Cyprus-Forum.com

[gabaston]

detailer

your welcome my friend....

[Alexis]

Hi Gabaston,

Thanks for your replies.

Like you I cant put my finger on the Makarios motives. Having become president he may have acquired a liking to being a national leader and buddying up with other leaders etc..Maybe he thought cypriots would be better off under their own rule as opposed to Athens. With so many differing factions to appease it is quite possible that his reaction to the constitution in 63 was out no pure frustration at trying to please everyone (an impossible task).

Very likely, I too believe Makarios tried to play as many sides as he could. but as you've said, it's impossible to please everyone, especially extremists (e.g. EOKA B, Samson etc...).

Re the turkish greek wars of 23 I admit to knowing very little about this. My understanding is that Turkish military resources were at full stretch. Especially regarding naval power, hence all the islands off the west coast of turkey are greek.

yes, I think that was the case, in any event, Turkey had just come out of the 1st world war and at this time, the allied naval power (mainly British) effectively controlled the dardanelles and the aegean.

I also believe that enosis did not equate with killing tc. However thinking that tc would have happily accepted being under greek control, seems a bit idealistic. It should have been understood that tc’s would never have wanted such a thing, much in the same way that tc accepts gc could not possibly live under Turkish rule. .

Yes there would have been upheaval for taksim, but without enosis there would have been no need for taksim, and if you want something you have to pay its price. The price was upheaval. The other two alternatives were tc accepts enosis (impossible), or war.

Anyway today we are faced with this situation. I think we’ll still be in exactly the same position in thirty years time. Where do you see us?

With hindsight, insisting on Enosis, whilst democratic, was obviously not the right direction to go in at that time. I can fully appreciate TCs not wanting to live under Greek rule for the reasons you've said. I would hope that we can move forward together now to unite Cyprus within the next 30 years, it's not looking great at the moment, but at least there is relative calm and people are now free to move all around Cyprus, I really think that was a big step towards reconciliation.

regarding the invasion and observers expecting it. i remember it well and the years before that. the actual invasion came as a complete shock to most tcc especially me. i remember the diplomatic tooing and froing of a few days and did not expect any military action. it seemed that turkey acted so straight out of the book, consulting first with Greece and Ecevits trip to consult with Britain, that the whole thing was pre-planned.

Britain was a guarantor power, but did nothing to stop the coup. It all seems too neat and tidy to have been spontaneous. these are just my thoughts though. still many questions to be asked, like if states and britain did start the coup why did they not recognise tc..................international politics is a weird place huh?

The 1974 invasion was a bit of a shock, given the relative calm of the preceeding years (especially after Grivas' death). The whole thing does seem to have been planned and perhaps the conspiracy theorists have some point when they link the whole episode to cold war politics etc...
I still feel Britain and the US had to keep Turkey onside at this time, if they did start the coup it seems odd that they did not recognise the TC state, but on the other hand perhaps not everything went to plan?
Who knows?

Anyway, I've got to dash, so see you all later.

[MicAtCyp]

I haven't seen your documentary my self, can you direct me to where I could possibly find it? I am in Pafos now. Is it available on the Internet?

Yes the documentary is in the internet. Guess which organisation uploaded it? The Acta news of course i.e the nest of the Grey Wolves!! Here is the link, the file is 103 MB so if you don't have an ADSL connection ask a friend who has to download it for you. You will need the Real Player or the "real Player Alternative" program to play it (The later is better and you can find the link by searching this forum)

http://www.atcanews.org/movies/atrocities.rm

**********************************************

Tony,

like other members have already said I think your work has been "used" and yourself have been "exploited" for propaganda purposes. I am an advocate of the truth myself too, but not half the truth. You should be patient and do a complete documentary for the sufferings of both sides before going public. Otherwise the results would have been those that you already saw...

I watched your documentary and I understand you did it based on your "surprise and schock" feelings when you heard of the sufferings of the TCs. I am not sure you can do the same type of documentary for the GCs because much of their suffering is already known to you and you will lack this pushing power of "surprise and schock" I beleive unless you cooperate with a TC you will not be able to produce the same kind of film.

May I inform you that most of the sufferings of both sides is already known with schocking details by the older generation I mean (GC and TC) people who today are more than 55 years old. I myself learned a lot of the schocking details by talking with such old people.Like you said your work is valuable for the younger and future generations.

Another thing I would like to say, is that you want to cover the whole truth for the period from 1960- 1975/6 and not just the "voices of blood" then you will need to do at least 10 documentaries like the one you already did.Obviously you will need some financing too....

NB. About the problems on your computer do you have an antivirus program installed? If yes download and install some spyware programs too e.g
www.lavasoft.com
www.pctools.com/spyware-doctor

[angastiniotis]

Sorry because of my limits in time and access to internet is not possible for me to answer in all details that is coming in the forum. I will only give answers about my work.

Why did I show only the one side and allow the Turkish Propaganda to use me?
This is the basic question coming to me through the year.

My answer
1. First of all I don’t see any other side when it comes to TC. They are equally my compatriots and any of their suffering is my suffering as much as GC suffering is my suffering.
2. It is a protest to the GC media and GC journalist that for 31 years never showed the other side, yet claimed that the TC are our brothers. For 31 years only GC suffered, only GC is missing; only GC was executed. Where was the GC journalists objectivity, when did the show a documentary about 74 that even mentions something between the lines about TC suffering. This is why I said to them “this is balance to the thousands of hours of programs you made neglecting the TC suffering”.
3. It never bothered me that the Turkish propaganda will try to use me and my work because I knew that if they did try to do so and make me a hero the they must accept the heroes next documentary that will show also GC suffering and if they don’t then everything they have said against GC democracy will return to them.
4. My aim was never to be against anybody TC or GC. You don’t have to hade the one “side” to love the other side. I love both sides equally and try to send 2 strong messages over
1 “LETS NEVER AGAIN REPEAT THE PAST; THE ONLY WINNER IN HATRED IS DEATH”.
2 “WE CAN NEVER HAVE PEACE AND SOLUTION WHEN EVERYONE IS ONLY THINKING WHAT HE CAN GAIN AND NOT WHAT HE CAN GIVE TO ACHIEVE THAT SOLUTION.

This is approximately my answer I don’t know if you can see my heart or not, but this is where I stand. It is so beautiful to live under a clear sky where the clouds of hade cannot reach you. Try it! It’s not difficult to love both communities at the same time, TRY IT!

Led me add one more thought worth thinking. Is it Turkey that we isolated with embargo in the North or the Turkish Cypriots? If we lift the embargo does it mean also recognition?

[angastiniotis]

Sorry because of my limits in time and access to internet is not possible for me to answer in all details that is coming in the forum. I will only give answers about my work.

Why did I show only the one side and allow the Turkish Propaganda to use me?
This is the basic question coming to me through the year.

My answer
1. First of all I don’t see any other side when it comes to TC. They are equally my compatriots and any of their suffering is my suffering as much as GC suffering is my suffering.
2. It is a protest to the GC media and GC journalist that for 31 years never showed the other side, yet claimed that the TC are our brothers. For 31 years only GC suffered, only GC is missing; only GC was executed. Where was the GC journalists objectivity, when did the show a documentary about 74 that even mentions something between the lines about TC suffering. This is why I said to them “this is balance to the thousands of hours of programs you made neglecting the TC suffering”.
3. It never bothered me that the Turkish propaganda will try to use me and my work because I knew that if they did try to do so and make me a hero the they must accept the heroes next documentary that will show also GC suffering and if they don’t then everything they have said against GC democracy will return to them.
4. My aim was never to be against anybody TC or GC. You don’t have to hade the one “side” to love the other side. I love both sides equally and try to send 2 strong messages over
1 “LETS NEVER AGAIN REPEAT THE PAST; THE ONLY WINNER IN HATRED IS DEATH”.
2 “WE CAN NEVER HAVE PEACE AND SOLUTION WHEN EVERYONE IS ONLY THINKING WHAT HE CAN GAIN AND NOT WHAT HE CAN GIVE TO ACHIEVE THAT SOLUTION.

This is approximately my answer I don’t know if you can see my heart or not, but this is where I stand. It is so beautiful to live under a clear sky where the clouds of hade cannot reach you. Try it! It’s not difficult to love both communities at the same time, TRY IT!

Led me add one more thought worth thinking. Is it Turkey that we isolated with embargo in the North or the Turkish Cypriots? If we lift the embargo does it mean also recognition?

[cypezokyli]

i dont know if tony is planning to show his movie publicly somewhere

well if not, couldnt it be organised by the forum?
i am not an expert but i guess it shouldnt be that difficult
a projector, loudspeakers, and a computer
we even dont have to do it inside,
it could even be done open air

so we could
practically give our support to mr. aggastaniotis
have the chance to meet with other forum members
enjoy the movie
plus
i would guess it is sth that it doesnt have much conflict of interest
or at least i hope so

[Realist]

angastiniotis,

I would love to wake up tomorrow and see this world of consolidation, but the very fact that your work is being exploited by the Grey Wolves proves otherwise. I would hope that all this TC praise for your work will be mirrored should you wish to proceed with documantary 2 relating to TC crimes against GC?

You speak of moving forward together, well you can only accomplish that when all want to move forward. Right now they don't. To believe that if I'm accomodating enough and trust in the ultimate humanity of people that there will come a point when they will remember we are all human is idealistic and dangerous. Only someone who has nothing to lose can honestly follow that path. Without trying to be disrespectful, perhaps it's easier for you to be able to extend the hand of trust and remorse because the group you followed was responcible for many of these crimes your documentary highlights. The majority of GC had nothing to do with EOKA B, but were effected in varying degrees by it's actions and the actions of Turkey.

Much like the idealogy of EOKA B, acting on just impulse, on passion, simplistic eutopian futures leads to making the wrong decisions.

I'd love to live in your world but blind faith is suicide.

[cypezokyli]

i am really sorry but i dont get the connection between angastaniotis work and the grey wolves.
just because the grey wolves use that documentary should angastaniotis stop his work? i missed the arguement somewhere. i didnt see anyone complaining that the film was based on wrong/false facts.
in my opinion angastaniotis is at a different level from the rest of us.
bc he is in a position to say i was wrong, i apologise.
and believe me that takes a lot of guts.
it also takes a lot of guts to change the ideas that u had during the first 20 or so, years of yourlife.

angastaniotis work was - i believe - directed at the gc. we cannot argue anymore that the film is a tc propaganda. unfortunately, the fact that no gc channel played the film shows a lot about our readiness to accept our mistakes.

the attacks of tc extremists against gc is not the work of angastaniotis but of a tc director.

if one is really honest about saying "i am sorry", then he does not demand that the other person does as well. b/c then the apology is nothing more than hypocricy or a bargain. and thats is what i believe angastaniotis achieved. apologise and mean it.
that is - i hope - what in the end makes us humans.

[MicAtCyp]

Led me add one more thought worth thinking. Is it Turkey that we isolated with embargo in the North or the Turkish Cypriots? If we lift the embargo does it mean also recognition?

So I understand besides the lets say "innocent" research of the truth you also have a Political Agenta not much different than that of the TC/Tr side.
Look Tony this is a discussion forum, not a forum of monologues. You claim you do not have your own internet line but this is no excuse to throw us "bombs" in here in a monologue type manner and then leave. Your so called "embargo" is an evidence for me how much you ve been affected towards distorted truths. Let me ask you some questions: Is the RoC such a strong International power able to enforce "embargos" ? Would you yourself accept to help a TC crooky bussinessman to fill the hotel he has stolen from you with tourists? Would you accept a TC or a settler to sell your own stolen house to a foreigner? Would you accept the TCs and settlers to flood Europe with products taken from our gardens when they themselves left behind not even 1/20th of the gardens they stole from us? Do you know that this "embargoed" place was the biggest exporter in 1974 of stolen TVs, refrigerators, furniture etc taken from our looted homes? Do you know how many thousand seacontainers were leaving day in day out going to Turkey? And you come here with all audacity to ask us to think about "embargoes"? The stolen goods my friend one day run out and become useless. Those who did the stealing are those who should think of the embargo they impose on their selves. Those who impose embargos on themselves should answer why they did not accept to return the ghost town of Famagusta on exchange of free trade from Famagusta port under the auspices of EU. So don't ask us. Ask them!

[angastiniotis]

To MicAtCyp specially

Sorry I don’t have a personal internet conection and I don’t drop bombs and go I come back every few days and check and try to answer but is not possible to do it everyday or for many hours. You don’t have to believe this.

Concerning everything you said you are correct but neglecting one truth. What about the hundreds of stolen goods taken from the TC in the 63-64. Did we ever return them did we ever apologize or did we do our best to cover up. And please don’t tell me we didn’t because I have done hundreds of interviews of with GC that have admitted these crimes, from one side of the island to the other. We have burned houses stolen lands and properties and killed hundreds of GC before 74 and in 74, but we never apologized because we had the upper hand. Does this mean it was ok for them (TC) to do it? NO, NO NO. But my point is that there are 2 sides of the story, both sides have harmed the other, that’s why I said both sides need to make steps of reconciliation. If 74 was the beginning of all the conflict then what you are saying would be 100% correct but unfortunately it is not.
I also lost everything in Famagusta.

About showing my documentary I am willing to show it any time and follow then we can talk about it.

Sorry again that I don’t have my own internet line.
Tony