Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

... As I said,even if these poor sods came back to life and told you how they were murdered in cold blood,you will ask them to back up their claim with credible links....

Why would I do that? It would be their testimony.

Right now, it is you who claims to know for a "fact", what to the rest of us is only a mystery, from who I request some backing evidence. I have kindly asked you, many times now, for your source or original point of reference.

In the absence of any qualifiers, it's conclusive that this is more Turk-TC exaggerated mischief.

Okey,I will give you one more chance ,Oracle...
If you dismiss this one as "more Turk-Tc exaggerated mischief" then there will no point talking to you again....

http://www.yellowdocuments.com/18244707 ... istence-of

Right Bir ... let's put an end to this cat and mouse. I was asking you where you, yourself, first got this information. Unfortunately, I can't open your document and I don't want any more upgrades on this PC as it's on it's last legs (new one soon ). It seems from what others are saying it's not the original source but another partisan disseminating propaganda.

The reason why I'm persisting with this point is because of your loaded agenda which appears to be to use any deaths from our past as a justifying reason for continuing the presence of Turkey in Cyprus.

So, it's not whether there were (sadly) any deaths or not, but how the information is used.

This hospital incident is often manipulated, much as you have done, to parade as part of a list of reasons to not trust the "murdering GCs".

Now, I'll leave you with the post of "polis" which explains this particular hospital allegation appropriately in one of The Guardian's more sober articles:

The actual rumour was that Turkish patients of the Nicosia hospital were murdered and then pulverised in a mechanical crusher. The story was adopted by Lt. Commander Martin Packard and was eventually published in the Observer on the 2nd April 1988. On 3 May 1999 the Observer published a full retraction of the story. You can find the article here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/may/03/balkans5

For the record, Packard still maintains that a couple of Turkish Cypriot members of the Hospital stuff were indeed killed when members of the Samspon group entered the hospital. On the other hand the former Nicosia Mayor Lellos Dimitriadis has testified how he escorted the Turkish Cypriot hospital staff to the Turkish Cypriot quarters in Nicosia and was then nearly lynched by an angry Turkish Cypriot mob.

So, as I said, this story is one of our mysteries (the other oft'quoted is the discredited babies-in-tub) and it is unfair of you to use it to condemn us to imprisonment by Turkey.


"On April 2 1988, The Guardian reported the first details of a massacre which had fuelled bitter war and then ethnic cleansing. Those details were substantially wrong. They told half of the truth or none of the truth. But that, too often, is the story of massacre: and that is also war.
Nobody living, it should be said swiftly, is to blame for the tale that was wrong. Not the British (and subsequently UN) officer charged with its investigation. Not the Guardian reporter he briefed after a quarter of a century of silence. Not even the government (of Turkey) - which uses it still as a reason why people cannot live together."

These are the rumours, mysteries and mistakes by which you justify the thousands of GCs which were killed in 1974.

So Bir, what are you going to dig up next to try and praise Turkey's continuing occupation?

[aussieturk]

"Before 1974 it was no good. In the village we had two ­quarters, one for them, one for us. There was one church and one mosque. There were two separate schools. There was no co-operation, no visiting. There were terrible feuds. It's better now.

"The Greeks don't like us and we don't like them. We need to have separate states, though of course it would be good to have a better atmosphere," he said.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ja ... -greece-un


What thoughtless reportage.

So, everything was "separate" before 1974 and everything is "separate" now.

And, what makes this "separation" better now?

What makes it better - no fighting

[boomerang]

let me say this...you will never fiind out about the truth...it has to come within...every report is a one way stream...the truth and the re-writing of events will only come from a reconciliation committee and for that to happen you need democracy, human rights and the rule of law...ensuring justice for all...

but again, a fascist doens't know what he is talking about, hey bir?....

You are putting the cart before the horse,mate...Before the TCs will trust your democracy and human rights appeals,they have to be convinced that you really mean it...By all means let us have the Truth and Reconciliation commission now,to get to the bottom of who did what to whom and when...But you can't even read the document I posted with an open mind...It has to be full of inaccuracies and lies,simply because it says things you don't want to hear...Don't you ever ask me find proof of this or that again...so that you can dismiss it like Tiberius (with a keyboard) out of hand...

heheh how can you have any truth reonciliation commission when as recent events with the silence of balless talat everyone when deaf...

ok let us accept for a moment your article is the absolute truth...the question begs then why wouldn't every article piratis puts be also the absolute truth?... ... unless of course you subscribe to the theory they are full of inaccuracies and lies, simply because they say things you don't want to hear... ...it cuts both ways bir...

in the long term truth wll only come from within...to be the absolute truth...now you get it bir?

then yo go about the tcs and tcs that...have you ever considered how the gcs feel about the force expulsion from their homes and the abuse at the hands of turkey?...i suppose that went over your head...reason being in your own little world, democracy, human rights and the rule of law are all of foreign rights in the, tcs, minds along with the eu membership huh?...if the tcs have no faith in the eu, let them stand and say no...but instead they are too happy to receive money...

i suppose you feel hard done by the latest ruling regarding the orams...along with every tc, huh?...expecting every one to be a lawless society suiting your mentality...i can see you screeming on top of your lungs on the orams judgement day there are no human rights for tcs...

lets cut the bullshit and the chase, as you have mentioned regarding balless talat...you have no state, you have no political positions and you are trying to make a mockery out of the whole system by pretending to have one by having morons running around pretending and giving false hopes...especially in light turkey calling the shots...she would rather have you tied down, washing the shores everyday with settlers till the day comes for her to use the settlers as she pleases...OR if a plan comes that gives her total control over the whole of the island along the lines of the annan plan...see turkey still talks about the annan plan, have you ever wondered why?...quarantees ain't the only thing turkey wants bir...

and the blind mouce calls me a fascist...

[Tim Drayton]

... As I said,even if these poor sods came back to life and told you how they were murdered in cold blood,you will ask them to back up their claim with credible links....

Why would I do that? It would be their testimony.

Right now, it is you who claims to know for a "fact", what to the rest of us is only a mystery, from who I request some backing evidence. I have kindly asked you, many times now, for your source or original point of reference.

In the absence of any qualifiers, it's conclusive that this is more Turk-TC exaggerated mischief.

Okey,I will give you one more chance ,Oracle...
If you dismiss this one as "more Turk-Tc exaggerated mischief" then there will no point talking to you again....

http://www.yellowdocuments.com/18244707 ... istence-of

Right Bir ... let's put an end to this cat and mouse. I was asking you where you, yourself, first got this information. Unfortunately, I can't open your document and I don't want any more upgrades on this PC as it's on it's last legs (new one soon ). It seems from what others are saying it's not the original source but another partisan disseminating propaganda.

The reason why I'm persisting with this point is because of your loaded agenda which appears to be to use any deaths from our past as a justifying reason for continuing the presence of Turkey in Cyprus.

So, it's not whether there were (sadly) any deaths or not, but how the information is used.

This hospital incident is often manipulated, much as you have done, to parade as part of a list of reasons to not trust the "murdering GCs".

Now, I'll leave you with the post of "polis" which explains this particular hospital allegation appropriately in one of The Guardian's more sober articles:

The actual rumour was that Turkish patients of the Nicosia hospital were murdered and then pulverised in a mechanical crusher. The story was adopted by Lt. Commander Martin Packard and was eventually published in the Observer on the 2nd April 1988. On 3 May 1999 the Observer published a full retraction of the story. You can find the article here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/may/03/balkans5

For the record, Packard still maintains that a couple of Turkish Cypriot members of the Hospital stuff were indeed killed when members of the Samspon group entered the hospital. On the other hand the former Nicosia Mayor Lellos Dimitriadis has testified how he escorted the Turkish Cypriot hospital staff to the Turkish Cypriot quarters in Nicosia and was then nearly lynched by an angry Turkish Cypriot mob.

So, as I said, this story is one of our mysteries (the other oft'quoted is the discredited babies-in-tub) and it is unfair of you to use it to condemn us to imprisonment by Turkey.


"On April 2 1988, The Guardian reported the first details of a massacre which had fuelled bitter war and then ethnic cleansing. Those details were substantially wrong. They told half of the truth or none of the truth. But that, too often, is the story of massacre: and that is also war.
Nobody living, it should be said swiftly, is to blame for the tale that was wrong. Not the British (and subsequently UN) officer charged with its investigation. Not the Guardian reporter he briefed after a quarter of a century of silence. Not even the government (of Turkey) - which uses it still as a reason why people cannot live together."

These are the rumours, mysteries and mistakes by which you justify the thousands of GCs which were killed in 1974.

So Bir, what are you going to dig up next to try and praise Turkey's continuing occupation?

From the 1999 Guardian article quoted above:

Five months ago, however, Packard was back in Nicosia. He picked up the threads of the old horror. He talked with the Greek Cypriots who have worked with the UN committee tracing 'the disappeared' of that time. And he came to realise that the Georghadjis version was hugely inaccurate.

Two or three Turkish Cypriots had died in the general hospital when the Sampson gang came: but not in their beds, in the quarters of the Turkish Cypriot matron. The majority of staff and patients had been evacuated to safety under the personal protection of President Makarios. There had still been dreadful carnage. The hospital bodies were lumped with two dozen or so from other parts of the island - but stored in a cave, not incinerated. And then they were buried.

"There had still been dreadful carnage." - i.e. nobody is disputing that an atrocity took place, just that Packard's specific lurid account of the events was mistaken.

[Oracle]

... As I said,even if these poor sods came back to life and told you how they were murdered in cold blood,you will ask them to back up their claim with credible links....

Why would I do that? It would be their testimony.

Right now, it is you who claims to know for a "fact", what to the rest of us is only a mystery, from who I request some backing evidence. I have kindly asked you, many times now, for your source or original point of reference.

In the absence of any qualifiers, it's conclusive that this is more Turk-TC exaggerated mischief.

Okey,I will give you one more chance ,Oracle...
If you dismiss this one as "more Turk-Tc exaggerated mischief" then there will no point talking to you again....

http://www.yellowdocuments.com/18244707 ... istence-of

Right Bir ... let's put an end to this cat and mouse. I was asking you where you, yourself, first got this information. Unfortunately, I can't open your document and I don't want any more upgrades on this PC as it's on it's last legs (new one soon ). It seems from what others are saying it's not the original source but another partisan disseminating propaganda.

The reason why I'm persisting with this point is because of your loaded agenda which appears to be to use any deaths from our past as a justifying reason for continuing the presence of Turkey in Cyprus.

So, it's not whether there were (sadly) any deaths or not, but how the information is used.

This hospital incident is often manipulated, much as you have done, to parade as part of a list of reasons to not trust the "murdering GCs".

Now, I'll leave you with the post of "polis" which explains this particular hospital allegation appropriately in one of The Guardian's more sober articles:

The actual rumour was that Turkish patients of the Nicosia hospital were murdered and then pulverised in a mechanical crusher. The story was adopted by Lt. Commander Martin Packard and was eventually published in the Observer on the 2nd April 1988. On 3 May 1999 the Observer published a full retraction of the story. You can find the article here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/may/03/balkans5

For the record, Packard still maintains that a couple of Turkish Cypriot members of the Hospital stuff were indeed killed when members of the Samspon group entered the hospital. On the other hand the former Nicosia Mayor Lellos Dimitriadis has testified how he escorted the Turkish Cypriot hospital staff to the Turkish Cypriot quarters in Nicosia and was then nearly lynched by an angry Turkish Cypriot mob.

So, as I said, this story is one of our mysteries (the other oft'quoted is the discredited babies-in-tub) and it is unfair of you to use it to condemn us to imprisonment by Turkey.


"On April 2 1988, The Guardian reported the first details of a massacre which had fuelled bitter war and then ethnic cleansing. Those details were substantially wrong. They told half of the truth or none of the truth. But that, too often, is the story of massacre: and that is also war.
Nobody living, it should be said swiftly, is to blame for the tale that was wrong. Not the British (and subsequently UN) officer charged with its investigation. Not the Guardian reporter he briefed after a quarter of a century of silence. Not even the government (of Turkey) - which uses it still as a reason why people cannot live together."

These are the rumours, mysteries and mistakes by which you justify the thousands of GCs which were killed in 1974.

So Bir, what are you going to dig up next to try and praise Turkey's continuing occupation?

From the 1999 Guardian article quoted above:

Five months ago, however, Packard was back in Nicosia. He picked up the threads of the old horror. He talked with the Greek Cypriots who have worked with the UN committee tracing 'the disappeared' of that time. And he came to realise that the Georghadjis version was hugely inaccurate.

Two or three Turkish Cypriots had died in the general hospital when the Sampson gang came: but not in their beds, in the quarters of the Turkish Cypriot matron. The majority of staff and patients had been evacuated to safety under the personal protection of President Makarios. There had still been dreadful carnage. The hospital bodies were lumped with two dozen or so from other parts of the island - but stored in a cave, not incinerated. And then they were buried.

"There had still been dreadful carnage." - i.e. nobody is disputing that an atrocity took place, just that Packard's specific lurid account of the events was mistaken.

I wasn't making a claim to no deaths (2/3); but, the details are a mystery and it's certainly not the 27 as others have said. Yet, Birkibrisli was using the story with conviction to details which are unknown and not supplying evidence to his version of events so that we could discuss possibilities. Instead, he brave heartedly used it to condemn all GCs to suffering under Turkish occupation because we supposedly can't live together or have not admitted to (exaggerated) atrocities. Some like this, and babies-in-tub, are full of implausibilities for the whole truth to be found (yet) e.g. was it TMT or Sampson. IMO they don't count as a reason for keeping 43,000 troops here, now, pointing guns at "murderous GCs" or even for future Turkish guarantees. Bir is justifying keeping a whole country under arrest, for evermore, because he has made his mind up, regardless of the quality of his evidence ...

[BirKibrisli]

I think we have exhausted this topic,people...I couldn't be bothered to reply to anyone here any more...We have proved once again that we are miles apart,and the more we try the further we are getting away from the Truth...I see no point in repeating the same old arguments...Lets agree that we cannot agree on most things relating to CP and leave it at that...
Perhaps our leaders will work a miracle and find a solution in the next 3 months left on Talat's term...Because when Eroglu comes it will be back to the good old days of Denktas...And the slogans, " No solution is the best solution"..."There is no more Cyprus problem" "A Turkish Cypriot goes,a Cyprus Turk arrives"..."The only indigenous species in Cyprus are the donkeys!" etc etc....See you all in another thread...

[denizaksulu]

If I may add a little anecdote re: the Nicosia General Hospital incidents.

Previously I had narrated the events of 21st Dec 1963, where I was staying with relatives in the Kosklu Chiftlik area, immediately behind the Ledra Palace hotel.

In our house were 10 or so families from neighbouring houses. Safety in numbers and all that. How safe? God only knows. It was after we were watching the armed Greeks moving northwards to the Kumsal/ Kyrenia road Police station. They were on the west side of the river.
Anyway, one of the ladies with us (I cannot remember her name) was constantly screaming her head off and crying all the time. Her husband was a Cyprus Goverment veterinary surgeon. We knew him as Dr. Osman. The story of the screaming lady was that her 10 year old son was in the hospital (Nicosia General/old hospital). He was their for some reason (tonsils/appendicitis?).
The events of the 'missing' Turkish Cypriots had filtered out and of course this mother was distraught. Her screaming was demoralising to all. I had mentioned on a previous occasion that one of the men in the house was a neurotic Pharmacist. He used up his entire supply of Librium on this wretched mother. There was no contact with the hospital at all. About two weeks after the initial fighting had begun, there was a ceasefire.
Unexpectedly an English landrover pulled up and gave the parents the news that the little boy was safe and that he had been saved because he was amongst the greek boys in the ward. That was a happy ending.
I wonder if he remembers what happened.

This is my evidence. I think I may have posted this about two years ago.

[BirKibrisli]

If I may add a little anecdote re: the Nicosia General Hospital incidents.

Previously I had narrated the events of 21st Dec 1963, where I was staying with relatives in the Kosklu Chiftlik area, immediately behind the Ledra Palace hotel.

In our house were 10 or so families from neighbouring houses. Safety in numbers and all that. How safe? God only knows. It was after we were watching the armed Greeks moving northwards to the Kumsal/ Kyrenia road Police station. They were on the west side of the river.
Anyway, one of the ladies with us (I cannot remember her name) was constantly screaming her head off and crying all the time. Her husband was a Cyprus Goverment veterinary surgeon. We knew him as Dr. Osman. The story of the screaming lady was that her 10 year old son was in the hospital (Nicosia General/old hospital). He was their for some reason (tosils/appendicitis?).
The events of the 'missing' Turkish Cypriots had filtered out and of course this mother was distraught. Her screaming was demoralising to all. I had mentioned on a previous occasion that one of the men in the house was a neurotic Pharmacist. He used up his entire supply of Librium on this wretched mother. There was no contact with the hospital at all. About two weeks after the initial fighting had begun, there was a ceasefire.
Unexpectedly an English landrover pulled up and gave the parents the news that the little boy was safe and that he had been saved because he was amongst the greek boys in the ward. That was a happy ending.
I wonder if he remembers what happened.

This is my evidence. I think I may have posted this about two years ago.

I will always make an exception for my yegen...
Do you have a credible link for your evidence??? A UN source perhaps?

[Oracle]

If I may add a little anecdote re: the Nicosia General Hospital incidents.

Previously I had narrated the events of 21st Dec 1963, where I was staying with relatives in the Kosklu Chiftlik area, immediately behind the Ledra Palace hotel.

In our house were 10 or so families from neighbouring houses. Safety in numbers and all that. How safe? God only knows. It was after we were watching the armed Greeks moving northwards to the Kumsal/ Kyrenia road Police station. They were on the west side of the river.
Anyway, one of the ladies with us (I cannot remember her name) was constantly screaming her head off and crying all the time. Her husband was a Cyprus Goverment veterinary surgeon. We knew him as Dr. Osman. The story of the screaming lady was that her 10 year old son was in the hospital (Nicosia General/old hospital). He was their for some reason (tosils/appendicitis?).
The events of the 'missing' Turkish Cypriots had filtered out and of course this mother was distraught. Her screaming was demoralising to all. I had mentioned on a previous occasion that one of the men in the house was a neurotic Pharmacist. He used up his entire supply of Librium on this wretched mother. There was no contact with the hospital at all. About two weeks after the initial fighting had begun, there was a ceasefire.
Unexpectedly an English landrover pulled up and gave the parents the news that the little boy was safe and that he had been saved because he was amongst the greek boys in the ward. That was a happy ending.
I wonder if he remembers what happened.

This is my evidence. I think I may have posted this about two years ago.

I will always make an exception for my yegen...
Do you have a credible link for your evidence??? A UN source perhaps?

No one has ever asked you for "credible evidence" of your personal experiences (like hiding with your TMT-dad's guns and bombs) ... only when you make exaggerated claims using incidences to which you were not present ... and then only if you draw your own conclusions and apply them to justify another wrong.

But, even Deniz's account above can be analysed for perspective ...

[denizaksulu]

If I may add a little anecdote re: the Nicosia General Hospital incidents.

Previously I had narrated the events of 21st Dec 1963, where I was staying with relatives in the Kosklu Chiftlik area, immediately behind the Ledra Palace hotel.

In our house were 10 or so families from neighbouring houses. Safety in numbers and all that. How safe? God only knows. It was after we were watching the armed Greeks moving northwards to the Kumsal/ Kyrenia road Police station. They were on the west side of the river.
Anyway, one of the ladies with us (I cannot remember her name) was constantly screaming her head off and crying all the time. Her husband was a Cyprus Goverment veterinary surgeon. We knew him as Dr. Osman. The story of the screaming lady was that her 10 year old son was in the hospital (Nicosia General/old hospital). He was their for some reason (tosils/appendicitis?).
The events of the 'missing' Turkish Cypriots had filtered out and of course this mother was distraught. Her screaming was demoralising to all. I had mentioned on a previous occasion that one of the men in the house was a neurotic Pharmacist. He used up his entire supply of Librium on this wretched mother. There was no contact with the hospital at all. About two weeks after the initial fighting had begun, there was a ceasefire.
Unexpectedly an English landrover pulled up and gave the parents the news that the little boy was safe and that he had been saved because he was amongst the greek boys in the ward. That was a happy ending.
I wonder if he remembers what happened.

This is my evidence. I think I may have posted this about two years ago.

I will always make an exception for my yegen...
Do you have a credible link for your evidence??? A UN source perhaps?

If anyone doubts my word, I will leave the CF immediately. You can imagine what a loss that would be. (good riddance, most will say)

I never saw the little boy at all. There was a ceasefire and they moved to their home. But I can imagine what the poor woman was going through. Not knowing whether the little one was dead or alive. We all assumed he was dead, but she wanted to know. We did fear the worse and would not mention the subject within her earshot. Ofcourse when she saw the Armenian dead ,lying in the street not far from us, she would begin her wailing.

Ofcourse in 1974, many more mothers went through the same trauma. Greek and Turkish Cypriots.

When will it all end?

Let us all spare a thought for all mothers who have lost loved ones.

Dr. Osmans wife was one of the 'lucky'.

Somewhere there is humanity. Lets find it and 'live' with it.