Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

I am very sorry but I am NOT convinced. Neither the Ataturk stadium nor Bayrak are marked on any ONLINE map. Because they are both very far away from the Center of Nocosia that those maps cover. You said there were no landmarks on WikiMap when you joined so you were the first one to put those.

So how on earth someone who has never been in Cyprus managed to locate and mark positions of places he's never seen or been before, is beyond my comprehension.
It's like telling me to mark the Gandi stadium on the map of New Delhi in India. How would I know? It would be extremely hard for me even if I had descriptions etc.

It's also amazing to me how you knew there was a lettering BRTK made of trees outside that building and how you "accidentally" stumbled upon it and recognized the mirror image of those letters!! Having your information in hand it was still hard for me to locate it, and i had to zoom my screen to full to show just that building. And still at that zoom level I missed the letters twice, because of their mirror image form.

I am not convinced that you live in Arkansas either. It's not necessary to give me your address....

If you have something to say to convince me then fine.
Otherwise I am very sorry but I have to tell my own opinion as to why your stance is "the way it is".

[EPSILON]

A number of you out there have asked me what my motivation truly is in my supporting the independence of North Cyprus. I have been ridiculed, criticized, demeaned, threatened, and also one attempt at blackmail was levelled against me. Not only my intelligence, but my integrity in general has been brought into question. Also, people are doubting my nationality and claiming that I'm a Turkish Cypriot in Kiwi clothing. I think it best to explain it to you all in detail, and - as hard as this may seem to a number of you - please hold off the sarcasm and disbelief when framing your reply.

My interest in Cyprus began in 1984 as part of a course I was taking in political science back in Auckland. North Cyprus had only just recently announced its unilateral declaration of independence. The course touched on Cyprus and its internal and external problems since 1960, and an assignment was required to discuss the Cyprus Problem and the events that led up to the UDI, and the aftermath, which I researched what data I could find in order to complete my assignment. What I discovered raised some questions with me.

To me, I felt it rather absurd that a majority (the GC's) would feel threatened by a minority (the TC's), and that on that basis, moves for enosis and TC marginialization bore the hallmarks of crude bullying tactics. The non-presence of the Turkish Cypriots in government and the enclaves (likened to Bantustans) made me conclude that the Greek Cypriots had no interest in sharing with the Turkish Cypriots, so when I read about the attempted coup, and Turkey's response, my reaction was that the bullies ended up getting their asses kicked because the bullied had a friend to defend them (Turkey). Bullies getting themselves bullied back to me is pure poetic justice.
So, when the 1983 UDI took place, it seemed to be to be logical, given that the majority didn't want the minority, so the minority made their own country. Simplistic, I know, but my favoring the Turkish Cypriots was a mixture of logic and sympathy.

Over the years, especially after I emigrated to the USA, I met and got to know a number of Turkish Cypriot migrants to the USA, and what they told me confirmed that my stance was the morally correct one. My disdain for the GC's grew over the isolations imposed on North Cyprus, which also served to reinforce my view of their being nothing more than a bullying mob.

My being welcomed on sites such at ATCA, plus the personal rapports I had built (in person with M. Mustafagolu, and by mail with R. Denktas) made me feel even more secure in the knowledge that I had made the right choice. And - and I'm not being nasty here - the accusations and slurs directed at me by the GC members of this forum didn't help your side one little bit with me. It reinforced my percetion of GC's as intolerant and politically radical. The few migrant Greeks here in the USA I met and talked to had those very same traits of "my way, or the highway".

So where does this leave me now? Well, I have to say that I'm still not convinced that the GC's no longer harbor any ill-will towards the TC's, so that's why I'm not in favor of reunification. But reading about Turkey's influences in North Cyprus and how the Turkish Cypriots themselves are regarded by the Turks have shaken me some. The current trends tend to the steady Turkification of North Cyprus into a Turkish province, plus the utter reliance on Turkey for trade and contacts with the outside world (as a result of no other avenues being open because of the isolation policy of the RoCy) has made me aware that the Turkish Cypriots are in effect between the rock and a hard place: South Cyprus with a hostile GC populace on one side, and Turkey with its overwhelming influences on the other.

With these items in mind, I opted for the stance that has succeeded in annoying both sides, supporting the total unaligned independence of North Cyprus so that the Turkish Cypriots are assured of steering their own destiny. The GC's say that I'm an interfering splittist, whilst a number of TC's say that I'm trashing their motherland.

Let me make this clear: If I thought that reconciliation in Cyprus was possible, and that the Republic of Cyprus would not re-descend into the intercommunal conflicts of the '60's and '70's, I would be fully supportive of such a move. People like GC seem to think its possible, and I'd like to believe him, but given the historical antipathy between Greeks and Turks, I am not an optimist about such a scenario happening.

I will also say here that I don't support all of what is going on in North Cyprus. The treatment of the enclaved Greek Cypriots in the Karpass peninisula, the descrecration of holy and archeological sites, the steady increase in the numbers of Turkish migrants to North Cyprus, and the ridiculously large number of Turkish military forces ( which given the proximity to the island of Turkey, is strategially unnecessary) are things that must rightly be objected to. Still, balancing this is that there is no longer any Greek Cypriot "knife at the throat" of the Turkish Cypriots and that the previous discriminatory practices done to them pre-1974 are no longer done. IMHO, the benefits of the partition AT THIS TIME outweigh the costs. Still, if the "Anatolianization" of North Cyprus continues, then not only will the raison d'etre of the UDI be rendered impotent, but the Turkish Cypriot populace will end up assimilated into Turkey proper. That's why independence in the true sense of the word seems to be the only viable survival solution that I can see for the Turkish Cypriots.

I do apologize for sounding like a broken record with some of what I have written here, and I know that this is going to fail to impress a lot of you, but you have asked me why I express my opinions on Cyprus and my favoring of Turkish Cypriot independence, and I have answered you the best way I can.

"My interest in Cyprus began in 1984 as part of a course I was taking in political science back in Auckland"

I trully apreciated your abv post.

I assume that you started your study about CB on basis of facts after 1960.

I suggest that you should go further back where m, most propably, you could realize that a whole population had been forced to deny its history and destiny because "some foreigners" decided so.

A small question: what was your degree on this case?

[Expatkiwi]

It's also amazing to me how you knew there was a lettering BRTK made of trees outside that building and how you "accidentally" stumbled upon it and recognized the mirror image of those letters!! Having your information in hand it was still hard for me to locate it, and i had to zoom my screen to full to show just that building. And still at that zoom level I missed the letters twice, because of their mirror image form.

I am not convinced that you live in Arkansas either. It's not necessary to give me your address....

If you have something to say to convince me then fine.
Otherwise I am very sorry but I have to tell my own opinion as to why your stance is "the way it is".

In regards to BRTK, I weas following the road east on Wikipedia from Ataturk Stadium (which I located through WIKIPEDIA), when I stumbled upon it.
In regards to the maps I used, this one http://mappery.com/Nicosia-Tourist-Map was the main one. Thee is another one with road names for the entire city clearly marked which I got from a map shop in Pasadena, CA. By using the road names with descriptions of locations on various websites, it was relatively easy for me to track down the locations on Wikimapia. This is the way I did it.

As for AR, if you can find a way for me to convince you that I am here without compromising my location, then let me know. I will say that I am within forty miles of Little Rock, and there are a lot of C-130's flying in and out of LRAFB at Jacksonville, AR.

[Expatkiwi]

I've got an idea to convinve folk that I am indeed an Arkansan resident: How about you send me a PO box number in Cyprus, and I'll send you a postcard from here. That should prove to those skeptics that I am indeed here in USA once they see the stamps and postmark...

[paliometoxo]

you dont have to prove yourself. even though many forumers dont believe your american and really tc (including me). and even if your in america it doesent prove anything there is plenty of turk minorities in america/england and other countries like australia so it really does not prove a thing. and as i said before you shouldent care what strangers on the net think you dont have to prove yourself.

[SKI-preo]

Do you have something else to tell us:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/s ... 5819071357

Stay away from turkish livestock please

[Get Real!]

I've got an idea to convinve folk that I am indeed an Arkansan resident: How about you send me a PO box number in Cyprus, and I'll send you a postcard from here. That should prove to those skeptics that I am indeed here in USA once they see the stamps and postmark...

Take your personal shit to the general section or private mail, because your personal life is irrelevant to the CyProb, and not to mention that its as interesting as a chewing gum stuck on one’s sole!

[Kikapu]

I've got an idea to convinve folk that I am indeed an Arkansan resident: How about you send me a PO box number in Cyprus, and I'll send you a postcard from here. That should prove to those skeptics that I am indeed here in USA once they see the stamps and postmark...

Since everyone knows your real name and what you look like, why don't you just scan your Arkansas driver's licence and post it here on the forum after you block your address, drivers' licence number along with your signature if you really cared or wanted to prove that you are in Arkansas. I don't think most of us really care one way or the other, Expat.!

[Talisker]

To me, I felt it rather absurd that a majority (the GC's) would feel threatened by a minority (the TC's), and that on that basis, moves for enosis and TC marginialization bore the hallmarks of crude bullying tactics. The non-presence of the Turkish Cypriots in government and the enclaves (likened to Bantustans) made me conclude that the Greek Cypriots had no interest in sharing with the Turkish Cypriots, so when I read about the attempted coup, and Turkey's response, my reaction was that the bullies ended up getting their asses kicked because the bullied had a friend to defend them (Turkey). Bullies getting themselves bullied back to me is pure poetic justice.
So, when the 1983 UDI took place, it seemed to be to be logical, given that the majority didn't want the minority, so the minority made their own country. Simplistic, I know, but my favoring the Turkish Cypriots was a mixture of logic and sympathy.

Over the years, especially after I emigrated to the USA, I met and got to know a number of Turkish Cypriot migrants to the USA, and what they told me confirmed that my stance was the morally correct one. My disdain for the GC's grew over the isolations imposed on North Cyprus, which also served to reinforce my view of their being nothing more than a bullying mob.

Expatkiwi, as others have pointed out your pretext for supporting the TC stance on the basis they were 'bullied' by GCs completely ignores the historical context of Cyprus through the 1950s and into the 1960s. During the 1950s the GCs were the 'bullied', the bullies being the British colonial rulers aided and abetted by TCs who were provided with positions of authority as part of the 'divide and rule' policy commonly used during colonialism. The legacy of this was a flawed consitution when Cyprus achieved independence, one which, in my opinion, was not based on true democratic principles or application of human rights (TCs maintained unrepresentative power). This idea that TCs somehow deserve special privileges lead directly to the constitutional crises, the (Turkish-influenced?) TC policy in disengaging politically and socially (into enclaves), and ultimately to the 1974 invasion, and continued perception with some TCs that their community must have political equality (rather than one man one vote democracy) with the GCs.

Your other post that the TC kebab sellers were nicer than Greeks you met in NZ just indicates a shallowness to your thinking and is a pathetic explanation for your prejudice against GCs. If you cared to reflect on the positions of those huge numbers of displaced GCs and those that lost relatives and friends you might understand why GCs are holding out for a morally, politically and legally correct solution to the problem, and why they have little time for your half-baked stance.

I don't usually bother to engage with you because you come over as someone who sets out to taunt GCs (how sad a reflection is that of your character?) when many of them show their pain and frustration at the loss of their land, the division of their nation, intransigence in finding a solution, and oppression by an invading force. It must be bad enough to be taunted by the TC partitionists, let alone someone such as yourself who claims to have never even visited Cyprus and to having no Cypriot connections other than your 'penpal' status with Denktash. This in itself is surely an indication that you are allowing yourself to be used by TCs for propaganda purposes.

Overall, your reasons for supporting TCs are historically flawed, prejudiced by meeting a couple of 'nice' TCs and the fact you are flattered to be acknowledged by Denktash, and in my opinion show you to have a very strange personality indeed!

[Expatkiwi]

Take your personal shit to the general section or private mail, because your personal life is irrelevant to the CyProb, and not to mention that its as interesting as a chewing gum stuck on one’s sole!

Pyrpolizer wasn't convinced of my bona fides in regards to my stance on the Cyprus Problem. For you to write the above note strongly suggests that you never bothered to read the previous posts that led to my suggestion on P.O. box numbers, and therefore decided to concentrate on one posting only in order to continue your vendetta against my presence here. Looks like you're being the shallow one here, GR...

BTW, I'm surprised that you haven't seen fit to comment on my thoughts for a unitary Cyprus state. With folk like Paphitis and Paliomexoto liknig what I wrote, I was rather curious as to how you'd find it...