Cyprus-Forum.com

[boomerang]

murder is murder tim...justice should prevail...

but very doubtfull in going ahead

but before starting such a work one should investigate what kind of results this will create.

in other words turkey won't allow it

[Oracle]

bir said:

As to Oracle's original question,the present separation is better for the TCs because their lives are not in danger any longer,as Expat correctly pointed out...When you hear horror stories of patients taken from hospitals and their throats cut,busloads of TCs disappearing,only to be found in wells some 45 years later,and 3 whole villages massacred,and all TCs huddled together in enclaves,you too would've considered the present situation better,if you were a TC Oracle...Trust me,I am not exaggerating...

do you have a link to the hospital situation.Because i ve noticed something on this forum concerning t/c they like inflating two types of numbers:

1)how many t/c were killed in the 1958-1974 period
2)and how much land they own in the south pre 1974

boulio

I've tried to get to the bottom of this hospital allegation with Bir before. It happened at a time when the TMT were knocking TCs off for even speaking to GCs and these patients (two men?) were mixing with GCs. So they seem like archetypal TMT victims and the fact everything is clouded in mystery and this scenario is constantly used by the likes of Bir, who has TMT roots, is all very worrying.

Bir has not come up with any real information relating to this incident yet uses it, in an exaggerated way, along with strings of other "atrocities" in his agenda to justify separation!

I am still trying to bring the dead back to life,so they can tell you their own eyewitness account,Oracle...They are all refusing to come back....One said "that racist reactionary bigot will not believe us anyway,so why bother?"...I will keep trying...

I was assuming you had raised them from the dead to give you an exclusive interview since you seem to trumpet some version with authority.

So, you don't have any information on this mystery, or how you came to know of it ....

Any chance of a reply or are you going to avoid this, again?

[Tim Drayton]

murder is murder tim...justice should prevail...

but very doubtfull in going ahead

but before starting such a work one should investigate what kind of results this will create.

in other words turkey won't allow it

My only purpose is to provide some evidence that these people were indeed murdered, in the face of some pretty stark denial. Otherwise, you already know that I think a South African style truth and reconciliation process is more appropriate.

[denizaksulu]

The second interview in Sevgül Uludağ's renowned book containing interviews with relatives of the missing (Turkish title: İncisini Kaybeden İstiridyeler) is with Kutlay Erk, who was eleven years old when his father was one of those murdered at Nicosia General Hospital.

About two years ago, someone posted some info on the TC head nurse at the Nicosia General Hospital, who was aware of the goings on. If I remember rightly they protected a TC patient (male) from EOKA and or paramilitaries. I did a search, but could not find it.

Yes, I am aware that this 'evidence' has not been approved by the RoC, but nevertheless it is an eyewitness account. Is the poster of that info still around. Perhaps those interested could use different criteria to do a search. Insan might know. Where is he?

[BirKibrisli]

Just for you,Oracle...
Obviously I don't know what is in this article,but a little bird told me it is written by a respected Greek journalist,published in a respected newspaper in Greece,and it mentions the Nicosia hospital killings...

It is apparently a well balanced article and talks about the wrong-doings of both sides...You might like to have a read before dismissing it as Turkish propaganda ...

Ξεχασμένες ευθύνες 1963 ~1974

Άρθρο του Διονύση Γουσέτη από την εφημερίδα 'Αυγή'.

Λίγο πριν τα δημοψηφίσματα στην Κύπρο, φαίνεται ότι υπερισχύει το μίσος. Διαπιστώνουμε και πάλι την αδικία κατά του ανάδελφου έθνους μας και υπέρ του προαιώνιου εχθρού. Ανακαλούμε με οργή τους βανδαλισμούς του 1955 στην Κωνσταντινούπολη, ή την εν ψυχρώ εκτέλεση, το 1974, δεκάδων ή εκατοντάδων Ελληνοκυπρίων αιχμαλώτων, γεγονός που ομολόγησε δημόσια και ο ίδιος ο Ντενκτάς. Αποσιωπάμε όμως τις δολοφονικές πράξεις των παρακρατικών ομάδων του Σαμψών, του Γεωργκάτζη και του Λυσσαρίδη, καθώς και της Χούντας σε βάρος των Τουρκοκυπρίων, κατά την περίοδο 1963- 1974. Είναι χρήσιμο να τις θυμηθούμε (δανείζομαι αποσπάσματα από εργασία του Γιώργου Νακρατζά -1999).

Οι προθέσεις του προέδρου Μακάριου εκφράστηκαν σε ένα λόγο του στο χωριό Παναγία στις 4/9/1962: «…μέχρις ότου εκδιωχθεί η μικρή αυτή τουρκική κοινότητα, ούσα τμήμα της τουρκικής φυλής, του φοβερού αυτού εχθρού του Ελληνισμού, το καθήκον των ηρώων της ΕΟΚΑ δεν θα μπορεί να θεωρηθεί ως περατωθέν». Σχετική επιστολή διαμαρτυρίας του Ντενκτάς δεν έτυχε απάντησης. Και στις 30/11/1963, ο Μακάριος υπέβαλε τα περίφημα 13 σημεία αλλαγής του Συντάγματος, παραβιάζοντας τη συνθήκη της Γενεύης. Η άρνηση των Τουρκοκυπρίων να τα δεχθούν εμφανίστηκε από τα κυπριακά Μ.Μ.Ε. σαν «τουρκική ανταρσία εναντίον του κράτους».

Η σημαντικότερη ελληνοκυπριακή επίθεση ήταν η επίθεση εναντίον της Ομορφίτας, προαστίου της Λευκωσίας. Επικεφαλής των ενόπλων παρακρατικών ήταν ο Νίκος Σαμψών, τον οποίον ο ελληνοκυπριακός τύπος αποκαλούσε από τότε «κατακτητή της Ομορφίτας». Σύμφωνα με την υπ’ αριθ. S/5950 έκθεση του Γ.Γ. του ΟΗΕ, «50 σπίτια καταστράφηκαν ολοσχερώς και 240 μερικώς. Από το σύνολο των 5.000 Τουρκοκυπρίων, 4.500 κατόρθωσαν να καταφύγουν ασφαλείς στον τουρκικό τομέα της Λευκωσίας ενώ 500 άτομα συνελήφθηκαν και οδηγήθηκαν στο σχολείο της Λευκωσίας Κύκκος, όπου κρατήθηκαν μαζί με άλλους 150 Τουρκοκύπριους, προερχόμενους από το χωριό Κουμσάλ». Για τα 150 αυτά άτομα οι ελληνοκυπριακές αρχές ανακοίνωναν στις οικογένειες τους για πολλά χρόνια ότι πρέπει να τους θεωρούν ‘αγνοούμενους’.

Άλλες σημαντικές επιθέσεις των Ελληνοκυπρίων ήταν οι επιθέσεις στον τουρκοκυπριακό θύλακα των Κοκκίνων- Μανσούρας (9/8/1964) και στα χωριά Μαθιάτι, Άγιος Βασίλειος και Κουμσάλ. Στο τελευταίο, οι Ελληνοκύπριοι παρακρατικοί εκτέλεσαν εν ψυχρώ 150 άτομα. Η πιο ανατριχιαστική δε φωτογραφία, που έκανε το γύρο του κόσμου, ήταν αυτή που παρουσίαζε τρία μικρά παιδιά μαζί με την μητέρα τους σκοτωμένα μέσα σε μια λίμνη αίματος στην μπανιέρα του σπιτιού τους. Ακόμα, Ελληνοκύπριοι παρακρατικοί απομάκρυναν βίαια από την χειρουργική κλινική του νοσοκομείου της Λευκωσίας 22 Τουρκοκύπριους ασθενείς, τα ίχνη των οποίων εξαφανίσθηκαν δια παντός. Η έκθεση του ΟΗΕ καταγράφει 43 Ελληνοκύπριους και 232 Τουρκοκύπριους ‘αγνοούμενους’ την περίοδο 21/12/1963 μέχρι 8/6/1964.

Οι επιθέσεις τερματίστηκαν όταν, τον Δεκέμβριο του 1964, ο ΟΗΕ δημιούργησε «θύλακες» στους οποίους έζησαν οι Τουρκοκύπριοι πρόσφυγες κάτω από άθλιες συνθήκες για δέκα ολόκληρα χρόνια. Η κυβέρνηση του Μακάριου, εκτός από το οικονομικό εμπάργκο που επέβαλε στους θύλακες, απαγόρευσε και την προμήθεια στρατηγικών αγαθών, όπως τσιμέντο, τρακτέρ, ανδρικές κάλτσες, μάλλινα ρούχα, κ.λ.π.

Μετά την επιβολή της δικτατορίας στην Ελλάδα, στις 15/11/1967, ελληνικές και ελληνοκυπριακές δυνάμεις επετέθησαν εναντίον των Τουρκοκυπρίων στα χωριά Άγιος Θεόδωρος και Κοφινού, όπου σκότωσαν 27. Το γεγονός επιβεβαίωσε στις 21/2/1986 στην ελληνική Βουλή και ο Ανδρέας Παπανδρέου, προσθέτοντας: «Η επιχείρηση διετάχθη από το αρχηγείο των Ελληνικών Ενόπλων Δυνάμεων… έγιναν σφαγές και λεηλασίες».

Την ύπαρξη προμελετημένου σχεδίου του Μακάριου για την εξόντωση των Τουρκοκυπρίων επιβεβαιώνει έμμεσα και το ΑΚΕΛ, δημοσιεύοντας (Ιούλιος 1979) τα ακόλουθα: «Ο κ. Λυσσαρίδης… με τον οπλισμό που του έδωσε ο Μακάριος σχημάτισε τις δικές του ένοπλες ομάδες, οι οποίες μαζί με τις ομάδες του Γιωρκάτζη και του Σαμψών διεξήγαγαν, το 1963-1964 ‘απελευθερωτικό αγώνα’ εναντίον των Τουρκοκυπρίων με αποτέλεσμα να μας φέρουν την ‘πράσινη γραμμή’ και τελικά τον Αττίλα».


Οι χειρότεροι λοιπόν εχθροί του έθνους απεδείχθησαν οι ακραίοι εθνικιστές. Το γνωρίζουμε από την ελληνική ιστορία, αλλά ο Πάσχος Μανδραβέλης μας θύμισε τη Συνθήκη του Όσλο μεταξύ Ισραηλινών και Παλαιστινίων. Τότε, οι ακραίοι των δυο πλευρών συνεργάστηκαν για την επιβολή του ΟΧΙ. Τον μεν «εθνοπροδότη» Ραμπίν τον δολοφόνησαν, ο δε Αραφάτ ενέδωσε στους δικούς του ακραίους. Ως αποτέλεσμα, σήμερα ρέει το αίμα αμάχων και των δυο πλευρών και προχθές οι ΗΠΑ δήλωσαν -για πρώτη φορά- ότι αποκλείεται η επιστροφή στα παλιά σύνορα. Μια χαμένη ευκαιρία. Στην Κύπρο, οι δυο ακραίοι πρόεδροι συνεργάζονται επίσης για το ΟΧΙ. Άλλη μια χαμένη ευκαιρία. Ήδη οι ΗΠΑ προέβησαν σε δηλώσεις…

http://www.sitemaker.gr/fakyris/assets/ ... thines.doc

There is more here for that period than there is in the GC history books.

Can you read this,YFred..???? Do you think you could translate it into English??? That would be great,mate...

[BirKibrisli]

bir said:

As to Oracle's original question,the present separation is better for the TCs because their lives are not in danger any longer,as Expat correctly pointed out...When you hear horror stories of patients taken from hospitals and their throats cut,busloads of TCs disappearing,only to be found in wells some 45 years later,and 3 whole villages massacred,and all TCs huddled together in enclaves,you too would've considered the present situation better,if you were a TC Oracle...Trust me,I am not exaggerating...

do you have a link to the hospital situation.Because i ve noticed something on this forum concerning t/c they like inflating two types of numbers:

1)how many t/c were killed in the 1958-1974 period
2)and how much land they own in the south pre 1974

boulio

I've tried to get to the bottom of this hospital allegation with Bir before. It happened at a time when the TMT were knocking TCs off for even speaking to GCs and these patients (two men?) were mixing with GCs. So they seem like archetypal TMT victims and the fact everything is clouded in mystery and this scenario is constantly used by the likes of Bir, who has TMT roots, is all very worrying.

Bir has not come up with any real information relating to this incident yet uses it, in an exaggerated way, along with strings of other "atrocities" in his agenda to justify separation!

I am still trying to bring the dead back to life,so they can tell you their own eyewitness account,Oracle...They are all refusing to come back....One said "that racist reactionary bigot will not believe us anyway,so why bother?"...I will keep trying...

I was assuming you had raised them from the dead to give you an exclusive interview since you seem to trumpet some version with authority.

So, you don't have any information on this mystery, or how you came to know of it ....

Any chance of a reply or are you going to avoid this, again?

Any chance of you commenting on the article in Greek I posted?
Better still,any chance of you translating it so everyone can read and comment????

[boomerang]

bir said:

As to Oracle's original question,the present separation is better for the TCs because their lives are not in danger any longer,as Expat correctly pointed out...When you hear horror stories of patients taken from hospitals and their throats cut,busloads of TCs disappearing,only to be found in wells some 45 years later,and 3 whole villages massacred,and all TCs huddled together in enclaves,you too would've considered the present situation better,if you were a TC Oracle...Trust me,I am not exaggerating...

do you have a link to the hospital situation.Because i ve noticed something on this forum concerning t/c they like inflating two types of numbers:

1)how many t/c were killed in the 1958-1974 period
2)and how much land they own in the south pre 1974

boulio

I've tried to get to the bottom of this hospital allegation with Bir before. It happened at a time when the TMT were knocking TCs off for even speaking to GCs and these patients (two men?) were mixing with GCs. So they seem like archetypal TMT victims and the fact everything is clouded in mystery and this scenario is constantly used by the likes of Bir, who has TMT roots, is all very worrying.

Bir has not come up with any real information relating to this incident yet uses it, in an exaggerated way, along with strings of other "atrocities" in his agenda to justify separation!

I am still trying to bring the dead back to life,so they can tell you their own eyewitness account,Oracle...They are all refusing to come back....One said "that racist reactionary bigot will not believe us anyway,so why bother?"...I will keep trying...

I was assuming you had raised them from the dead to give you an exclusive interview since you seem to trumpet some version with authority.

So, you don't have any information on this mystery, or how you came to know of it ....

Any chance of a reply or are you going to avoid this, again?

Any chance of you commenting on the article in Greek I posted?
Better still,any chance of you translating it so everyone can read and comment????

what's the point in answering you bir...from a democrat, human rights believer, and follower of the rule of law you became a fascist...

and what is more worrying for you, you captivated a fascist following...

[YFred]

Bir, here is a bad translation of it, but you'll get the gist of what it is saying.

Forgotten responsibilities 1963 ~1974 Article of Dionyssis [Goyseti] from newspaper '? [Aygi]'.
Little before the referenda in Cyprus, it appears that predominates half. We realise once again the unfairness at our [anadelfoy] nation and in favour the [proaionioy] enemy. We recall with rage the vandalisms 1955 in Istamboul, or in cold blood implementation, in 1974, tens or hundreds of Greekcypriot captives, fact that admitted states and himself [Ntenktas]. We conceal however the murderous action of parastate teams of [Sampson], [Georgkatzi] and [Lyssaridi], as well as Junta at the expense [Toyrkokyprion], at period 1963 - 1974. It is useful we remember him (I am lented extracts from work of Giorgos [Nakratza] -1999). The intentions of chairman Blissful expressed in his reason in the village Virgin Mary in the 4/9/1962: “… until is expelled this small Turkish community, [oysa] department of Turkish race, this horrible enemy of Hellenism, the duty of heroes of [EOKA] might not be considered as finished”. Relative letter of protest of [Ntenktas] did not enjoy answer. And in the 30/11/1963, Blissful submitted the eminent 13 points of change of Constitution, forcing the treaty of Geneva. The refusal of [Toyrkokyprion] to accept him was presented by the Cypriot mediums as “Turkish mutiny against the state”. The more important Greek-Cypriot attack was the attack against [Omorfitas], suburb of Nicosia. Head armed parastate was Nikos [Sampson], which the Greek-Cypriot press called from then “conqueror of [Omorfitas]”.

According to the [yp]' No S/5950 report of SG of UN, “50 houses were destroyed completely also 240 partially. From the total of the 5.000 [Toyrkokyprion], 4.500 achieved they resort sure to the Turkish sector of Nicosia while 500 individuals [synelifthikan] and were led to the school of Nicosia [Kykkos], where were kept with other 150 [Toyrkokyprioys], emanating from the village [Koymsal]”. For this 150 individuals the Greek-Cypriot beginnings announced in their families for a lot of years that it should they consider them `[agnooymenoys]'. Other important attacks of Greekcypriots were the attacks in the Turk Cypriot pocket of Red [Mansoyras] (9/8/1964) and in the villages [Mathiati], Saint Vassilios and [Koymsal]. In the last one, the Greekcypriots parastate executed in cold blood 150 individuals. The creepiest photograph, that made the tour of world, was the one that presented three small children with their mother killed in a lake of blood in the bathtub of their house. Still, Greekcypriots parastate removed violently from the chirurgical clinic of hospital of Nicosia 22 [Toyrkokyprioys] patients, the traces of that were disappearred for ever.

The report of UN records 43 Greekcypriots and 232 [Toyrkokyprioys] `[agnooymenoys]' period 21/12/1963 up to 8/6/1964. The attacks were terminated when, in December 1964, the UN created “pocket” in that lived [Toyrkokyprioi] refugees under sordid conditions for ten entire years. The government of Blissful, apart from the economic embargo that imposed in their pocket, prohibited also the supply of strategic goods, as cement, tractor, male socks, woollen the clothes, etc. Afterwards the imposition of dictatorship in Greece, in the 15/11/1967, Greek and Greek-Cypriot forces [epetethisan] against [Toyrkokyprion] in the villages Saint Theodoros and [Kofinoy], where killed 27. The fact confirmed in the 21/2/1986 in the Greek Parliament and Andreas [Papandreoy], adding: “The enterprise was ordered by the headquarters of Greek Armed Forces… became slaughters and pillages”. The existence of premeditated drawing Blissful for the extermination of [Toyrkokyprion] it confirms indirectly also the [AKEL], publishing (July 1979) following: “Mr [Lyssaridis]… with the armament that gave him Blissful shaped his own armed teams, that with the teams of [Giorkatzi] and [Sampson] conducted, in 1963-1964 `liberating [agona]' against [Toyrkokyprion] so that to us they bring the `green [grammi]' and finally [Attila]”. The bad therefore enemies of nation were proved the extreme nationalists. We know him from the Greek history, but [Paschos] [Mandrabelis] us it reminded the Treaty of Oslo between Israelis and Palestinians. Then, extreme the two sides they collaborated for the imposition NO. [Men] “[ethnoprodoti]” [Rampin] [dolofonisan], Arafat it succumbed in his extreme. As resulting from, today flows the blood [amachon] and the two sides and day before yesterday the USA declared - for first time that is excluded the return in the old borders. A lost occasion. In Cyprus, the two extreme chairmen collaborate also for NO. An other lost occasion. Already the USA made statements…

[Oracle]

bir said:

As to Oracle's original question,the present separation is better for the TCs because their lives are not in danger any longer,as Expat correctly pointed out...When you hear horror stories of patients taken from hospitals and their throats cut,busloads of TCs disappearing,only to be found in wells some 45 years later,and 3 whole villages massacred,and all TCs huddled together in enclaves,you too would've considered the present situation better,if you were a TC Oracle...Trust me,I am not exaggerating...

do you have a link to the hospital situation.Because i ve noticed something on this forum concerning t/c they like inflating two types of numbers:

1)how many t/c were killed in the 1958-1974 period
2)and how much land they own in the south pre 1974

boulio

I've tried to get to the bottom of this hospital allegation with Bir before. It happened at a time when the TMT were knocking TCs off for even speaking to GCs and these patients (two men?) were mixing with GCs. So they seem like archetypal TMT victims and the fact everything is clouded in mystery and this scenario is constantly used by the likes of Bir, who has TMT roots, is all very worrying.

Bir has not come up with any real information relating to this incident yet uses it, in an exaggerated way, along with strings of other "atrocities" in his agenda to justify separation!

I am still trying to bring the dead back to life,so they can tell you their own eyewitness account,Oracle...They are all refusing to come back....One said "that racist reactionary bigot will not believe us anyway,so why bother?"...I will keep trying...

I was assuming you had raised them from the dead to give you an exclusive interview since you seem to trumpet some version with authority.

So, you don't have any information on this mystery, or how you came to know of it ....

Any chance of a reply or are you going to avoid this, again?

Any chance of you commenting on the article in Greek I posted?
Better still,any chance of you translating it so everyone can read and comment????

It's some one's opinion on gossip, hearsay and other matters we have all heard supplied before, endlessly, without any credible evidence. Some sweeping statements of his have already been shown to be implausible.

But, it says a lot that you pass on stuff without understanding it.

There, I gave you my opinion on that random non-official source you posted, but my (earlier) post to you remains unanswered.

You did this last time, I recall ...

[BirKibrisli]

bir said:

As to Oracle's original question,the present separation is better for the TCs because their lives are not in danger any longer,as Expat correctly pointed out...When you hear horror stories of patients taken from hospitals and their throats cut,busloads of TCs disappearing,only to be found in wells some 45 years later,and 3 whole villages massacred,and all TCs huddled together in enclaves,you too would've considered the present situation better,if you were a TC Oracle...Trust me,I am not exaggerating...

do you have a link to the hospital situation.Because i ve noticed something on this forum concerning t/c they like inflating two types of numbers:

1)how many t/c were killed in the 1958-1974 period
2)and how much land they own in the south pre 1974

boulio

I've tried to get to the bottom of this hospital allegation with Bir before. It happened at a time when the TMT were knocking TCs off for even speaking to GCs and these patients (two men?) were mixing with GCs. So they seem like archetypal TMT victims and the fact everything is clouded in mystery and this scenario is constantly used by the likes of Bir, who has TMT roots, is all very worrying.

Bir has not come up with any real information relating to this incident yet uses it, in an exaggerated way, along with strings of other "atrocities" in his agenda to justify separation!

I am still trying to bring the dead back to life,so they can tell you their own eyewitness account,Oracle...They are all refusing to come back....One said "that racist reactionary bigot will not believe us anyway,so why bother?"...I will keep trying...

I was assuming you had raised them from the dead to give you an exclusive interview since you seem to trumpet some version with authority.

So, you don't have any information on this mystery, or how you came to know of it ....

Any chance of a reply or are you going to avoid this, again?

Any chance of you commenting on the article in Greek I posted?
Better still,any chance of you translating it so everyone can read and comment????

It's some one's opinion on gossip, hearsay and other matters we have all heard supplied before, endlessly, without any credible evidence. Some sweeping statements of his have already been shown to be implausible.

But, it says a lot that you pass on stuff without understanding it.

There, I gave you my opinion on that random non-official source you posted, but my (earlier) post to you remains unanswered.

You did this last time, I recall ...

As I said,even if these poor sods came back to life and told you how they were murdered in cold blood,you will ask them to back up their claim with credible links....I will not waste any more time on you,Oracle...Enjoy sloshing around in your own ignorance and denials...Soon no one will listen to you let alone reply...