Cyprus-Forum.com

[Expatkiwi]

I thought it best to start a new thread here so that my thoughts could be better discussed. I had written earlier about how I would see a unitary Cyprus created if partition was abandoned as a possibility by the north, and a partition plan if reunification was abandoned by the south:

Partition: In return for recognition of two Cypriot states:

1. Cession of TRNC territory to RoCy of Famagusta, Morphou, Lourojina Salient, Nicosia International Airport, and south coastal area of Karpass peninisula in order to bring TRNC territory to no more than 25% of the island area. RoCy to cede to TRNC strip of territory to join the Erenkoy exclave to TRNC.
2. Nicosia old city to be declared an open area for both countries. All TRNC and RoCy government facilities to be removed from the old city.
3. Removal of all Turkish and Greek Armed Forces and the UNICYP forces in Cyprus.
4. Cross-Accreditation of all embassies in Nicosia to both countries. Embassies of both Cypriot states to be located inside the Old City.
5. Total cession of all former TC-owned lands south of the border to RoCy, with equivilent amount of former GC-owned lands north of the border ceded to TRNC, with the remainder compenated to the RoCy by the TRNC.
6. No Cypriot country to be annexed - or to annex itself - to any other country, except with each other upon mutual agreement.
7. Free Trade between both countries and unrestricted movement between both countries by their citizens. Euro to be common currency of both countries.
8. No objection by RoCy to TRNC membership in international organizations.
9. TRNC to rename itself "Republic of North Cyprus" in order not to imply association with any other country.


Unitary State option: in return for TRNC to dissolve itself:

1. All disputed property restoration based on pre-December 1963 ownership.
2. No foreign armed forces permitted in Cyprus, and British cession of the SBA's.
3. House of Representatives seats based on overall population distribution.
4. Senate (upper house) based on community makeup. All four major indigenous Cypriot communities (Greek, Turkish, Armenian, Marionite) have equal number of senators (four), with two senators elected by non-indiginous Cypriots.
5. The President and Vice President elected by the House of Representatives and endorsed by the Senate.
6. Entrenched constitutional clause forbidding any secession or annexation (in whole or part) to any other country.
7. Affirmative Action policies in employment to ensure no discriminationatory practices against any Cypriot community.
8. Encouragement of English as the Lingua Franca (rather than Greek or Turkish) by the government in order not to show any community favoritism. This does not however imply removing the official use of Greek or Turkish by the citizens.
9. Only Cypriot holidays to be officially recognized and removal of the official status of the Greek and Turkish flags from the constitution.
10. National anthem to be unique. No official useage of either the Greek or Turkish National Anthem.
11. Dual nationality/citizenship not to be permitted. All Cypriots must renounce any other nationality.
12. Interim step of a EU police force and justice ministry for the first ten years.
13. Majority of Turkish Settlers (post 1975 migration) to be repatriated. Remaining settlers allowed on basis of (a) marriage to a Cypriot citizen, (b) Having offspring born in Cyprus, (c) renounciation of Turkish citizenship.
14. Current Treaty of Guarantee - Powers enjoyed by UK, Greece, and Turkey to intervene - overhauled with the EU assuming interventionist powers if situation on Cyprus warrants it.
15. Political parties - Those that espouse philosophies of ethnic nationalism, enosis, or taksim to be banned.
16. Seperation of Church and State. In particular, the Greek Orthrodox Church not to interfere in or influence matters of governence of Cyprus. Also, No immunity from prosecution for any clergy - of any religion - that espouses hatred against any community, or the government, and the governement not to favor one religion over another.

Your views on both, please.

[yialousa1971]

Why don't you fuck off, Turk.

[paliometoxo]

I thought it best to start a new thread here so that my thoughts could be better discussed. I had written earlier about how I would see a unitary Cyprus created if partition was abandoned as a possibility by the north, and a partition plan if reunification was abandoned by the south:

Partition: In return for recognition of two Cypriot states:

1. Cession of TRNC territory to RoCy of Famagusta, Morphou, Lourojina Salient, Nicosia International Airport, and south coastal area of Karpass peninisula in order to bring TRNC territory to no more than 25% of the island area. RoCy to cede to TRNC strip of territory to join the Erenkoy exclave to TRNC.
2. Nicosia old city to be declared an open area for both countries. All TRNC and RoCy government facilities to be removed from the old city.
3. Removal of all Turkish and Greek Armed Forces and the UNICYP forces in Cyprus.
4. Cross-Accreditation of all embassies in Nicosia to both countries. Embassies of both Cypriot states to be located inside the Old City.
5. Total cession of all former TC lands south of the border to RoCy, with equivilent amount of former GC lands north of the border ceded to TRNC, with the remainder compenated to the RoCy by the TRNC.
6. No Cypriot country to be annexed - or to annex itself - to any other country, except with each other upon mutual agreement.
7. Free Trade between both countries and unrestricted movement between both countries by their citizens. Euro to be common currency of both countries.
8. No objection by RoCy to TRNC membership in international organizations.
9. TRNC to rename itself "Republic of North Cyprus" in order not to imply association with any other country.


Unitary State option: in return for TRNC to dissolve itself:

1. All disputed property restoration based on pre-December 1963 ownership.
2. No foreign armed forces permitted in Cyprus, and British cession of the SBA's.
3. House of Representatives seats based on overall population distribution.
4. Senate (upper house) based on community makeup. All four major indigenous Cypriot communities (Greek, Turkish, Armenian, Marionite) have equal number of senators (4), with two seators elected by non-indiginous Cypriots.
5. The President and Vice President elected by the House of Representatives and endorsed by the Senate.
6. Entrenched constitutional clause forbidding any secession or annexation (in whole or part) to any other country.
7. Affirmative Action policies in employment to ensure no discriminationatory practices against any Cypriot community.
8. Encouragement of English as the Lingua Franca (rather than Greek or Turkish) by the government in order not to show any community favoritism. This does not however imply removing the official use of Greek or Turkish by the citizens.
9. Only Cypriot holidays to be officially recognized and removal of the official status of the Greek and Turkish flags from the constitution.
10. National anthem to be unique. No official useage of either the Greek or Turkish National Anthem.
11. Dual nationality/citizenship not to be permitted. All Cypriots must renounce any other nationality.
12. Interim step of a EU police force and justice ministry for the first ten years.
13. Majority of Turkish Settlers (post 1975 migration) to be repatriated. Remaining settlers allowed on basis of (a) marriage to a Cypriot citizen, (b) Having offspring born in Cyprus, (c) renounciation of Turkish citizenship.
14. Current Treaty of Guarantee - Powers enjoyed by UK, Greece, and Turkey to intervene - overhauled with the EU assuming interventionist powers if situation on Cyprus warrants it.
15. Political parties - Those that espouse philosophies of ethnic nationalism, enosis, or taksim to be banned.
16. Seperation of Church and State. In particular, the Greek Orthrodox Church not to interfere in or influence matters of governence of Cyprus. Also, No immunity from prosecution for any clergy - of any religion - that espouses hatred against any community, or the government, and the governement not to favor one religion over another.

Your views on both, please.

i disagree with all of the first as you knew all gcs would since its partition without even reading it..

the second is good ..

but.

8. Encouragement of English as the Lingua Franca (rather than Greek or Turkish) by the government in order not to show any community favoritism. This does not however imply removing the official use of Greek or Turkish by the citizens.

i still don't agree with this one because they have the headsets to translate and though English is the universal language i don't think i am alone when i disagree with this point.

also

I'm not sure about this one:

13. Majority of Turkish Settlers (post 1975 migration) to be repatriated. Remaining settlers allowed on basis of (a) marriage to a Cypriot citizen, (b) Having offspring born in Cyprus, (c) renounciation of Turkish citizenship.

I think a certain amount should be given the option to stay and the rest go home because after 35 years nearly 36 how many of them are married and have children? a lot of them. i think there should be a set number allowed to stay and the rest go home to turkey. unless the amount of turks who meet the criteria for staying that you mentioned does not exceed a stupid amount of turkiush settlers. what if they all have one or the other? do they all stay?

I think that would be a trick from turkey to get them all to stay. so i think there must be a limit on numbers.

Also you don't mention the army. currently all males in the north and south must do army so that is tcs and gcs, what would you propose for the Cypriot army men? do they continue under one? tcs and gcs working together to protect the island? or something else?

You did mention all foreign army men dont have anything to do with cyprus i agree Greece turkey and England. but no mention of the army to protect the island.

[Me Ed]

I thought it best to start a new thread here so that my thoughts could be better discussed. I had written earlier about how I would see a unitary Cyprus created if partition was abandoned as a possibility by the north, and a partition plan if reunification was abandoned by the south:

Partition: In return for recognition of two Cypriot states:

1. Cession of TRNC territory to RoCy of Famagusta, Morphou, Lourojina Salient, Nicosia International Airport, and south coastal area of Karpass peninisula in order to bring TRNC territory to no more than 25% of the island area. RoCy to cede to TRNC strip of territory to join the Erenkoy exclave to TRNC.
2. Nicosia old city to be declared an open area for both countries. All TRNC and RoCy government facilities to be removed from the old city.
3. Removal of all Turkish and Greek Armed Forces and the UNICYP forces in Cyprus.
4. Cross-Accreditation of all embassies in Nicosia to both countries. Embassies of both Cypriot states to be located inside the Old City.
5. Total cession of all former TC lands south of the border to RoCy, with equivilent amount of former GC lands north of the border ceded to TRNC, with the remainder compenated to the RoCy by the TRNC.
6. No Cypriot country to be annexed - or to annex itself - to any other country, except with each other upon mutual agreement.
7. Free Trade between both countries and unrestricted movement between both countries by their citizens. Euro to be common currency of both countries.
8. No objection by RoCy to TRNC membership in international organizations.
9. TRNC to rename itself "Republic of North Cyprus" in order not to imply association with any other country.


Unitary State option: in return for TRNC to dissolve itself:

1. All disputed property restoration based on pre-December 1963 ownership.
2. No foreign armed forces permitted in Cyprus, and British cession of the SBA's.
3. House of Representatives seats based on overall population distribution.
4. Senate (upper house) based on community makeup. All four major indigenous Cypriot communities (Greek, Turkish, Armenian, Marionite) have equal number of senators (4), with two seators elected by non-indiginous Cypriots.
5. The President and Vice President elected by the House of Representatives and endorsed by the Senate.
6. Entrenched constitutional clause forbidding any secession or annexation (in whole or part) to any other country.
7. Affirmative Action policies in employment to ensure no discriminationatory practices against any Cypriot community.
8. Encouragement of English as the Lingua Franca (rather than Greek or Turkish) by the government in order not to show any community favoritism. This does not however imply removing the official use of Greek or Turkish by the citizens.
9. Only Cypriot holidays to be officially recognized and removal of the official status of the Greek and Turkish flags from the constitution.
10. National anthem to be unique. No official useage of either the Greek or Turkish National Anthem.
11. Dual nationality/citizenship not to be permitted. All Cypriots must renounce any other nationality.
12. Interim step of a EU police force and justice ministry for the first ten years.
13. Majority of Turkish Settlers (post 1975 migration) to be repatriated. Remaining settlers allowed on basis of (a) marriage to a Cypriot citizen, (b) Having offspring born in Cyprus, (c) renounciation of Turkish citizenship.
14. Current Treaty of Guarantee - Powers enjoyed by UK, Greece, and Turkey to intervene - overhauled with the EU assuming interventionist powers if situation on Cyprus warrants it.
15. Political parties - Those that espouse philosophies of ethnic nationalism, enosis, or taksim to be banned.
16. Seperation of Church and State. In particular, the Greek Orthrodox Church not to interfere in or influence matters of governence of Cyprus. Also, No immunity from prosecution for any clergy - of any religion - that espouses hatred against any community, or the government, and the governement not to favor one religion over another.

Your views on both, please.

I think option 2 looks good with some very minor tweaking, and option 1 is the worst option for all cypriots - GC and TC alike.

This is because clause 7 in scenario 1 may result in a large number of GCs moving to the north and work in the south for economic reasons, i.e. a cheaper cost of living and easily commutible to the south as I would guess many of the inhabitants of the north may currently do

This may well shift the demographics of the north in favour of the GCs.

Perhaps this is why Talat is putting the proposal for free movement of Turkish citizens should reunification occur - but I would imagine that if option 2 is accepted, Turkey's acsention in the EU would probably happen quickly.

[Pyrpolizer]

Expat,

both your proposals are politically unrealistic, i mean there is no way for ANY side to ever agree to start negotiations based on them. Personally I think your Unitary State proposal is generally fine, but then you tell me how many TCs would ever accept it. Not even 1 in a 10,000...

Many people have noble thoughts but in practice they are politically impossible.

Let's suppose the GC side asks to start negotiations for partition based on land ownership and population percentage. This immediately implies some 18% split.
By the minute the GC side does such a stupid mistake she will be FORCED to start negotiations for partition with no preset terms *, and she will eventually be lucky if she gets 1-2% land back. Politics don't work the way commercial deals work. In Politics you may get it all without paying a single penny, and you may lose it all and pay all your savings on top of it.

Do you get me?

* the occupied areas will be recognised immediately, and the GC side will be forced to recognise it as well. The only matter left would only be how much land would be returned.

[Viewpoint]

I thought it best to start a new thread here so that my thoughts could be better discussed. I had written earlier about how I would see a unitary Cyprus created if partition was abandoned as a possibility by the north, and a partition plan if reunification was abandoned by the south:

Partition: In return for recognition of two Cypriot states:

1. Cession of TRNC territory to RoCy of Famagusta, Morphou, Lourojina Salient, Nicosia International Airport, and south coastal area of Karpass peninisula in order to bring TRNC territory to no more than 25% of the island area. RoCy to cede to TRNC strip of territory to join the Erenkoy exclave to TRNC.
2. Nicosia old city to be declared an open area for both countries. All TRNC and RoCy government facilities to be removed from the old city.
3. Removal of all Turkish and Greek Armed Forces and the UNICYP forces in Cyprus.
4. Cross-Accreditation of all embassies in Nicosia to both countries. Embassies of both Cypriot states to be located inside the Old City.
5. Total cession of all former TC lands south of the border to RoCy, with equivilent amount of former GC lands north of the border ceded to TRNC, with the remainder compenated to the RoCy by the TRNC.
6. No Cypriot country to be annexed - or to annex itself - to any other country, except with each other upon mutual agreement.
7. Free Trade between both countries and unrestricted movement between both countries by their citizens. Euro to be common currency of both countries.
8. No objection by RoCy to TRNC membership in international organizations.
9. TRNC to rename itself "Republic of North Cyprus" in order not to imply association with any other country.


Unitary State option: in return for TRNC to dissolve itself:

1. All disputed property restoration based on pre-December 1963 ownership.
2. No foreign armed forces permitted in Cyprus, and British cession of the SBA's.
3. House of Representatives seats based on overall population distribution.
4. Senate (upper house) based on community makeup. All four major indigenous Cypriot communities (Greek, Turkish, Armenian, Marionite) have equal number of senators (4), with two seators elected by non-indiginous Cypriots.
5. The President and Vice President elected by the House of Representatives and endorsed by the Senate.
6. Entrenched constitutional clause forbidding any secession or annexation (in whole or part) to any other country.
7. Affirmative Action policies in employment to ensure no discriminationatory practices against any Cypriot community.
8. Encouragement of English as the Lingua Franca (rather than Greek or Turkish) by the government in order not to show any community favoritism. This does not however imply removing the official use of Greek or Turkish by the citizens.
9. Only Cypriot holidays to be officially recognized and removal of the official status of the Greek and Turkish flags from the constitution.
10. National anthem to be unique. No official useage of either the Greek or Turkish National Anthem.
11. Dual nationality/citizenship not to be permitted. All Cypriots must renounce any other nationality.
12. Interim step of a EU police force and justice ministry for the first ten years.
13. Majority of Turkish Settlers (post 1975 migration) to be repatriated. Remaining settlers allowed on basis of (a) marriage to a Cypriot citizen, (b) Having offspring born in Cyprus, (c) renounciation of Turkish citizenship.
14. Current Treaty of Guarantee - Powers enjoyed by UK, Greece, and Turkey to intervene - overhauled with the EU assuming interventionist powers if situation on Cyprus warrants it.
15. Political parties - Those that espouse philosophies of ethnic nationalism, enosis, or taksim to be banned.
16. Seperation of Church and State. In particular, the Greek Orthrodox Church not to interfere in or influence matters of governence of Cyprus. Also, No immunity from prosecution for any clergy - of any religion - that espouses hatred against any community, or the government, and the governement not to favor one religion over another.

Your views on both, please.

Expat Id go for option 1 with added condition south remains in the EU the North stays out until a time it feels it is ready. This is due to the real ulitimate goal of the GCs who confirm it on this forum time and time again that their only goal is to reduce us to minority status taking away our community rights and take control of the whole island using their numerical advantage to our detrement and assimilation.

[Expatkiwi]

Why don't you fuck off, Turk.

Because I don't want to! Ask a stupid question...

[Pyrpolizer]

Expat Id go for option 1 with added condition south remains in the EU the North stays out until a time it feels it is ready. This is due to the real ulitimate goal of the GCs who confirm it on this forum time and time again that their only goal is to reduce us to minority status taking away our community rights and take control of the whole island using their numerical advantage to our detrement and assimilation.

And I thought our only goal was to massacre you.

The fear spreading tactics have always been so effective on TCs, weren't they VP?

[Expatkiwi]

This is because clause 7 in scenario 1 may result in a large number of GCs moving to the north and work in the south for economic reasons, i.e. a cheaper cost of living and easily commutible to the south as I would guess many of the inhabitants of the north may currently do

This may well shift the demographics of the north in favour of the GCs.

Perhaps this is why Talat is putting the proposal for free movement of Turkish citizens should reunification occur - but I would imagine that if option 2 is accepted, Turkey's acsention in the EU would probably happen quickly.

Clause 7 of Option 1 would include the proviso that those RoCy citizens who decide to live in TRNC can only vote in RoCy elections and vice-versa for TRNC citizens living in RoCy.

Option 2 basically is a total house-cleaning and restarting things in order to build trust. I should add that the Senate has to approve all House of Representatives legislation and it has to be by a two-thirds majority. The senate exists to stop any community-detrimental legislation from passing, plus it gives safeguards to the smaller groups of Marionite Cypriots and Armenian Cypriots.

[Talisker]

I believe every option should be considered.
Sometimes knowing the truth is vital.

Every Cypriot should have equal political standing.
Xenophobia has no place in Cyprus.
Partition is not the answer.
Annan's plan just made things worse.
Two communities can become one.
Know and embrace your enemy.
Internal conflict can be resolved.
We should not let history dictate the future.
Island life requires tolerance (or ability to swim).

After 35 years surely an answer can be found.

Talat and Christofias can do better,
Union within Europe includes all of Cyprus.
Reasoned thinking can bring illumination.
Know what you are looking for and you may find it.
?