Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

some people already did alexie

and some people will only do it when the other side does it first.

i said it before and i can say it again.

i am sorrry for what a part of the gc did to the tc at that time
i am also sorry that the rest of the gcs did in practise nothing else to prevent that.
for me the worst is not those extremists who killed, is that the rest didnt give a shit.
even though as i said before, i can not say that if i lived back then, under those conditions, the control of the curch, that kind of education, my beliefs would have been different. it is easy to say "the enosis dream was wrong" after you know the reults.
but it was indeed

[Alexios]

Unfortunately you are right first about expecting each other to do the first move and some people never doing it despite knowing the facts.Yes the majority knew and kept silent though maybe they did out of fear themselves.The biggest misfortunes in history occured when decent people saw what was going on around them, and still they kept silent..Its never too late however..

[blackley]

It is good to read the posts of Cypezokli and Alexios
One had to live in those times to understand how terrorism works. Imagine that you are in business and you are approached with the question " are you with us or against us?". A bad answer might bring the threat of some misfortune befalling your only son. There is no choice. It is generally thought that Grivas had only a few hundred men at his command yet they manged to coerce the majority into supporting them. Through fear of reprisal. I was there and I know this to be true from the Greek Cypriot people I used to do business with. Imagine if Cyprus had remained a British colony like Gibraltar?? Imagine if Makarios had waited ten or more years of peace, harmony and a raised standard of living for all Cypriots before he demanded a change in the Constitution. Imagine that it took 40 years of peace and prosperity. If only.

[Alexios]

Mr Blackley

In his memoirs "Georgiou Griva Digeni apomnimoneumata" Grivas states very early in the book that his biggest problem when arriving in Cyprus to organize the EOKA struggle against British rule, was people reluctance to join such struggle. A few hundred men however was not a large number to persuade and when they got armed it was not very difficult to "persuade" popular support...
Having said the above, I believe the British colonial office left matters to stretch a bit too far whilst the straw on the camel,s back came with the famous statement in July 1954,of Henry L. Hopkinson, minister of state for the colonies that, "There are certain territories in the Commonwealth which, owing to their peculiar circumstances, can never expect to be fully independent....." when questioned on Cyprus.
I think the statement persuaded Makarios who, as you well know, had at first very serious reservetions about the effectiveness as well as the possible consequences of an armed struggle against the British.

[blackley]

Alexios
Quote from Isle of Discord by I Stefanidis
“Yet Makarios' attitude to the use of force remained ambiguous even after Grivas' plans got under way. At the same time, he proved unwilling or unable to distance himself from the ring of extremists in Athens, possibly because he wanted to retain a measure of control over their actions too. Thus, in March 1953, Makarios joined the other members of the Struggle Committee in taking an oath to support Enosis unto death, in the fashion of nineteenth century secret societies. At that point, Grivas was appointed military chief of the struggle, but the Archbishop reserved the last word for himself." Makarios' conversion to the use of force appeared complete by June 1953, but he would continue to disagree with Grivas and his associates over the scale of the operations, which he wanted limited to acts of sabotage.”
Makarios did not leave any memoirs or diaries so it is impossible to say that he had reservations about an armed struggle against the British A year before the 1954 statement by Henry L Hopkinson that you quote, Makarios has signed the oath of EOKA. To quote from my novel, “Love and Death in Cyprus”,
“Makarios sat with his head in his hands, “I did not expect this savagery,” he moaned to his brother. “I said to show them that we mean business, not slaughter hundreds”.
This is my fictional interpretation that is at odds with the many public statements made by Makarios that included words such as “holocaust”, “hated Turkish race” and so on.
In a1974 interview with Oriana Fallaci Makarios said,
“I'm so incapable of telling lies, any lie, that when I can't tell the truth, I prefer to keep silent. Silence is always better than lies”.
That can only lead to the conclusion that all his public statements were the truth.

[Alexios]

Mr Clackley

I am half learned on the issue and thats worse than been completely ignorant..So i can neither agree or disagree on Makarios stance on armed struggle, atleast during its set up.
I would be grateful if you provide me with any facts on how many T/Cs were executed during the EOKA struggle? I mean ofcourse by the original EOKA in the period 1955-1959.Historians in Cyprus argue that these were a minute number both in absolute terms but especially as a percentage compared to the number of leftists and other anti EOKA G/Cs.

[blackley]

To Alexios
I will have to check my research notes but in a sense you are right. More Greek Cypriots were killed by EOKA for not supporting "the cause" than Turkish Cypriots in the period 1955-1960. You must also remember that the whole Cyprus problem was happening while the Korean and Vietnam Wars took place resulting in millions of deaths. This is not to suggest that any death is not important but the world media concentrated more on these major conflicts. I suggest Nancy Crawshaw's book "Thre Cyprus Revolt" as a good start to understand how events unfolded.

[Kifeas]

Mr Clackley

I am half learned on the issue and thats worse than been completely ignorant..So i can neither agree or disagree on Makarios stance on armed struggle, atleast during its set up.
I would be grateful if you provide me with any facts on how many T/Cs were executed during the EOKA struggle? I mean ofcourse by the original EOKA in the period 1955-1959.Historians in Cyprus argue that these were a minute number both in absolute terms but especially as a percentage compared to the number of leftists and other anti EOKA G/Cs.

Turkish Cypriots, as such, were never the target of Eoka in the 50's. Perhaps some TC members of the colonial police might have been affected, but this was not because of the person behind the uniform but what the Uniform represented. Such was the extend of non-targeting that the Turkish Cypriot TMT that was established around 1957-58, engineered ways to provoke such attacks. The first worth mentioning bi-communal attacks were noticed and marked in 1958 when TCs, acting under TMT orders, attacked many GC shops situated inside or adjacent to the TC quarters of Nicosia, burning and destroying many shops and forcing the owners to close them down permanently and move to other locations. A Similar action like the pogrom against Greeks in Istanbul in 1955, but in a smaller case. Then the next massive attack was the ambushing and slaughtering in the Ayios Vasilios /Skylloura fields of 8 GCs by TC extremists from the nearby Cionelly village, again in 1958. All these actions were aiming at provoking the EOKA to turn against the TC community, with the sole aim to justify and legitimise Turkey's political involvement in the Cyprus issue. Yet, even after such actions, any EOKA retaliation against TCs remained to a very minimum level, at least during the years before “independence” in 1960.

[Kifeas]

Another issue that needs to be mentioned is the deliberate attempt of the British colonial government to turn the two communities against each other. Right after the starting of the EOKa struggle, the British fired the majority of GC policemen serving in the colonial police force and replaced them with TC recruits. Not only that, but the British went further and they used mainly TC policemen in most cases where they were passing arrested GCs due to EOKA support and /or involvement, through the interrogation rooms and for the guarding of the GC arrestees in the concentration prisons of Kokkinotrimithia and Pyla. Of course the TC involved in these interrogation procedures were not treating the GCs with sweets and cakes only, but were also ordered to torture and beat them. This was perfectly within the British colonial policy of “divide and rule,” which aimed at turning the two communities, the one against the other.

[andytandreou]

Dear Tony,

After reading the views in this thread and seeing your film-documentary for the first time last night I would like to voice my opinion.

I loved your documentary, it's the 1% which was missing from what we knew was 99% certain, the killing of innocent Turkish Cypriots by Greek Cypriots. I was shocked at times; and when i heard about the 16 month old baby which was killed i was sick to my stomach and i almost cried. The documentary helped me realise that there are sick and twisted people on this island who, WE ALL NEED TO START IGNORING instead of actually listening to.

Although you are on the right path Tony, your documentary is totally one-sided and completely unfair to Greek Cypriots. I understand why you did it though. Greek Cypriots number around 800,000 people on the island and the overwhelming public opinion in Cyprus and abroad is that the Greek Cypriots suffered and the Turkish Cypriots didn't. You obviously wanted to balance this out but you may have opened a can of worms for yourself.

It's not right to criticize Greek Cypriot journalists for not wanting to show your film. This is a paradox as you are criticizing them for not being objective and only wanting to show the Greek Cypriot "version" of events, but you come along and present them with a film which is totally one sided and ONLY shows the Turkish Cypriots version of events!

A Greek Cypriot like me who sees the film for the first time is left feeling empty. I kept hearing numbers like, 89 T/C's killed in Tochni village, 67 T/C's killed somewhere else but i kept saying to myself "What about the 1700 Greek Cypriots?", "How do these small numbers compare to the 1700 which are missing since 1974", "How about the people who where confirmed dead during the invasion?". WHEN IS TONY GOING TO START TALKING ABOUT THE GREEK CYPRIOT MISSING AND THOSE WHO WHERE CONFIRMED DEAD?

To be honest Tony, i think presenting one side of the story is a big mistake which i hope you will correct by making another film which presents the WHOLE story. I know that you wanted to "tip the scales" in favour of Turkish Cypriots who we have largely been ignored all these years and to a certain extent you have accomplished just that. But at what cost?