Cyprus-Forum.com

[GhettoFighter]

Turkish Cypriot brothers we do not have to prove any thing to the greeks no not at all.

What we must do is to inform the whole world of the reality of the "Turkish Cypriot Holocaust" and make all the world to force the greeks to openly accept the "Turkish Cypriot Holocaust" and officially beg for forgiveness and declare that the Cyprus Republic was destroyed 41 years ago with the Bloody Christmas of 1963.

Then will the greeks visit the genocide monuments in Turkish Republic of North Cyprus and get down on their knees and beg for forgiveness from the souls of the martyrs and from their relatives.

How do you think in Europe after the death of 10s of millions of people; other europeans can get on well with germans? The germans officially recognised all the barbaric actions they did during the 2nd world war and devoted themselves to restoring their image round the world.

There's no difference between the natzis trying to hide the jewish holocaust and the so called cypriot Greeks hiding the Turkish Cypriot holocaust.

Turkish Cypriot brothers some of you speak here as if our side shares equally the burden of the evil brutallities against the Turkish Cypriots before the Happy Peace Operation in 1974.What are you doing?This is a shame for our heroice resistence between 1963 and 1974 which was against total destruction.

Have you ever heard of a Jew sharing the great evil of the Jewish Holocaust with a Nazi!!!!!???

Turkish Cypriot Compatriots; working for the acknowledgment of the "Turkish Cypriot Holocaust" aint no racism.But its purely an action devoted to bring the human beings into a more human level.

As you all see the fact that the "Turkish Cypriot Holocaust" is not YET known all around the world, The Greeks are acting as if everything on Cyprus is theirs and they are the only ones with sovereignty and tbe right of self governance.Remember that Nazi Papadop saying that the greeks sovereignly rejected the Annan Plan but he did not mention anything about the sovereignity of the Turkish Cypriots.

The weight of all the barbarianity between 1963-1974 is on the shoulders of the Greek Cypriot community.When they get ready to accept the responsibility of the barbarianities against the Turkish Cypriots and beg for forgiveness then you'll see that the greeks will be ashamed to call themselves "Cyprus","President of Cyprus","Cyprus Republic"

Only then can a fair deal be reached.

[Bananiot]

So you are saying that all GC's are evil and all TC's are innocent victims. That is a totally wrong and absurd claim. There were evil GC's as well as evil TC's. They were the nationalists who inflicted great pain on members of their own community above all. Do you remember TMT? Can you name some of the TC's it murdered? This is not about GC's Vs TC's. It is about a banch of nationalist butchers on both sides who never gave the young republic a chance to prosper. Both sides committed atrocities but real, true Cypriots seek to put everything behind them and start a new era. This is not a matter for asking for forgiveness but a matter of magnanimity because we all have something to give. However, for my part I am ready to ask for forgiveness for the actions of the GC extreme right wingers but, reading between the lines, of your post, I would safely bet that you are probably a TC nationalist with whom I have nothing in common.

[mehmet]

Ghetto fighter, we have to remember and then move on. Because at the end of the day it is better to be at peace with our neighbours than at war, I am not just saying that because of Ataturk, it happens to be true.

We need a solution that is the best that can be achieved today. Politics is the art of the possible, everythings else is showmanship, there is nothing to be gained from asking from your neighbours that they beg, apologise. If they (and we) are honest they (and we) will know mistakes were made.

[metecyp]

The weight of all the barbarianity between 1963-1974 is on the shoulders of the Greek Cypriot community.

What about 1974? Don't you feel some weight for what happenned in 1974? As I said before, there are no angels in Cyprus. Turkish Cypriot Holocaust and all that is useless. What happenned betwee 1963-74 is horrible but presenting this as Holocaust as if TCs did not do anything wrong is not acceptable.

[MicAtCyp]

Well I must admit it was wrong for me to use events of barbarosity expressed by TC fanatics and extremists in the past, to explain the real will of the majority of TCs.Because the same barbarosity was expressed by fanatics and extremists from our side many times in the past as well.

The fanatics however in both sides do have a stance with which the majority would not disagree
if it was possible to apply.Did the majority of TCs object to the declaration of a completely separate state so called Trnc back in 1983? Did the majority of TCs oppose any actions that would lead to its recognition? Aren’t the current efforts of Talat (backed up by the Anglo-Americans) to presumably end the isolation of the TCs, a disguised effort for recognition?

The fanatics in the GC side do also have a stance to which the majority of GCs would not oppose if it was possible to apply.And that is the absorbing of the TCs into the Republic of Cyprus with only individual rights(zero Political rights) and the return of all refugees to their homes and lands, without caring what will become of the TCs.

What happened is although the fanatics of both sides do still stick to their stance,the majorities of the people understand and accept that such goals are nothing but utopias. So they accept a Federal solution as a compromise.So far so good.What is the problem then?

The problem in my opinion is that although the GC side presented tens of negotiators ready to discuss for a real Federation, the TC side and Turkey were always represented by Denktash with no real will to reach this goal.Talat emerged in the last few months and all he is doing so far is just cashing the NO of the GCs to a plan that was clearly leading to 2 separate states in disguise.
So my original question still remains: What choices do we (the GCs) have???

[insan]

The fanatics however in both sides do have a stance with which the majority would not disagree
if it was possible to apply.Did the majority of TCs object to the declaration of a completely separate state so called Trnc back in 1983? Did the majority of TCs oppose any actions that would lead to its recognition? Aren’t the current efforts of Talat (backed up by the Anglo-Americans) to presumably end the isolation of the TCs, a disguised effort for recognition?

Have majority of TCs ever opposed to any actions within their own community ater 74?

No... The majority of a nation or a community is generally public minded. Their actions depends on political parties policies and stimulations.

The only part of TCs who opposed to the declaration of TRNC were leftists which they were representing some %15-20 of TCs in 80s but they never did a public protest activity against it ...

The ones who created the TRNC thesis and declared it were the well known status quoers. Though the constitution of TRNC says that the declaration of TRNC is not an obstacle for a federative common state is being found.

I think the statusquoers aim was to both give effort to a federative solution in frame of Turkish thesis and open the window for a seperate state. Why they opened that window? According to dominant Turkish point of view Greeks dominant political powers aim is to make TCs a minority and dominate them how they like... In 1983 they opened the seperate state window and told the whole world that Greeks didn't consider themselves as their equal partners so if they kept defending the same policy, you should recognize us as a seperate state.

Turkish thesis regarding the solution of Cyprus problem never have been acceptable for any of the GC negotiaters.

Many of them were from Makarios tradition who have an anti-American stance.

The fanatics in the GC side do also have a stance to which the majority of GCs would not oppose if it was possible to apply.And that is the absorbing of the TCs into the Republic of Cyprus with only individual rights(zero Political rights) and the return of all refugees to their homes and lands, without caring what will become of the TCs.

Is that fanatics opinion?

I think Papadopulos who is from Makarios tradition has a similar policy.

What happened is although the fanatics of both sides do still stick to their stance,the majorities of the people understand and accept that such goals are nothing but utopias. So they accept a Federal solution as a compromise.So far so good.What is the problem then?

The problem in my opinion is that although the GC side presented tens of negotiators ready to discuss for a real Federation, the TC side and Turkey were always represented by Denktash with no real will to reach this goal.Talat emerged in the last few months and all he is doing so far is just cashing the NO of the GCs to a plan that was clearly leading to 2 separate states in disguise.
So my original question still remains: What choices do we (the GCs) have???

There have been always two different official solution thesis which was based on a federative state model. One was based on dominant Greek political perspective and the other one was based on dominant Turkish political perspective. Those two one sidedly and self-interestingly prepared solution thesis could never have been fused into one that would satisfy both parties.

Why? Because both parties believe their own realities(though relatively) and are decisive to make other side to obbey it. For more than 40 years they have been challenging for this. And finally Turkish side managed to make dominant world political opinion to accept their thesis. Turkish side got almost %80 of what they want in the final round of the negotiations. Why didn't Denktash satisfy? Because it had %20 of absent of Turkish thesis and according to him this might cause TCs to lose that %80 after 15 or 20 years time.


By the way I'd like to ask GCs...Kyprianou who never exerted to find a solution on a federative basis was any better than Denktash as a negotiater?

And I think Papadopulos too is just the second Kyprianou..

[Piratis]

By the way I'd like to ask GCs...Kyprianou who never exerted to find a solution on a federative basis was any better than Denktash as a negotiater?

Looking back, it seems to me that after all Kyprianou policy was better. Vasiliou and Cleredes kept compromising in order to achieve a solution, while at the same time Denctash, instead of compromising, kept asking for more and more.

Some years ago we were calling people of DIKO (Kyprianou - Papadopoulos) and EDEK as "rejectionists". Personally I voted for Vasiliou when he was running for president. But now, when I see the results of their policies, I realized that trying to be the "good boys" in the eyes of the foreigners and keep making compromises was wrong.

Compromises from our side should have been made only at the time when the other side was also ready to compromise for a solution. Discussing with Denctash and Turkey (who clearly didn't want a solution) didn't result to anything else but compromises from our side without getting anything in return. (except from 'bravo' to Vasiliou and Cleredes from some foreigners.)

[Bananiot]

That is totally wrong. We were presented with much better plans to solve the Cyprob than the A plan but Kyprianou did not want to listen. Having signed the summit agreement with Denktash that cosolidated the Makarios-Denktash agreement, Kyprianou behaved as though he never really accepted the idea of bizonality within a federal system. I am not saying that Denktash was any better. Both had insisted for maximum gains for their side. The idea of a bizonal federation as a necessary compromise was loughed at by both men.

I feel that Papadopoulos is and always was a rejectionist (the term was used to describe people that did not want the solution based on bizonal federation). One has only to observe his recent speaches to understand this point. On several occasions his partner Christofias had to intervene playing the role of a firefighter to "fix" things after Papadopoulos´s "blunders". You see, its ok to be a rejectionist but in the eyes of the so called foreigners you must be seen as a serious player and a serious player cannot go back on the signutures of his predecessors, i.e. Makarios and Kyprianou.

The foreigners business is really a huge joke. We can not solve the problem by ourselves and we keep asking or begging the foreigners for help. Papadopoulos even sent a letter to the GS of the UN, late December, urging him to reconvene the talks to solve the problem before May 1st, otherwise Cyprus could face "europartition" if the problem was not solved by then. Once more he banked on Denktash´s intransigence. Little did he know that Denktash was sidestepped. So, he put plan B into action and he did what he did to ensure a big "NO" in the referendum. Now we blame the foreigners, as usual, and of course, everytime the foreigners tried to help they burnt their hands. Now, the foreigners have been replaced by our stakeholders, the EU, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they are nothing but bloody foreigners too.

Good have mercy on us.

[Piratis]

Kyprianou behaved as though he never really accepted the idea of bizonality within a federal system. I am not saying that Denktash was any better. Both had insisted for maximum gains for their side. The idea of a bizonal federation as a necessary compromise was loughed at by both men.

Thats why I said that Vasiliou-Cleredes made compromises without gaining anything in return. If Denctash didn't accept bizonal federation and was asking for maximum gaines, then this is exactly what we should have done also. Don't you see that today they tell us that A plan is suposedly "balanced"? If we insisted on our maximum gains, and we didn't made all those compromises without any compromises from the other side then nobody would dare to say that the A plan is balanced. Unfortunately, today they balance our maximum compromises with the maximum demands of Turkey, and the result of this balance is beyond what could be acceptable from our side.

the term was used to describe people that did not want the solution based on bizonal federation

The term was used for different cases meaning different things. The last case was the A plan, were "rejectionists" are the ones that rejected the plan.

Papadopoulos does not reject bizonal federation. He was very clear about it several times. It seems you see that he has the support of the great majority of GC and you are trying with such lies to cause damage to him.

Foreigners look their own interests, and we look at our own.

[Bananiot]

So, apart from a traitor and an idiot I am now a liar. I eagerly wait for your next civilised statement.

"I did not receive a state so that I can pass on a community", these were the last remarks of the sobbing address to the "Hellenic Greek Cypriots". If this is not a direct admission that he does not want federation then you are absoluteley righr. I am a liar! Perhaps you can give me one, just one sign, which may indicate that Papadopoulos has digested the idea of bizonal federation as the only solution to the Cyprus problem.

What about the naive attitude that we should have insisted on "maximum gains" throughout the negotiations, which were started by Makarios and Kyprianou that actually signed the summit agrements in the 70's? Is it not a joke to propose that the side that lost the war and 40% of its territory should go into negotiations looking for maximum gains, hoping for the best? Are youn really serious? I can imagine old Kyprianou saying to the victorious Turks. "Either you endorse union with Greece (maximum, remember) or else"!

It beats me. It is really beyond my understanding. We behave as though we have in front of us 100 different types of solutions (like a buffet) and simply we just have to choose one. It appears that some people think that we can even direct the events, simply because we are in the EU and Turkey isn't. Its a fallacy and can only increase our misery. Turkey is waiting in the wings of the EU and another 10 years wait means nothing for Turkey. Unless our hopeless president entertains the notion that we can veto the entry of Turkey.