Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

The thread material is just demands DT. It doesn't mean Christofias accepted them.
Christofias said many times he is disappointed from Talat bringing in confederal demands. We will not accept such demands.

Let's not start an OXI campaign like idiots without having the complete picture in front of us.
What I am disappointed of so far is that they ve been discussing the matter of power sharing for so long and even on that we still have a great chasm. How about the other important issues? Imo the Turkish side wants it all and they will not give anything in the end.
Here are my predictions:

a)Property issue: The will insist the current user has the first say
b)Settlers:They will insist they all stay.
c)Turkish Nationals:They will insist they get EU citizen rights in Cyprus, like the Greek nationals.
d)Territory: They will start from 30%. No return of Morfou.
e)Right of Return:they will insist on limiting it to 10% as per Anan Plan.
f)Derrogations:They will throw in a ton of demands for derrogations from EU aquis.

Just forget it. Imo if Eroglu is elected we should take the chance to get rid of everything we agreed so far.BBF and all this bullshit. Just forget there will be an agreed solution EVER and just stay clean from any obligations and any agreements.
We should STAY CLEAN waiting for the day Turkey will be ready to join the EU or get her special relations agreement.

Pyro,

the President HAS accepted some of this. Rotating presidency and 50k settlers were HIS proposals. The reason I added the Turkish proposals were because that was the Turkish responce to the Presidents generous offers of goodwill.

You accept 50,000 settlers? Tough titties, we now want them ALL to stay and we're sending over another 70m should they wish to.

If you ask me the rotating presidency of the CENTRAL FEDERAL STATE is an excellent idead, it has been discussed in this forum in the past and many people agreed. It gives the TCs a sense of responsibility for the new state. It gives them the chance to feel proud. It makes GCs and TCs join forces in voting. It brings the base and the heads together. Too many +es.... What is the negative you tell me? Imgine we have Talat or Izcan for a president for a couple of years, what would they do wrong to you or me???
Of course the Turkish demand for rotating presidency on a 3:2 ratio is nothing but greediness. We don't have to accept it
Those GC politicians who took this argument to go against Christofia really disgust me.

I admit he handled the matter of settlers wrong. My friend either we like it or not a number of settlers will stay.The human rights of settlers override the war crime of settlement committed by Turkey.In this respect Christofias should have put his legal experts to dig the legal guidelines according to which number of settlers will stay.Whatever that number is we have to accept it. What he should actually have DEMANDED is Turkey for take responsibility and pay all costs for their housing and adaptation to Cyprus. He should also have negotiated for Turkey to pay 20,000 Euros for each one who while elligible to stay would prefer to take the money and go. He should also have negotiated that Turkey pays the financial aid to Original TCs who might want to come back after a solution...

[BirKibrisli]

Sorry to put a dampner on things,but i think it is all very clear now...The AKP government in Turkey will use the Cyprus problem card to make sure Turkey NEVER gets accepted into the EU...The Turkish proposals presented by Talat are clear proof of that... so don't spend too much time agonising over them...And if as expected Eroglu wins the Presidential in April,that will be the ultimate proof..Because under the present demographics Eroglu cannot win,and Talat cannot loose,without Turkey's help...so forget it ,people...The game is over..There will be no solution,the status quo serves Turkish interests and the GC interests equally well,and that is what will remain in place for a long time to come...

[boulio]

so what will the t/c do then?

and at the end of the day is it in turkeys interest to be viewed as a occupier?

[Kikapu]

Sorry to put a dampner on things,but i think it is all very clear now...The AKP government in Turkey will use the Cyprus problem card to make sure Turkey NEVER gets accepted into the EU...The Turkish proposals presented by Talat are clear proof of that... so don't spend too much time agonising over them...And if as expected Eroglu wins the Presidential in April,that will be the ultimate proof..Because under the present demographics Eroglu cannot win,and Talat cannot loose,without Turkey's help...so forget it ,people...The game is over..There will be no solution,the status quo serves Turkish interests and the GC interests equally well,and that is what will remain in place for a long time to come...

Bir, I was talking with a gentleman in Turkey when I last visited, who seemed to have his thoughts together regarding Cyprus and Turkey. First of all, he believes Turkey should have taken all of Cyprus back in 74, but since that did not happen, and now giving the northern part back to the RoC would be the end of Turkey as we know it. He fears, that if the northern part is given back to the RoC, it will be the beginning of Turkey's break up with demands from the Kurds and Armenians to follow with their claim. It sounds a little farfetched, but this is how he sees it. Is Turkey really worried, that giving back northern Cyprus will open the "floodgates" of her own destruction.???

To address your above post, at this point in time Turkey can afford to be intransigent with the EU, just because they have nothing to lose since they are not ready to become a EU member and the EU is not ready for Turkey. Time does not stand still however, therefore at another time under different circumstances Turkey will be ready and so will the EU to accept them, which means Turkey will still need to deal with the Cyprus problem since the RoC is in the EU and since they also have a veto power. In the meantime, the RoC will continue to build on their advantages over the "trnc" and Turkey at every step of the way, politically and legally. There was a time that the north may have become recognised or even annexed by Turkey, but both those avenues has been dashed by the RoC becoming a EU member which makes the whole island as a EU territory. The RoC will just wait out Turkey and cause them and the "trnc" many difficulties through the EU courts. The "trnc" has now become a "quicksand" and nothing can be built there to help it in ever becoming an legal entity with a future since the Orams ruling and it has now become a case of "throwing good money after bad money" by anyone who may have once had high hopes for the north. So you are right when you say that the game is over, which is true for the "trnc" and Turkey, but for the RoC, it is only now beginning.!

[B25]

Sorry to put a dampner on things,but i think it is all very clear now...The AKP government in Turkey will use the Cyprus problem card to make sure Turkey NEVER gets accepted into the EU...The Turkish proposals presented by Talat are clear proof of that... so don't spend too much time agonising over them...And if as expected Eroglu wins the Presidential in April,that will be the ultimate proof..Because under the present demographics Eroglu cannot win,and Talat cannot loose,without Turkey's help...so forget it ,people...The game is over..There will be no solution,the status quo serves Turkish interests and the GC interests equally well,and that is what will remain in place for a long time to come...

Hello Bir, nothing personal and what exchanges we had previously is now water under the bridge for me, however I wanted to ask you a question.

Which would you prefer?

1. A status Quo for the time being

or

2. A bodged 'solution' to apease some with a good possibility of a return to the 60's problems?

I ask, because is seems to me that you wish to constantly blackmail us to accept something real fast even though we do not agree with it just so that you can get what you want. You know as well as anyone else, the demands being made by Turkey and the TCs are totally unacceptable yet you still throw at us the idea 'If you don't accept these then you are F'ed' , at least thats the way I am reading it.

if you were in our shoes, would you accept these terms?? i guess not, so please don't expect us to.

We do want a solution, it is in everyones interest to have a solution, but we demand a fair and just and most of all a WORKABLE solution.

Further, in response to your question in a previous thread, I do acknowledge the suffering of the TCs in those 3 villages you mentioned and any other village. Those that did these terrible things need to be dealt with. I do acknowledge the TC plight (although it is not obvious, but I and we have admitted it enough times), whereas I don't feel that many on your side have.

I do not condone these killings and murders of innocent civilians nor Prisoners of war (look back Bir), and it should offend any decent human being, thats not to say that if the time came I would not take up arms if the need be but we all hope that this will not come to pass.

Over to you.

[BirKibrisli]

Sorry to put a dampner on things,but i think it is all very clear now...The AKP government in Turkey will use the Cyprus problem card to make sure Turkey NEVER gets accepted into the EU...The Turkish proposals presented by Talat are clear proof of that... so don't spend too much time agonising over them...And if as expected Eroglu wins the Presidential in April,that will be the ultimate proof..Because under the present demographics Eroglu cannot win,and Talat cannot loose,without Turkey's help...so forget it ,people...The game is over..There will be no solution,the status quo serves Turkish interests and the GC interests equally well,and that is what will remain in place for a long time to come...

Bir, I was talking with a gentleman in Turkey when I last visited, who seemed to have his thoughts together regarding Cyprus and Turkey. First of all, he believes Turkey should have taken all of Cyprus back in 74, but since that did not happen, and now giving the northern part back to the RoC would be the end of Turkey as we know it. He fears, that if the northern part is given back to the RoC, it will be the beginning of Turkey's break up with demands from the Kurds and Armenians to follow with their claim. It sounds a little farfetched, but this is how he sees it. Is Turkey really worried, that giving back northern Cyprus will open the "floodgates" of her own destruction.???

To address your above post, at this point in time Turkey can afford to be intransigent with the EU, just because they have nothing to lose since they are not ready to become a EU member and the EU is not ready for Turkey. Time does not stand still however, therefore at another time under different circumstances Turkey will be ready and so will the EU to accept them, which means Turkey will still need to deal with the Cyprus problem since the RoC is in the EU and since they also have a veto power. In the meantime, the RoC will continue to build on their advantages over the "trnc" and Turkey at every step of the way, politically and legally. There was a time that the north may have become recognised or even annexed by Turkey, but both those avenues has been dashed by the RoC becoming a EU member which makes the whole island as a EU territory. The RoC will just wait out Turkey and cause them and the "trnc" many difficulties through the EU courts. The "trnc" has now become a "quicksand" and nothing can be built there to help it in ever becoming an legal entity with a future since the Orams ruling and it has now become a case of "throwing good money after bad money" by anyone who may have once had high hopes for the north. So you are right when you say that the game is over, which is true for the "trnc" and Turkey, but for the RoC, it is only now beginning.!

I'd say your Turkish interlocutor is suffering from paranoia,Kikapu...
People with paranoia are everywhere ,and Turkey has a fair share of them...There is no logical,social,or geopolitical reasons why pulling out of Cyprus would result in Turkey's destruction..I don't think Turkey is worrried about that at all...It is far more simple...I keep talking about it,and others think i have hidden motives,but I know you know better..

We do not agree on this,but you too are making the mistake of assuming that Erdogan and his government want to get into the EU...My firm belief is that they don't...But they have to pretend they do to keep the army at bay for the time being..Cyprus is the ideal vehicle to stop Turkey from getting into the EU...As long as the cyprus problem is not solved Erdogan is safe...He can keep talking about the intransigent EU people who are being so unfair,a Christian Club who are anti-Islamic etc...

That is why Eroglu will win the elections in April with Turkey's backing...Erdogan will then point the finger to Eroglu and say 'the TCs do not want us to leave Cyprus' we cannot abandon our bloodbrothers etc...
People on this forum do not want to hear this,because they want to believe their EU card will come up trumps in the end...You seem to think the same way...I believe you are all wrong...Let me make this point clear,this is not what I wish,it is what I believe...The Orams decision is only a little nuisance for Turkey...They know that the CP will be solved politically and at the negotiation table,if and when the right circumstances for Turkey arise...In the meantime the status quo will do nicely for both Turkey and the GCs...

[BirKibrisli]

Sorry to put a dampner on things,but i think it is all very clear now...The AKP government in Turkey will use the Cyprus problem card to make sure Turkey NEVER gets accepted into the EU...The Turkish proposals presented by Talat are clear proof of that... so don't spend too much time agonising over them...And if as expected Eroglu wins the Presidential in April,that will be the ultimate proof..Because under the present demographics Eroglu cannot win,and Talat cannot loose,without Turkey's help...so forget it ,people...The game is over..There will be no solution,the status quo serves Turkish interests and the GC interests equally well,and that is what will remain in place for a long time to come...

Hello Bir, nothing personal and what exchanges we had previously is now water under the bridge for me, however I wanted to ask you a question.

Which would you prefer?

1. A status Quo for the time being

or

2. A bodged 'solution' to apease some with a good possibility of a return to the 60's problems?

I ask, because is seems to me that you wish to constantly blackmail us to accept something real fast even though we do not agree with it just so that you can get what you want. You know as well as anyone else, the demands being made by Turkey and the TCs are totally unacceptable yet you still throw at us the idea 'If you don't accept these then you are F'ed' , at least thats the way I am reading it.

if you were in our shoes, would you accept these terms?? i guess not, so please don't expect us to.

We do want a solution, it is in everyones interest to have a solution, but we demand a fair and just and most of all a WORKABLE solution.

Further, in response to your question in a previous thread, I do acknowledge the suffering of the TCs in those 3 villages you mentioned and any other village. Those that did these terrible things need to be dealt with. I do acknowledge the TC plight (although it is not obvious, but I and we have admitted it enough times), whereas I don't feel that many on your side have.

I do not condone these killings and murders of innocent civilians nor Prisoners of war (look back Bir), and it should offend any decent human being, thats not to say that if the time came I would not take up arms if the need be but we all hope that this will not come to pass.

Over to you.

I am always open to civilised discussion,B25...As long as you do not attempt to read my mind or assume motives I do not have...The alternative to the status quo is not a "bodged solution" as you say..We can have a reasonable solution which will satisfy both sides primary concerns...Sure we need to be creative and compromise,but for that the GCs need to swollow one bitter pill...I know this is not easy,but it is the only way we will move on from where we are...That bitter pill is this: Turkey and the TCs will NEVER accept a solutiion which will remove Turkey from the picture all together...If and when you accept this,I am sure all other problems can be solved more or less to everyone's satisfaction...The status quo I believe is working worse for the TCs who will be totally Turkified within 25 years...But the status quo is also working against the GCs as it will cement Partition along the present borders...Within 25 years there will be at least as many "New TCs" as GCs in Cyprus and no other solution but partition will be feasible or desirable by anyone...So Cyprus will be divided between Turkey and the RoC...If that is alright with you guys,so ahead and make Turkey's day by insisting on democracy and human rights and EU principles and all that...It is music to Turkish ears...We call it "yalelli havasi"...

[paliometoxo]

oh no turkey i feel sorry for them they are giving up so much by having two states and control over all the island and giving us nothing in the north.. oh no that must of been so hard for turkey to be able to accept these terms we are being very greedy asking for this much from turkey.. shame on us gcs

[YFred]

Sorry to put a dampner on things,but i think it is all very clear now...The AKP government in Turkey will use the Cyprus problem card to make sure Turkey NEVER gets accepted into the EU...The Turkish proposals presented by Talat are clear proof of that... so don't spend too much time agonising over them...And if as expected Eroglu wins the Presidential in April,that will be the ultimate proof..Because under the present demographics Eroglu cannot win,and Talat cannot loose,without Turkey's help...so forget it ,people...The game is over..There will be no solution,the status quo serves Turkish interests and the GC interests equally well,and that is what will remain in place for a long time to come...

Hello Bir, nothing personal and what exchanges we had previously is now water under the bridge for me, however I wanted to ask you a question.

Which would you prefer?

1. A status Quo for the time being

or

2. A bodged 'solution' to apease some with a good possibility of a return to the 60's problems?

I ask, because is seems to me that you wish to constantly blackmail us to accept something real fast even though we do not agree with it just so that you can get what you want. You know as well as anyone else, the demands being made by Turkey and the TCs are totally unacceptable yet you still throw at us the idea 'If you don't accept these then you are F'ed' , at least thats the way I am reading it.

if you were in our shoes, would you accept these terms?? i guess not, so please don't expect us to.

We do want a solution, it is in everyones interest to have a solution, but we demand a fair and just and most of all a WORKABLE solution.

Further, in response to your question in a previous thread, I do acknowledge the suffering of the TCs in those 3 villages you mentioned and any other village. Those that did these terrible things need to be dealt with. I do acknowledge the TC plight (although it is not obvious, but I and we have admitted it enough times), whereas I don't feel that many on your side have.

I do not condone these killings and murders of innocent civilians nor Prisoners of war (look back Bir), and it should offend any decent human being, thats not to say that if the time came I would not take up arms if the need be but we all hope that this will not come to pass.

Over to you.

I am always open to civilised discussion,B25...As long as you do not attempt to read my mind or assume motives I do not have...The alternative to the status quo is not a "bodged solution" as you say..We can have a reasonable solution which will satisfy both sides primary concerns...Sure we need to be creative and compromise,but for that the GCs need to swollow one bitter pill...I know this is not easy,but it is the only way we will move on from where we are...That bitter pill is this: Turkey and the TCs will NEVER accept a solutiion which will remove Turkey from the picture all together...If and when you accept this,I am sure all other problems can be solved more or less to everyone's satisfaction...The status quo I believe is working worse for the TCs who will be totally Turkified within 25 years...But the status quo is also working against the GCs as it will cement Partition along the present borders...Within 25 years there will be at least as many "New TCs" as GCs in Cyprus and no other solution but partition will be feasible or desirable by anyone...So Cyprus will be divided between Turkey and the RoC...If that is alright with you guys,so ahead and make Turkey's day by insisting on democracy and human rights and EU principles and all that...It is music to Turkish ears...We call it "yalelli havasi"...

Agree with what you say except the time scale. It will not happen in 25 years time, more likely 5. If we have 5 more years of GC suffocation of the TCs, 99% of TCs will not even mix with GCs. The hatred will be unmanagable.

[BirKibrisli]

oh no turkey i feel sorry for them they are giving up so much by having two states and control over all the island and giving us nothing in the north.. oh no that must of been so hard for turkey to be able to accept these terms we are being very greedy asking for this much from turkey.. shame on us gcs

AS they say,sarcasm is the lowest form of wit...It won't help us move forward,palio...I said,once you stop insisting that Turkey just disappears from the scene from the beginning, we can find ways of satisfying most people's needs...Tell me one thing,palio...How many GC refugees you think might uproot themselves again and go and live in their houses in the TC controlled Statelet??? I will tell you how many TCs will do the same,probably no more than 5000...The point is,we can find the ways and means to guarantee most people's human rights,as long as we respect each other's red lines...It is not realistic to expect all the red lines to disappear right at the start of reunification...Why don't you tell me 2 of the GC red lines you think we must preserve??? Lets see if we can accomodate each other...