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[Viewpoint]

MicAtCyp

Regarding the matter of women been searched by Policemen may I remind you that 95% of the women during that period were staying at home.

Where did you get this figure from did you count them personally or can I refer to a reliable source or are you using your imagination again??

[Kifeas]

We need to be totally impartial and honest when trying to view critically the past regarding the atrocities committed by each community against the other. Otherwise the excercise has no meaning. I get very upset and angry when reading that the atrocities committed by the GC's were the responsibility of a bunch of fools, ie EOKA B' members. At the same time, shamelesly, some people declare that the atrocities committed against the GC's were the work of Turks! This is totally unacceptable and people that make such arguments can only be labelled as racists and anti Cypriot in general. Such statements do nothing to build bridges for the two communities. They merely fuel the partition flames which are now raging out of control, in front of our doorsteps.

I can only speak for my community and in so doing it does not mean that I excuse the atrocities committed by the TC side. Its sad that I even need to make this distinction but in this forum there are so many members ready to make wild accusations of the most uncharecteristic type. Anyway, I do not really care much, even when people point out that I represent Denktash or even Ecevit. This is because I strongly believe that the real interests of Cyprus call for clear and transparent arguments where people are free to speak their mind without the bigots calling "traitor". This has been our curse from the past and I will simply ignore their cries.

I do not know who said in this forum that the atrocities committed against the TCs were the work of only the EOKA B and the atrocities against the GCs were the work of Turks in general, as you implied.

While you accuse us -all GCs of this forum, for unfairly claiming that Turks in general committed atrocities, you also generalise by implying that all GCs in this forum do believe and say so. It is better to be specific the next time and also make a quotation of what has been said and by whom. Unless your only purpose was to appear, yet another time, nice to the TCs in this forum.

It is a true fact however that as far as the atrocities against TCs after the 23rd of July 1974, were exclusively the work of EOKA B criminals. Most of them are known by their names as well!

I do not see why by saying that EOKA B members committed these atrocities in 1974 -a true fact, doesn’t contribute to the building of bridges between the two communities and fuel the partition flames, as you alleged. Weren't the Eoka B criminals also members of the GC community? Your thesis sounds very absurd!

I can only see one purpose behind what you wrote above. You want the entire GC community and especially the younger generations, to feel guilty on a personal level for what some other members of their community have done in the past and in which the did not have any involvement, nor they can change anything of what had already happened. You want to victimise all the GCs in this way, so that they accept and absorb the blame and the guild and consequently reduce their appetite to insist on a solution that will better safeguard their genuine interests. In other words you are just saying, we invited the war, we invited Turkey, we invited partition, it is all our fault, therefore now we must accept to pay the whole price and should not have any demands for a fair solution. We should also accept all the consequences and accept any plan they bring in front of us. In a nutshell, you are just trying to morally victimise and ethically defeat the entire GC community, so that they accept the solution you have already accepted (A-plan,) and say thank you on top of it!

Well, I am reluctantly back, spurred on by the responses in this thread. Moving on from what I mentioned in the first paragraph, I would like to put to you that while all atrocities committed are of course condemned (again, I hate myself for having to clarify this) I believe the GC side shoulders more of the blame. This is because there is no excuse for state organs, such as the police or the national guard, or even state sponsored "Organisations" to embark in the killing of innocent people. It is wrong to believe that killings were done only by EOKA B' people. Murders were committed well before EOKA B' came to the fore. Some may argue that officially the government was not behind the killings. I have my serious doubts. In fact, not a single person was persecuted for engaging in such activities. In fact, no case was ever opened, meaning that the government had no will to investicate the murders. Take for example the three boys from Aredhiou. The local police arrested them one night in the early 60's and no one has seen them since.

Even if we agree that State organs were involved in killings of TCs in the 1960's, how does this make the entire GC community guilty of that? What proves that these killings were "sponsored" (i.e. ordered) by the GC leadership? What about killings committed by the TMT? TMT was an organisation "sponsored" by the TC leadership and Turkey. Does that mean that the entire TC community is to be held responsible for these crimes?

Members of the Turkish army, including low ranking officers of this army, have committed many atrocities in 1974. The Turkish government sponsors the Turkish Army! Does that mean that these atrocities were ordered by the Turkish Army’s top leadership, or by the Turkish government? Does that mean that the entire Turkish nation and the entire TC community are to be held responsible and guilty for all those crimes that happened in Cyprus in 1974? Has anybody from those TMT members or from the Turkish army ever been convicted and punished by their State for all those crimes?

Is this they way administrate and measure the amount of the blame on each community?

Of course, one should remember that it all started when we decided unilaterally to pursue our enosis dream, almost the day after we put our signature on the London-Zurich agreements. Makarios and most GC leaders at the time saw the agreements just as a stepping stone to achieve enosis. We never believed in the RoC. Now, we cry our hearts out for the TC's to come back to it. We are not even being funny ...

Who is the WE that you mention above? Is it the entire GC community?
As far as I know there were those GC nationalists who had continued their Enosis "dream" from the 1950's further into the years after "independence," in the same way that many TC nationalists, organised under the TMT, had continued their Taxim dream from the 1950's into the years after "independence."

Makarios had only tried to change some articles of the constitution that were giving excessive powers to the TC community, in his opinion more than needed! The TC leadership not only refused to negotiate on these proposals but also, taking advantage of the intercommunal clashes, decided in “one night” to set up their own separate government in order to function as a state within state, as it was their plan to do so (this plan came into light as it was drafted in writing,) and thus set up the first mile stone that would have let them to their partition goal. As a result, the RoC remained in the hands of the GC community. Makarios didn't impose those changes nor he had envisioned the complete removal of the TCs from the RoC when he was preparing these proposals. Those intercommunal clashes, you may argue, were the responsibility and the initiative of the GC leadership. Perhaps yes! But you also need to explain to me why the TC leadership was arming the TCs to the teeth since 1958, and also why they had chosen to immediately fight back in all other areas of Cyprus and invite even more attacks in this way? More importantly, why had they chosen to immediately occupy the entire mountains surrounding the Nicosia /Kyrenia passage? Who they were supposed to defend up on the mountains, if the only reason was not to safeguard the bridging of the Kyrenia seaport for the Turkish Army to land there and safely transfer army in Cyprus for their partition plans? In a nutshell, both communities’ leaderships had their own agendas and their own plans and to simply load the entire blame on one side exclusively, in view of all the above facts, is just playing ostrich, otherwise you have to accept that you have some kind a masochistic inclination to constantly “whip” your own self.

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas lighten up no one is saying just one side is to blame for events leading up to 1974, everyone knows it take 2 to tango. But one event triggers off another and so on until we have an explosion like we did in 1974. There were 2 goals Enosis and the other Taksim, we reached our goal and you failed its as easy as that. We must look at the current situation and debate how we intend to go forward, do we really want a united Cyprus or should we just agree to go our seperate ways or as we are doing now continue with the current status quo...

[Bananiot]

I refuse to enter into conversation with someone that constantly tries to interprete my stance. I can perfectly understand someone disagreeing or refuting whatever I write but to arrive at wild conclusions that masochism etc is the underlying problem with me because I am GC and my views are not in line with conventional wisdom is totally counterproductive and outside all norms of a civilised debate.

[MicAtCyp]

What did you expect him to say? The truth? Everything is expected from a psychopat Turkish eater who devoted his whole life to make Cyprus a Hellene island.

Keep trying to conceal the facts and the guilt of Hellenic extreme right wing and keep putting all the blame on Turkish army and extreme Turkish right wing.

Self - satisfaction and some kind of self - amusement.

Gunes balc? kla s? vanamaz.

Do you still continue having Turkish lessons re brother Mic?

Insan I quoted what he said and only what he said. If that was the truth or a lie one can only speculate. The conclussion that the aim of the coup was for double Enosis was mine and I might be right or I might be wrong.

Yes I know the sun cannot be hidden/covered with wet mud.
I welcomed you many times back to the forum after your long absense but you never replied to me. . . . .

Generals of which army. Haven't youy still understood what wrongs the Hellenic ruling elite did, what lies and stories they told you in order to erase, conceal their gu? ilt and keep themselves in power? Could they have told you the truths? No. Telling you the truths about the things they did wrong; would be the end of their political life and social status.

The fact is we don't know the truth, and you don't know it either. I posted something trying to draw my own conclussions, and the facts I posted about the inaction of the mainland Greek officers during the Invasion, the maps they had about which areas the Turks would occupy are true and can be verified by every GC in this forum.

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They are in many of my historic posts but if you want me to express them again I am happy to do so.

Thanks, thats better. . . .

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So now Sampson loved TCs get real, and I am glad you verified what he said makes me feel much better. . . .

So where did I say or even implied that he loved the TCs?

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1967, one example we left nicosia for larnaca we pass through tc patrol and head on into the couhtry ten minutes later we are in a queue. We are told not to get out of the car. I see other cars passing through and ask my uncle why can they go straight through and we have to wait. He says coz they're greek. After an hour we reach the front, where greek police or guard with machine guns search then car. My mother is taken away by a gc police woman wearing gloves into a small kiosk, presumably to be searched.



MaC, please i dont lie about these things. if you think tcs need to lie, then it strengthens my belief that most decent gc's did not know the half of what we endured. No decent people would have tollerated such.

Gab, I am not saying you are lying. In fact everything you said is in line with my last post.It was in 1967!! I am not lying either. . . .

am not saying there were multiple checkpoints on every road.
this happened once or twice on every journey.

At very specific dates and for a couples of months and for very specific reasons relating to public safety

does enclave checking make it ok then?

Why don't you ask the same question to the TC police of the administration you created at the enclaves?
No it does not make it OK, but can you point me anything normal in Cyprus then?

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Sorry to pop into the conversation but isnt this the same thing with what is happening now with muslims in the US, and UK i guess after the latest bombings,

It is exactly the same Yiannis. The reason I reacted is because there was some kind of effort here to present the matter as if it was the rule for 14 consecutive years, under a situation of emergency, which is simply not true. Not even a single mention of the bombing of the Turkish Airforce and the holocaust of GC villages in those specific years of 63 and 67. Not even a single mention of a State within a State situation. Only complains for the checkpoints out of the State within a State they themselves created.

So i guess the answer can only be seeked from those that were living at that time and they were old enough to tell us if any gc were also being checked or not.

I was 16 in 1974 and I can verify you we were travelling with my father a minimum of 100 miles every day, we never ever came accross a checkpoint, never ever seen queues of cars where the GCs were let pass and the TCs were stopped.... Of course we knew were the enclaves were and we never tried to get in and commit suicide. Obviously there were checkpoints for a short period after the events of 1963 and 1967 but that was the exception not the rule!

it was another harrasment method aimed at demoralsing tc. Why were only tc cars stopped?

Says who? Did you ask a GC to tell you if he would let pass without getting stopped into a TC enclave? Oh, yeah, I forgot perhaps they would let him pass and then slaughter him as soon as he moved a few blocks inside, where nobody would see. At least after you were passing the checkpoint you felt free to go. For the GCs passing a TC checkpoint was a free ticket to the grave. . .
Of course you never asked a GC to tell you his feelings while been escorted by the UN to pass through Kionelli towards Kyrenia in a convoy. Yet there were 2 convoys one at 8.30 in the morning and one in the afternoon.If the GC was punctual we would only wait for 5 minutes under the sun.If he was not and did not know the exact hours he could wait from morning until the afternoon! Still however no GC came in this forum crying for passing that checkpoint. Do you know the danger of a GC passing though Kionelli in case his car would brake down in the middle of the road? Do you know how many angry TCs would look from a distance waiting for their chance to slaughter?

[cypezokyli]

MicAtCyp:
Do you know how many angry TCs would look from a distance waiting for their chance to slaughter?

i am really sorry i am too young to know.
so how many were there?
and
what made them so angry?
or
is it a kind of a genetic slaughter disease?

and
do you thing that they ve got over it today?
i mean we are discussing with them trying to live together.

[Viewpoint]

MicAtCyp why did we have the enclaves in the first place???and why the hell would we want those that are trying to kill us into those enclaves what would be the point?, you are very good story teller and manipulate words to always to GCs benefit so well you have turned it into an art form...the propaganda machine at its best...Why dont you just say it was a bed of roses for TCs and they got greedy and wanted 37% of the island so they invited Turkey to do it for them and also persuaded the rest of the the world to sit and watch....crushing the innocent poverty stricken GCs community that had not been constantly arming themselves but only wanted to unite the whole island with Greece, Im sure the TCs would have been ok with great privilidges like eating dirt from mass graves, nothing to worry about...the road blocks were a reality for us however long the period was or however harrowing the experience was dont try and explain it away it happened just acknowledge it and show a morsle of remorse and move on.. you are a GC you were a privilidged individual back then, we were classed as scum and treated accordingly, so dont preach off your high horse like you are the only one that knows anything and nobody else knows anything, everyone has something to contribute, so that we may all learn and hopefully change for the better.

[gabaston]

i am not disputing any of what you are saying re gcs entering tc enclaves, and i am ready to accept what you are saying, i was responding to your earlier statement that there no roadblocks.

and i say it was harrasment. A reasonable response to search for weapons is to search every car. Blimey if tc wanted to smuggle weapons, how easy it would have been knowing that gc cars and lorries werent stopped. A tc with perfect greek (nuf of those) and forged documents, or big payments to gc crooks to smuggle the guns.

as an example of paying gc crooks to smuggle: many tcs escaped southern cyprus during and after the invasion 74.....the cost was 4,000 pounds, in the back of a gc lorry, and hidden in secret compartment at checkpoints.


correction to price of escape, 200 pounds per head. have just spoken to lady who escaped from south during 74.

[MicAtCyp]

you are very good story teller and manipulate words to always to GCs benefit so well you have turned it into an art form...the propaganda machine at its best...

Thank you agapi mou, you really drove me to heavens. But I am just a shy little boy, that blushes when hearing such lovely compliments coming from you.

May I remind you that personal attacks and name calling are not permitted but I cannot easily evaluate the ones targetting myself.
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus1566.html
You are not taking advantage of my position, are you?

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MicAtCyp:
Do you know how many angry TCs would look from a distance waiting for their chance to slaughter?

i am really sorry i am too young to know.
so how many were there?
and
what made them so angry?
or
is it a kind of a genetic slaughter disease?

and
do you thing that they ve got over it today?
i mean we are discussing with them trying to live together.

I am not here to give you private lessons. If you have so many questions read books, read the forum and after you get your answers put them down to see how close you are.

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i am not disputing any of what you are saying re gcs entering tc enclaves, and i am ready to accept what you are saying, i was responding to your earlier statement that there no roadblocks. ...... (snip)

I accept what you said too Gabaston. Under different conditions I could perhaps tell you more of what you don't know and you tell me more of what I don't know. But under the conditions of this forum when everybody will jump in overgeneralising I am afraid it's impossible.Thanks for your contribution anyway.

[erolz]

May I remind you that personal attacks and name calling are not permitted but I cannot easily evaluate the ones targetting myself.
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus1566.html
You are not taking advantage of my position, are you?

Slightly off topic but I feel I have to mention this. There is a difference in refering to other posters, even in negative terms and plain insulting them as I see it. I think you may be getting a little 'over zealous' in my humble opinion. Anyway as a moderator not directly involved I have made a personal judgement call and decided to leave VP comments as they are. Bordering on the unacceptable but not quite over it in my view - and in such cases I believe leaving the post is better than removing them. Just my personal view judgment of course. If other feel differently and wish to please to ask for some 'arbitration' from the admin (or if you feel a need to discuss it publicaly then please do so in an appropriate thread and place and not here)

here endeth the off(ish) topic post