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Looking for an Explanation

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:31 am

Kifeas
You are saying "we" and by that I suppose you mean both GCs and TCs. Setting aside what the other agendas that the GCs had chosen to pursue, can you explain us what other agendas the TCs have pursued?



I was referring to Enosis/Taksim..

Setting aside the fact that you are dramatising the conditions in which the TCs were in the pre-1974 period, especially between 1968-1974 in which they had the opportunity to move freely around Cyprus, get jobs, do businesses and utilise their properties


Hand on heart are you really being truthful about this perios of our history having lived it I seem to remember it very differently.

you did not just get a few extra candies but way more candies than your fair share. You left behind you in the south 414 thousand donums of land, half of which was hillside, dry, rocky and un-irrigable land, and you got 1,457 thousand donums of prime and fertile GC land in the north. Nearly 4 times more than you left in the south.


The price you pay for putting your hand in the sweetie jar my friend and overestimating your superiority over others...look at it from this perspective you could now be living in a Turkish run state..
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:41 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Kifeas
You are saying "we" and by that I suppose you mean both GCs and TCs. Setting aside what the other agendas that the GCs had chosen to pursue, can you explain us what other agendas the TCs have pursued?


I was referring to Enosis/Taksim..


It is nice that you now accept that your community shares part of the blame. Can you explain then to me what relationship does your above assertion have with the candies example that you gave us? In this example you blame only one side, for been the greedy and the bully one.
Viewpoint wrote:
Setting aside the fact that you are dramatising the conditions in which the TCs were in the pre-1974 period, especially between 1968-1974 in which they had the opportunity to move freely around Cyprus, get jobs, do businesses and utilise their properties


Hand on heart are you really being truthful about this perios of our history having lived it I seem to remember it very differently.

Yes Viewpoint! This has been the truth about this period, although I admit not to a perfect degree. Besides this truth, we were negotiating up until the “last hour” before the coup and the invasion, in order for your political rights to be re-established in the RoC government running. And we have almost agreed to the majority of all the important issues and only a few minor issues had not been resolved. So we were not at all the evil and greedy and bully people that you are trying to portray us, in order to justify the results of the Turkish invasion, the ethnic cleansing and the usurping of 200 thousand GC's properties. And yes, between 1968-1974, hardy any TC was heart, said aside murdered!

Although, as I admitted above, things weren't perfect during this period, we were at least trying to make them better and I am sure we would have succeeded in the end to close all our differences, had the invasion did not destroy everything. And it was a very good deal for your side as well, but instead you had chosen to abandon it and exploit to the maximum the "fait accompli" of the Turkish occupation, hoping for a much better deal, or in order to successfully implement your dated since 1950, partition aspirations.

Viewpoint wrote:
you did not just get a few extra candies but way more candies than your fair share. You left behind you in the south 414 thousand donums of land, half of which was hillside, dry, rocky and un-irrigable land, and you got 1,457 thousand donums of prime and fertile GC land in the north. Nearly 4 times more than you left in the south.


The price you pay for putting your hand in the sweetie jar my friend and overestimating your superiority over others...look at it from this perspective you could now be living in a Turkish run state..


This is what I call cynicism! And only if what you said was true! But is not!
I will not answer back with cynicism this time because what I will say might offend other TC forum members.
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:16 pm

Kifeas
It is nice that you now accept that your community shares part of the blame


If you took time to read my posts properly and absorb what I am saying I have always made it a point to say we messed up and that both sides are to blame without trying to apportion blame.

Can you explain then to me what relationship does your above assertion have with the candies example that you gave us? In this example you blame only one side, for been the greedy and the bully one.


1963 to 1974 period gave all the sweets to GCs that was the comparison I was making, having them is not placing blame but the fact that you werent sharing them fairly was, eg one for TCs 10 for GCs and even not really wanting to share the 1 sweet your real desire was not to share etc etc.

although I admit not to a perfect degree


very far from it, glad to hear at least you acknowledge this.

Besides this truth, we were negotiating up until the “last hour” before the coup and the invasion, in order for your political rights to be re-established in the RoC government running. And we have almost agreed to the majority of all the important issues and only a few minor issues had not been resolved. So we were not at all the evil and greedy and bully people that you are trying to portray us,


you make it sound like you were stgrangling us with your love, it was no bed of roses.
No you are not all evil bullies or greedy..

Although, as I admitted above, things weren't perfect during this period, we were at least trying to make them better and I am sure we would have succeeded in the end to close all our differences, had the invasion did not destroy everything. And it was a very good deal for your side as well, but instead you had chosen to abandon it and exploit to the maximum the "fait accompli" of the Turkish occupation, hoping for a much better deal, or in order to successfully implement your dated since 1950, partition aspirations.


You make it sound so simple and uncomplicated like we were all living in Disneyland and that we rushed things by inviting Turkey to arrive and mess things up for us otherwise we would have a better deal and living in harmony.

Why do you do that? we fucked up bad the years leading up to 1974 was hell for us and our only hope for survival was for Turkey to arrive and save us from a shallow grave otherwise over the last 31 years we would have been long forgotten....try and be honest with yourself first...its this sttitude that stokes the fire of mistrust between our communities.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:10 pm

Filitsa wrote: especially gabaston.


This is a perfect example of a meaningless one liner that should be deleted.You could at least say "Thank you all, especially Gabaston".See how much confussion you sparked, even Gabaston thought you were cursing him....

For further information look here:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus1566.html
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Postby Filitsa » Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:43 pm

I'm sorry you were confused, MicAtCyp. I was the one who started this thread in the form of a question. After reading several well-articulated replies, I thought I might thank the responders for their efforts. The mistake I made was that I started my thought on the "Subject" line. Yes, it is a one liner, but, from my perspective, it doesn't break any forum rules as it's benign and doesn't obstruct further discussion. As for it being "meaningless," how difficult is it to comprehend a simple thank you? It's quite self-explanatory. Finally, gabaston clearly stated in his reply that he was confused; however, nowhere did he imply, as you did, that he thought I was cursing him. Let me help you back on board. Below, I've quoted my explanation to gabaston in case you didn't see it.

Filitsa wrote:
gabaston wrote:vp

filitsa

hence, niether do i get yours.

not being nasty here, just dont get what is being said. i've had a bad day.


Sorry you've had a bad day, gabaston. My reply to you contained no hidden agenda. Simply, I was thanking you for your response to my question. I don't mean to slight anyone else as I appreciate all the replies and can understand all perspectives, but I found yours to be particularly well-reasoned and sensible.

filitsa i think viewpoint is saying that the present situation is peace. Are you agreeing with him?


Peace can mean many things. It can mean; an absence from war. It can mean law and order. It can mean harmony. It can mean serenity. Is there an absence from war in Cyprus? Yes. Is there law and order? There is order, and for the most part law, but some aspects of law are debatable, for example the land issue and the legality of the "TRNC" as a bonafide nation-state. Is there harmony? No. Is there serenity? Yes. Is Cyprus peaceful. No. In order for it to be peaceful, the answer to all these questions must be yes. What I think currently exists in Cyprus is tolerance, tolerance to the extent that the status quo has been allowed for a period of time. I'm wondering, though, is this tolerance good or bad?

I am confused, what day is it?


The first day of the rest of your life. Be confused no more.


And now I need to ask: Is the real issue here confusion or cynicism?
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Postby gabaston » Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:44 pm

MaC

tell you the truth, ah forget it...................


anyway filitsa has acted with courtesy, its just that we're so used to slagging each other, that when someone is polite we instantly take it the wrong way.

apologies filitsa, and once again welcome to the assylum.
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:44 pm

Viewpoint wrote:You make it sound so simple and uncomplicated like we were all living in Disneyland and that we rushed things by inviting Turkey to arrive and mess things up for us otherwise we would have a better deal and living in harmony.

Why do you do that? we fucked up bad the years leading up to 1974 was hell for us and our only hope for survival was for Turkey to arrive and save us from a shallow grave otherwise over the last 31 years we would have been long forgotten....try and be honest with yourself first...its this sttitude that stokes the fire of mistrust between our communities.

No viewpoint! I do not make anything sound simple and uncomplicated! This is not what I said! However, compared to the situation between 1963 and 1967, the situation of the TC community between 1968-1974 had substantially improved and if the TCs wanted to make full use of it, they could have had almost the same opportunities with the GCs in utilising their properties or engaging in Commerce and trade. It is a fact that during those years, not even one single TC has been heart by any GC, at least for reasons relating to the differences between the two communities. The only exception was the settlement of the political issue, which as I said above, had gone into a very promising pathway for a final settlement. Of course you must not forget that we (the GCs) were also living under a constant psychological and physical threat due to the fact that on the one hand there was all the evidence for a continues Turkish military build-up towards a forthcoming invasion and the TC community was not innocent at all for this threat to appear so immanent, due to the fact that they were working in close hand with Turkey for its successful implementation; and on the other hand we had the Eoka B and Junta which were threatening the stability of the GC community with their pro-union actions and coup threats against Makarios. This had naturally continued to influence the relationship between the two communities and it is for this reason that there was a lot of mistrust in allowing completely unrestricted freedom of movement in all the activities that the TCs wanted to engage. Your leadership during those years (78-74,) although the GC side had all the intention to completely normalise your civilian status, was not helpful at all because they were only concerned and preparing for the day that Turkey would have eventually made it and intervene, in order to partition the island.

In 1974, Turkey had chosen to make full exploitation of the unfortunate coup against Makarios and ceased the opportunity to invade with the full help and co-operation of the TCs, in order to divide the island as the military it was planning to do so since 1950s. The threat against the TC community by the coup was only theoretical, because from the moment Makarios escaped from Cyprus and went to the UN, it was only a matter of time before the coupists and the Greek Junta, coming under international pressure both by the superpowers, UN, and the two guarantor powers, would have yielded power back to Makarios. This pressure had almost begun from day one of the coup and the coupists would have no choice other than stepping down very soon, set aside dare to attack the TCs and begin killing them.

Today, you are celebrating the successful outcome of Turkey’s and your chauvinist leadership’s long term planning for partition and we are mourning the loss of 1/3 of our homeland and all our properties.
You have to know one thing though! Life is a circle!
Our yesterday’s celebrations are our today’s mourning, and your today’s celebrations will equally and easily turn out to be your tomorrow’s mourning, if you do not become sensible enough to make it a common celebrating tomorrow! And I am sorry to see that you are not that sensible so far in your demands, as you are still trying to capitalise in full on the “fait accompli” of the Turkish invasion and occupation!
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Postby MicAtCyp » Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:54 pm

OK, ok forget it, after all it seems there is no cure for "one line" posts and there is no way for someone to go back and fix the discussions. I thought I might point some things to you, but it seems I get an oposition party rising up.
Sorry Filitsa, I did not notice you were a new member, and perhaps I should forget about that post especially when the rest of your posts are fine and constructive. Welcome to the forum.
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:22 pm

Kifeas, man sounds like you were living in Disneyland and loved TCs wow how stupid of us to mess things up :lol:
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:53 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Kifeas, man sounds like you were living in Disneyland and loved TCs wow how stupid of us to mess things up :lol:


Your spastic laughing and irony prove only one thing! The complete lack of any valid arguments on your behalf! :wink:
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