost permanent, free access to nearly half their country, lost cultural inheritance from thousands of years, lost faith in the humanity of Turks*, lost faith in how quickly justice can set things right ... and of course all those latter things are lost to all not just the direct subjects of the ethnic cleansing. An ethnic cleansing and apartheid which is practiced on every Greek and Greek Cypriot by Turkey!

Contrast that with Enosis, if it was ever likely to have been sought fully, where the TCs would not have lost a single pebble!