Cyprus-Forum.com

[Expatkiwi]

Expatkiwi, as others have pointed out your pretext for supporting the TC stance on the basis they were 'bullied' by GCs completely ignores the historical context of Cyprus through the 1950s and into the 1960s. During the 1950s the GCs were the 'bullied', the bullies being the British colonial rulers aided and abetted by TCs who were provided with positions of authority as part of the 'divide and rule' policy commonly used during colonialism. The legacy of this was a flawed consitution when Cyprus achieved independence, one which, in my opinion, was not based on true democratic principles or application of human rights (TCs maintained unrepresentative power). This idea that TCs somehow deserve special privileges lead directly to the constitutional crises, the (Turkish-influenced?) TC policy in disengaging politically and socially (into enclaves), and ultimately to the 1974 invasion, and continued perception with some TCs that their community must have political equality (rather than one man one vote democracy) with the GCs.

Your other post that the TC kebab sellers were nicer than Greeks you met in NZ just indicates a shallowness to your thinking and is a pathetic explanation for your prejudice against GCs. If you cared to reflect on the positions of those huge numbers of displaced GCs and those that lost relatives and friends you might understand why GCs are holding out for a morally, politically and legally correct solution to the problem, and why they have little time for your half-baked stance.

I don't usually bother to engage with you because you come over as someone who sets out to taunt GCs (how sad a reflection is that of your character?) when many of them show their pain and frustration at the loss of their land, the division of their nation, intransigence in finding a solution, and oppression by an invading force. It must be bad enough to be taunted by the TC partitionists, let alone someone such as yourself who claims to have never even visited Cyprus and to having no Cypriot connections other than your 'penpal' status with Denktash. This in itself is surely an indication that you are allowing yourself to be used by TCs for propaganda purposes.

Overall, your reasons for supporting TCs are historically flawed, prejudiced by meeting a couple of 'nice' TCs and the fact you are flattered to be acknowledged by Denktash, and in my opinion show you to have a very strange personality indeed!

You're certainly entitled to form your own opinion and conclusions, Talisker, but - and lets be honest here - doesn't the tone of a lot of posts toward the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum by the Greek Cypriots go some way to confirming that the Greek Cypriots (here in this forum at least) are intolerant, bullying, and hostile to compromise?

[Talisker]

Expatkiwi, as others have pointed out your pretext for supporting the TC stance on the basis they were 'bullied' by GCs completely ignores the historical context of Cyprus through the 1950s and into the 1960s. During the 1950s the GCs were the 'bullied', the bullies being the British colonial rulers aided and abetted by TCs who were provided with positions of authority as part of the 'divide and rule' policy commonly used during colonialism. The legacy of this was a flawed consitution when Cyprus achieved independence, one which, in my opinion, was not based on true democratic principles or application of human rights (TCs maintained unrepresentative power). This idea that TCs somehow deserve special privileges lead directly to the constitutional crises, the (Turkish-influenced?) TC policy in disengaging politically and socially (into enclaves), and ultimately to the 1974 invasion, and continued perception with some TCs that their community must have political equality (rather than one man one vote democracy) with the GCs.

Your other post that the TC kebab sellers were nicer than Greeks you met in NZ just indicates a shallowness to your thinking and is a pathetic explanation for your prejudice against GCs. If you cared to reflect on the positions of those huge numbers of displaced GCs and those that lost relatives and friends you might understand why GCs are holding out for a morally, politically and legally correct solution to the problem, and why they have little time for your half-baked stance.

I don't usually bother to engage with you because you come over as someone who sets out to taunt GCs (how sad a reflection is that of your character?) when many of them show their pain and frustration at the loss of their land, the division of their nation, intransigence in finding a solution, and oppression by an invading force. It must be bad enough to be taunted by the TC partitionists, let alone someone such as yourself who claims to have never even visited Cyprus and to having no Cypriot connections other than your 'penpal' status with Denktash. This in itself is surely an indication that you are allowing yourself to be used by TCs for propaganda purposes.

Overall, your reasons for supporting TCs are historically flawed, prejudiced by meeting a couple of 'nice' TCs and the fact you are flattered to be acknowledged by Denktash, and in my opinion show you to have a very strange personality indeed!

You're certainly entitled to form your own opinion and conclusions, Talisker, but - and lets be honest here - doesn't the tone of a lot of posts toward the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum by the Greek Cypriots go some way to confirming that the Greek Cypriots (here in this forum at least) are intolerant, bullying, and hostile to compromise?

If they have to put up with people like you (who have no connection with Cyprus whatsoever) taunting them, then of course they are strident in their debate. As for GC interactions with TCs there is a variety of attitudes as one would expect, from friendly banter to heated debate, but very little which I would term as 'bullying'. Yes, they are intolerant of taunting and frustrations are bound to surface - after all, displaced GC forumers have to live with the thought that some of the TCs they are communicating with on this very forum may just be living in their (GC) own houses and eating the produce from their (GC) own fields, etc in the illegally occupied north.

However, you instigated this thread to explain your stance on the CyProb. Now that your 'reasons' have been shown to be ridiculous, or just plain wrong, are you going to change your views and position? Or do you prefer to continue to support illegal actions, and lack of democracy and human rights? I look forward to your evasion of these questions.

[Expatkiwi]

If they have to put up with people like you (who have no connection with Cyprus whatsoever) taunting them, then of course they are strident in their debate. As for GC interactions with TCs there is a variety of attitudes as one would expect, from friendly banter to heated debate, but very little which I would term as 'bullying'. Yes, they are intolerant of taunting and frustrations are bound to surface - after all, displaced GC forumers have to live with the thought that some of the TCs they are communicating with on this very forum may just be living in their (GC) own houses and eating the produce from their (GC) own fields, etc in the illegally occupied north.

However, you instigated this thread to explain your stance on the CyProb. Now that your 'reasons' have been shown to be ridiculous, or just plain wrong, are you going to change your views and position? Or do you prefer to continue to support illegal actions, and lack of democracy and human rights? I look forward to your evasion of these questions.

Okay, Talisker. I won't evade, but you're probably not going to like what I have to say in this reply. I looked upon the Turkish intervention and the aftermath as 'payback' for what the Turkish Cypriots suffered and had to live with since 1963. The analagy "When you steal from a thief, the one thing you don't do is call the cops" comes into play here. In short: the bullies got a taste of their own medicine, and the bullies didn't like it. Had Enosis succeeded, do you think you would have given a damn about the former Turkish Cypriots who were ever killed or ejected from the island? You would have at the very most referred to it as "an unfortunate part of history", and certainly not invited them back to the island to live. Be honest about that!

Now, I'm in agreement that there are shortcomings in the TRNC as regards proper democracy and human rights, but that is primarilly due to the siege mentality of the isolations imposed by the RoCy and UN. If nothing else, these isolations further made TRNC dependent upon Turkey, which those there who favor annexation must love.
And as for me, well, I didn't instigate the 'taunts'. That came from GR who started it all with a thread about me and then started his blackmail tactics. As I said to you and others earlier: question my intelligence, that's okay, but question my integrity, and that's a red line you step over.

The bottom line, Talisker, is this: If you don't like what I have to say, either do not respond, or engage in serious debate - like what we're doing here. I'll be honest with you, if you'll be honest with me. And honestly, due to the mistrust and the legacy of the intercommunal violence on Cyprus, I can't see reconciliation working, which is why I favor the partition option. And until I do see that reconciliation has a chance of succeeding, I'll stick to my stance of TRNC recognition as a soveriegn nation.

[Pyrpolizer]

Expat,

I will start with 2 major observations regarding the behavior of foreigners (mainly the British) who ve bought properties either for retiring or for having a holiday home in Cyprus.

a)The vast majority of those who bought stolen GC properties in the occupied are those who failed in their lives or rich people with no morals. The first category for obvious reasons have the exact same victim mentality as the TCs. They justify their criminal acts the same way the TC seller of stolen GC properties does. Taking your own words they feel they give a taste to those bastards "of their own medicine". Their behavior to GCs is genereally HOSTILE, and regarding the Cyprob they are more fanatics that the TC themselves. For pbvious reasons they fear any sort of solution, and they would love to see partition.

b) Those who ‘ve bought properties in the Government controlled areas. Most of them of medium to high income or poor people with morals. They do not care for the Cyprob, they certainly don’t take sides and perhaps the only political thing you could get out of them is that Britain should have done more for Cyprus.

Your behaviour falls squarely under "a" above. Many of your responses like

I have not had the "pleasure" of metting a GC and TC simultaneously. I didn't want to witness a mutual murder attempt....

are atcully cliches of fear spreading TCs like Denktash and Viewpoint, also adopted by foreigners of group "a"

I have then asked you a few questions trying to get some more supporting evidence on whether you are really a group "a" foreigner. The fact is you did a fine job helping me with your replies, thanks.

Here’s some background regarding the maps question. Two years ago I also got an interest on digital maps. In fact I managed to pass on my GPS 5 different maps: All the Google satelite, all OpenStreet map data, and all MSN data, for the whole of Cyprus at zoom levels 5 to 18. Plus 4 other types of maps for the government controlled areas.. Unfortunately with the exception of satelite maps 2 years ago, there was almost nothing online for the occupied areas . I believed you when you said there was also complete absense of any data on Wiki as well, because I experienced the same thing myself. The point is however that you were hiding something when you said you found your data online from other maps. I asked you from the beginning to describe in detail how you placed the landmarks you mentioned, and instead of doing so, you were each time giving me incomplete answers followed by excuses like "oh I found the data online"- when I said they are nowhere online, you said oh that one I recognised, the other one I stumbbled upon because I knew it had the trees outside, that one I used a road map I bought. ..

I take it for granded that you do live in Arkansas, no questions about that, and that you also never met GCs. So my conclussion for as to why your stance is the way it is, is this:

Because you are one of those foreigners who bought stolen GC property in the occupied. You lived there for some years, and you know the place well enough to be able to place landmarks on digital maps.You left before 2004, hence you never met any GCs. Most propably you still own stolen GC property there.

[Talisker]

If they have to put up with people like you (who have no connection with Cyprus whatsoever) taunting them, then of course they are strident in their debate. As for GC interactions with TCs there is a variety of attitudes as one would expect, from friendly banter to heated debate, but very little which I would term as 'bullying'. Yes, they are intolerant of taunting and frustrations are bound to surface - after all, displaced GC forumers have to live with the thought that some of the TCs they are communicating with on this very forum may just be living in their (GC) own houses and eating the produce from their (GC) own fields, etc in the illegally occupied north.

However, you instigated this thread to explain your stance on the CyProb. Now that your 'reasons' have been shown to be ridiculous, or just plain wrong, are you going to change your views and position? Or do you prefer to continue to support illegal actions, and lack of democracy and human rights? I look forward to your evasion of these questions.

Okay, Talisker. I won't evade, but you're probably not going to like what I have to say in this reply. I looked upon the Turkish intervention and the aftermath as 'payback' for what the Turkish Cypriots suffered and had to live with since 1963. The analagy "When you steal from a thief, the one thing you don't do is call the cops" comes into play here. In short: the bullies got a taste of their own medicine, and the bullies didn't like it. Had Enosis succeeded, do you think you would have given a damn about the former Turkish Cypriots who were ever killed or ejected from the island? You would have at the very most referred to it as "an unfortunate part of history", and certainly not invited them back to the island to live. Be honest about that!

Now, I'm in agreement that there are shortcomings in the TRNC as regards proper democracy and human rights, but that is primarilly due to the siege mentality of the isolations imposed by the RoCy and UN. If nothing else, these isolations further made TRNC dependent upon Turkey, which those there who favor annexation must love.
And as for me, well, I didn't instigate the 'taunts'. That came from GR who started it all with a thread about me and then started his blackmail tactics. As I said to you and others earlier: question my intelligence, that's okay, but question my integrity, and that's a red line you step over.

The bottom line, Talisker, is this: If you don't like what I have to say, either do not respond, or engage in serious debate - like what we're doing here. I'll be honest with you, if you'll be honest with me. And honestly, due to the mistrust and the legacy of the intercommunal violence on Cyprus, I can't see reconciliation working, which is why I favor the partition option. And until I do see that reconciliation has a chance of succeeding, I'll stick to my stance of TRNC recognition as a soveriegn nation.

Sorry, Expatkiwi, but it isn't worth my time to engage with you in debate about CyProb. Within a couple of posts of dialogue between us in this thread you've shown you have no interest in acknowledging your flawed and incomplete understanding of who the real bullies are in all of this - in other words you choose to ignore history. I also find your (gleeful?) acceptance of the concept of criminal 'payback' abhorrent, as this shows you lack moral fibre through acceptance of vengeance as a tolerable aspect of life. I also can't believe that as a US resident you don't accept simple democratic principles, and if the majority of Cypriots wanted enosis with Greece then the TCs as Cypriots should have accepted this. I don't accept TCs would have been wiped out under these hypothetical circumstances (after all, even today there is a sizeable Turkish community within Greece). Finally, you obviously have no faith in humankind - either in the willingness of GCs to peacefully welcome and accept TCs back into a free and democratic united Cyprus with political equality for each individual, or of the ability of TCs to survive and prosper in a reintegrated society (you'd prefer they hide behind a wall of Turkish soldiers and face cultural extinction as they become swamped by Anatolian settlers). I'm outta here.......

[Viewpoint]

If they have to put up with people like you (who have no connection with Cyprus whatsoever) taunting them, then of course they are strident in their debate. As for GC interactions with TCs there is a variety of attitudes as one would expect, from friendly banter to heated debate, but very little which I would term as 'bullying'. Yes, they are intolerant of taunting and frustrations are bound to surface - after all, displaced GC forumers have to live with the thought that some of the TCs they are communicating with on this very forum may just be living in their (GC) own houses and eating the produce from their (GC) own fields, etc in the illegally occupied north.

However, you instigated this thread to explain your stance on the CyProb. Now that your 'reasons' have been shown to be ridiculous, or just plain wrong, are you going to change your views and position? Or do you prefer to continue to support illegal actions, and lack of democracy and human rights? I look forward to your evasion of these questions.

Okay, Talisker. I won't evade, but you're probably not going to like what I have to say in this reply. I looked upon the Turkish intervention and the aftermath as 'payback' for what the Turkish Cypriots suffered and had to live with since 1963. The analagy "When you steal from a thief, the one thing you don't do is call the cops" comes into play here. In short: the bullies got a taste of their own medicine, and the bullies didn't like it. Had Enosis succeeded, do you think you would have given a damn about the former Turkish Cypriots who were ever killed or ejected from the island? You would have at the very most referred to it as "an unfortunate part of history", and certainly not invited them back to the island to live. Be honest about that!

Now, I'm in agreement that there are shortcomings in the TRNC as regards proper democracy and human rights, but that is primarilly due to the siege mentality of the isolations imposed by the RoCy and UN. If nothing else, these isolations further made TRNC dependent upon Turkey, which those there who favor annexation must love.
And as for me, well, I didn't instigate the 'taunts'. That came from GR who started it all with a thread about me and then started his blackmail tactics. As I said to you and others earlier: question my intelligence, that's okay, but question my integrity, and that's a red line you step over.

The bottom line, Talisker, is this: If you don't like what I have to say, either do not respond, or engage in serious debate - like what we're doing here. I'll be honest with you, if you'll be honest with me. And honestly, due to the mistrust and the legacy of the intercommunal violence on Cyprus, I can't see reconciliation working, which is why I favor the partition option. And until I do see that reconciliation has a chance of succeeding, I'll stick to my stance of TRNC recognition as a soveriegn nation.

Great post expat, well done.

[Oracle]

Because you are one of those foreigners who bought stolen GC property in the occupied. You lived there for some years, and you know the place well enough to be able to place landmarks on digital maps.You left before 2004, hence you never met any GCs. Most propably you still own stolen GC property there.

Suddenly a lot of pieces are falling into place .... (especially making a "pen-pal" of Denktash).

[Viewpoint]

If they have to put up with people like you (who have no connection with Cyprus whatsoever) taunting them, then of course they are strident in their debate. As for GC interactions with TCs there is a variety of attitudes as one would expect, from friendly banter to heated debate, but very little which I would term as 'bullying'. Yes, they are intolerant of taunting and frustrations are bound to surface - after all, displaced GC forumers have to live with the thought that some of the TCs they are communicating with on this very forum may just be living in their (GC) own houses and eating the produce from their (GC) own fields, etc in the illegally occupied north.

However, you instigated this thread to explain your stance on the CyProb. Now that your 'reasons' have been shown to be ridiculous, or just plain wrong, are you going to change your views and position? Or do you prefer to continue to support illegal actions, and lack of democracy and human rights? I look forward to your evasion of these questions.

Okay, Talisker. I won't evade, but you're probably not going to like what I have to say in this reply. I looked upon the Turkish intervention and the aftermath as 'payback' for what the Turkish Cypriots suffered and had to live with since 1963. The analagy "When you steal from a thief, the one thing you don't do is call the cops" comes into play here. In short: the bullies got a taste of their own medicine, and the bullies didn't like it. Had Enosis succeeded, do you think you would have given a damn about the former Turkish Cypriots who were ever killed or ejected from the island? You would have at the very most referred to it as "an unfortunate part of history", and certainly not invited them back to the island to live. Be honest about that!

Now, I'm in agreement that there are shortcomings in the TRNC as regards proper democracy and human rights, but that is primarilly due to the siege mentality of the isolations imposed by the RoCy and UN. If nothing else, these isolations further made TRNC dependent upon Turkey, which those there who favor annexation must love.
And as for me, well, I didn't instigate the 'taunts'. That came from GR who started it all with a thread about me and then started his blackmail tactics. As I said to you and others earlier: question my intelligence, that's okay, but question my integrity, and that's a red line you step over.

The bottom line, Talisker, is this: If you don't like what I have to say, either do not respond, or engage in serious debate - like what we're doing here. I'll be honest with you, if you'll be honest with me. And honestly, due to the mistrust and the legacy of the intercommunal violence on Cyprus, I can't see reconciliation working, which is why I favor the partition option. And until I do see that reconciliation has a chance of succeeding, I'll stick to my stance of TRNC recognition as a soveriegn nation.

Sorry, Expatkiwi, but it isn't worth my time to engage with you in debate about CyProb. Within a couple of posts of dialogue between us in this thread you've shown you have no interest in acknowledging your flawed and incomplete understanding of who the real bullies are in all of this - in other words you choose to ignore history. I also find your (gleeful?) acceptance of the concept of criminal 'payback' abhorrent, as this shows you lack moral fibre through acceptance of vengeance as a tolerable aspect of life. I also can't believe that as a US resident you don't accept simple democratic principles, and if the majority of Cypriots wanted enosis with Greece then the TCs as Cypriots should have accepted this. I don't accept TCs would have been wiped out under these hypothetical circumstances (after all, even today there is a sizeable Turkish community within Greece). Finally, you obviously have no faith in humankind - either in the willingness of GCs to peacefully welcome and accept TCs back into a free and democratic united Cyprus with political equality for each individual, or of the ability of TCs to survive and prosper in a reintegrated society (you'd prefer they hide behind a wall of Turkish soldiers and face cultural extinction as they become swamped by Anatolian settlers). I'm outta here.......

Usual excuses, accept it you fucked up big time and got your butts slapped real hard, time you realized you cannot turn TCs into just another minority its a BBf with politicla equality or the current status quo, your viewpoint obviously reveals you choose the status quo.

[Pyrpolizer]

Hey Talisker, but according to Exapt we are still the bullies forcing the TCs into isolation.

Could someone please explain Expat how the great TC leaders managed their first strike of isolating their own people after 1974 and leading them to economic decline by depriving them all their Exports? When was it -1984?

[Pyrpolizer]

Usual excuses, accept it you fucked up big time and got your butts slapped real hard, time you realized you cannot turn TCs into just another minority its a BBf with politicla equality or the current status quo, your viewpoint obviously reveals you choose the status quo.

Why this angry tone my love?
If this is what you want then we agree. From as long as i know you however both you and Expat wanted partition, am I missing something?