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Why is my stance the way it is?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Paphitis » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:30 pm

EricSeans wrote:Expatkiwi,

You have an advantage over many laymen in that you have studied the Cyprus conflict in depth. I too did this as part of my Masters course a few years ago. However, in doing any advanced study of this kind the importance of fieldwork is crucial to understanding what you have only covered in theory. In other words, you have to get out there and really get to know the people of Cyprus, their communities, their history, their leaders and their influences. You have to be able to put yourself inside their heads in order to draw the right conclusions.

You've revealed something of yourself so let me do the same by comparison. I had nearly 10 years association with Cyprus before my studies, so when the island aspect of my work came up I was able to get a position as an intern with the UN peacekeeping force and also had a good range of contacts, some of whom I had already interviewed as a journalist. In the course of getting to know Cyprus I met serving and former foreign ministers on both sides, civil servants, NGO officials, discovered a missing person's grave at the scene of a 1974 firefight, was taken prisoner by the Turkish army but most importantly spent long periods of time in the company of Cypriots and their families.

Some of these experiences I would not want again, but the depth and intimacy was vital to my making informed decisions and forming my opinions of the historical framework behind the Cyprus conflict. I initially saw the Turkish Cypriots as the underdogs (and in many ways they still are) but in reality there was a huge political background of which I was previously unaware, which is best summarised as bracketing the TCs with a victim mentality that always placed the blame on the Greek Cypriots but never themselves or the uncompromising ruler and occupier, Turkey.

Put simply, I think you have adopted a kind of "Stockholm syndrome" without actually spending much, if any, time with the hostage takers and those they have under their control and influence. You see a TC enclave as a safe haven from GC aggression and never a place where TCs were often herded unwillingly by their TMT masters - and woe betide those who challenged the neighbourhood "karasakal". The truth is found in the shades of grey and not the black and whites you have heard, by your own admission, from TC immigrants to the US. The further away from the homeland the more extreme the nationalists become and the taller their tales of hate and anomosity grow. You factor Enosis into your reasoning for TC emancipation without acknowledging this sentiment has been dead for decades. And you base your views on GC mentality on a few immigrant hotheads you have met in the States (see above).

Perhaps tellingly, you speak of Denktas with admiration and say your correspondence with him confirms your correct decision in supporting the Turkish position. This is surely a shallow observation to make of a man who countless TCs see as to blame for cementing their isolation with his UDI and being largely responsible for their current plight. Fan mail induces flattery but is nothing more than superficial. Your partial condemnation of the Turkification of the north is commendable but your support for partition - as if it has somehow stopped the GCs from making kebabs out of the TCs since 1974 - marks you out as someone who, perhaps unwittingly, does not have the best interests of the TCs at heart. And the reason for this IMHO is your physical and psychological distance from Cyprus and the Cypriots.


A very good and accurate post.

Expat needs to expand his research and sources.
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Postby Kikapu » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:33 pm

Expatkiwi wrote:A number of you out there have asked me what my motivation truly is in my supporting the independence of North Cyprus. I have been ridiculed, criticized, demeaned, threatened, and also one attempt at blackmail was levelled against me. Not only my intelligence, but my integrity in general has been brought into question. Also, people are doubting my nationality and claiming that I'm a Turkish Cypriot in Kiwi clothing. I think it best to explain it to you all in detail, and - as hard as this may seem to a number of you - please hold off the sarcasm and disbelief when framing your reply.


I've read the rest of your nonsense trying to explain as to the reasons why the way you are, which made you the way you are.! Well, Expat, I have another theory and I have already brought this partially to your attention few months ago if you remember.!

Reading your above quote, I think you have left something very important out, and that is the death of your young son in an auto crash in Arkansas, may he rest in peace. I believe you are blaming the GCs for your son's death, because your identity had been exposed a while back for posting fabricated information here on the forum from Wikipedia that favoured the TCs, which you yourself manufactured that fabrication on Wikipedia, which may have caused you to leave California prematurely, and if you hadn't, then your son may still be alive today. As a result, you may have spent too much time on the forum in trying to defend your position by those whom attacked you once you have moved to Arkansas, who were mainly the GCs, when you could have spent more time with your son in order to protect him, which once again, may still be alive today if you had.

So Expat, are you blaming your son's death on some of the forumers here, because I have noticed that you have become very fanatical in your support for the illegal north since your son's death. Are you sure you are just not taking "revenge" by supporting the north in such passion despite everything being wrong by the formation of the north, despite the biggest victims are in fact the people you say you care about, the TCs, who are in fact facing extinction by Turkey's actions. The only thing that will save the TCs is a unification with the south based on Democracy and Human Rights as equal citizens and not permanent partition. If the TCs are slowly disappearing in today's partition, just imagine what will happen to them if it were to become permanent, since they are now in the same numerical minority position as they were with the GCs as they are now with the Settlers. Once they lose their political power that they enjoy now in the “parliament”, because they have already lost their voting power, that will be the end of the TCs as we knew them once as Cypriots. Is this what you really support.??
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Re: Why is my stance the way it is?

Postby Kuruovali » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:31 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:
Expatkiwi wrote:[...]
Still, if the "Anatolianization" of North Cyprus continues, then not only will the raison d'etre of the UDI be rendered impotent, but the Turkish Cypriot populace will end up assimilated into Turkey proper. That's why independence in the true sense of the word seems to be the only viable survival solution that I can see for the Turkish Cypriots.
[....]


Has the thought ever occured to you that maybe the whole thing has been planned like this by Turkey from the outset? That Turkey's long-term aim has always been to turn part of Cyprus into one of its own provinces, populated by its own people. Perhaps this was the real raison d'etre - it was a means to an end - and it is being executed with great precision.

Remember the prophecy of the late Özker Özgür that the Turkish Cypriots, having accomplished their historic task for the "motherland", would henceforth gradually be replaced by a more docile population from Anatolia.


Beleive me Tim many of the arrivals from Anatolia post 74 are more hard working, industrious and brighter then the existing TC's. They are the back bone of the North's labour force. Whilst the TC elders tend to spend most of their time sitting in cafes (having retired at 50) and the youngsters spending the day at the beach an evening at the bars or driving around in flash cars.

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Re: Why is my stance the way it is?

Postby Tim Drayton » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:38 pm

Kuruovali wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:
Expatkiwi wrote:[...]
Still, if the "Anatolianization" of North Cyprus continues, then not only will the raison d'etre of the UDI be rendered impotent, but the Turkish Cypriot populace will end up assimilated into Turkey proper. That's why independence in the true sense of the word seems to be the only viable survival solution that I can see for the Turkish Cypriots.
[....]


Has the thought ever occured to you that maybe the whole thing has been planned like this by Turkey from the outset? That Turkey's long-term aim has always been to turn part of Cyprus into one of its own provinces, populated by its own people. Perhaps this was the real raison d'etre - it was a means to an end - and it is being executed with great precision.

Remember the prophecy of the late Özker Özgür that the Turkish Cypriots, having accomplished their historic task for the "motherland", would henceforth gradually be replaced by a more docile population from Anatolia.


Beleive me Tim many of the arrivals from Anatolia post 74 are more hard working, industrious and brighter then the existing TC's. They are the back bone of the North's labour force. Whilst the TC elders tend to spend most of their time sitting in cafes (having retired at 50) and the youngsters spending the day at the beach an evening at the bars or driving around in flash cars.

K


I agree. I have personally met quite a few who match the description you have given. It does not alter my basic point, though, which is to suggest to Expatkiwi that he explore other avenues of thought, such as that which would suggest that Turkey has had a long-term game plan in Cyprus which has more to do with territorial expansion than protecting the interests of Turkish Cypriots. I do not think that this is the only truth, either, but is certainly a premise that deserves serious consideration.
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Postby Jimski999 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:08 pm

Hello Eric
A very interesting post and also very informative.

My friend Chris is a refugee from Morphou; he fought against the Turks at Nicosia Airport where he was badly wounded and ended up being flown to the UK for treatment. He recalls how after fighting the Turks to a standstill on the perimeter of the airport they eventually ran out of ammunition and during the night how British Army trucks appeared behind their positions with boxes of ammunition to replenish their stocks and this went on until the cease fire. Chris bears no ill will towards the TC’s; he said he was not fighting against them he was fighting against the Turkish invaders and before that he was fighting against the “Effing” Greeks who were trying to overthrow his government. Strange times indeed; if the conflict was just black and white it would make everything so much easier but as you said there are so many shades of grey.

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Re: Why is my stance the way it is?

Postby GeorgeV97qaue » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:46 pm

Expatkiwi wrote:A number of you out there have asked me what my motivation truly is in my supporting the independence of North Cyprus. I have been ridiculed, criticized, demeaned, threatened, and also one attempt at blackmail was levelled against me. Not only my intelligence, but my integrity in general has been brought into question. Also, people are doubting my nationality and claiming that I'm a Turkish Cypriot in Kiwi clothing. I think it best to explain it to you all in detail, and - as hard as this may seem to a number of you - please hold off the sarcasm and disbelief when framing your reply.

My interest in Cyprus began in 1984 as part of a course I was taking in political science back in Auckland. North Cyprus had only just recently announced its unilateral declaration of independence. The course touched on Cyprus and its internal and external problems since 1960, and an assignment was required to discuss the Cyprus Problem and the events that led up to the UDI, and the aftermath, which I researched what data I could find in order to complete my assignment. What I discovered raised some questions with me.

To me, I felt it rather absurd that a majority (the GC's) would feel threatened by a minority (the TC's), and that on that basis, moves for enosis and TC marginialization bore the hallmarks of crude bullying tactics. The non-presence of the Turkish Cypriots in government and the enclaves (likened to Bantustans) made me conclude that the Greek Cypriots had no interest in sharing with the Turkish Cypriots, so when I read about the attempted coup, and Turkey's response, my reaction was that the bullies ended up getting their asses kicked because the bullied had a friend to defend them (Turkey). Bullies getting themselves bullied back to me is pure poetic justice.
So, when the 1983 UDI took place, it seemed to be to be logical, given that the majority didn't want the minority, so the minority made their own country. Simplistic, I know, but my favoring the Turkish Cypriots was a mixture of logic and sympathy.

Over the years, especially after I emigrated to the USA, I met and got to know a number of Turkish Cypriot migrants to the USA, and what they told me confirmed that my stance was the morally correct one. My disdain for the GC's grew over the isolations imposed on North Cyprus, which also served to reinforce my view of their being nothing more than a bullying mob.

My being welcomed on sites such at ATCA, plus the personal rapports I had built (in person with M. Mustafagolu, and by mail with R. Denktas) made me feel even more secure in the knowledge that I had made the right choice. And - and I'm not being nasty here - the accusations and slurs directed at me by the GC members of this forum didn't help your side one little bit with me. It reinforced my percetion of GC's as intolerant and politically radical. The few migrant Greeks here in the USA I met and talked to had those very same traits of "my way, or the highway".

So where does this leave me now? Well, I have to say that I'm still not convinced that the GC's no longer harbor any ill-will towards the TC's, so that's why I'm not in favor of reunification. But reading about Turkey's influences in North Cyprus and how the Turkish Cypriots themselves are regarded by the Turks have shaken me some. The current trends tend to the steady Turkification of North Cyprus into a Turkish province, plus the utter reliance on Turkey for trade and contacts with the outside world (as a result of no other avenues being open because of the isolation policy of the RoCy) has made me aware that the Turkish Cypriots are in effect between the rock and a hard place: South Cyprus with a hostile GC populace on one side, and Turkey with its overwhelming influences on the other.

With these items in mind, I opted for the stance that has succeeded in annoying both sides, supporting the total unaligned independence of North Cyprus so that the Turkish Cypriots are assured of steering their own destiny. The GC's say that I'm an interfering splittist, whilst a number of TC's say that I'm trashing their motherland.

Let me make this clear: If I thought that reconciliation in Cyprus was possible, and that the Republic of Cyprus would not re-descend into the intercommunal conflicts of the '60's and '70's, I would be fully supportive of such a move. People like GC seem to think its possible, and I'd like to believe him, but given the historical antipathy between Greeks and Turks, I am not an optimist about such a scenario happening.

I will also say here that I don't support all of what is going on in North Cyprus. The treatment of the enclaved Greek Cypriots in the Karpass peninisula, the descrecration of holy and archeological sites, the steady increase in the numbers of Turkish migrants to North Cyprus, and the ridiculously large number of Turkish military forces ( which given the proximity to the island of Turkey, is strategially unnecessary) are things that must rightly be objected to. Still, balancing this is that there is no longer any Greek Cypriot "knife at the throat" of the Turkish Cypriots and that the previous discriminatory practices done to them pre-1974 are no longer done. IMHO, the benefits of the partition AT THIS TIME outweigh the costs. Still, if the "Anatolianization" of North Cyprus continues, then not only will the raison d'etre of the UDI be rendered impotent, but the Turkish Cypriot populace will end up assimilated into Turkey proper. That's why independence in the true sense of the word seems to be the only viable survival solution that I can see for the Turkish Cypriots.

I do apologize for sounding like a broken record with some of what I have written here, and I know that this is going to fail to impress a lot of you, but you have asked me why I express my opinions on Cyprus and my favoring of Turkish Cypriot independence, and I have answered you the best way I can.


Why do you keep on justifying your position is it because you know you are full of crap.
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Re: Why is my stance the way it is?

Postby Expatkiwi » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:31 pm

GeorgeV97qaue wrote:Why do you keep on justifying your position is it because you know you are full of crap.


George, enough people have aked me to justify my position and my motives for doing so that I felt obligated to do this. Now whether you agree with this is up to you, but I felt it a matter of honor to do so.

The earlier post regarding "Stockholm Syndrome" was quite interesting. I admit that I had never thought of that. It is true that I was a victim of continual bullying at school and at the hands of my older brothers at home, so it is natural for me to empathise with fellow-bullied. The TC's certainly fit into the 'bullied' category. Bullied by enosis-ists on one side, and Anatolianisers on the other, while ignored by the rest of the world in general. Not good.
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Postby Expatkiwi » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:36 pm

Kikapu wrote:
I've read the rest of your nonsense trying to explain as to the reasons why the way you are, which made you the way you are.! Well, Expat, I have another theory and I have already brought this partially to your attention few months ago if you remember.!

Reading your above quote, I think you have left something very important out, and that is the death of your young son in an auto crash in Arkansas, may he rest in peace. I believe you are blaming the GCs for your son's death, because your identity had been exposed a while back for posting fabricated information here on the forum from Wikipedia that favoured the TCs, which you yourself manufactured that fabrication on Wikipedia, which may have caused you to leave California prematurely, and if you hadn't, then your son may still be alive today. As a result, you may have spent too much time on the forum in trying to defend your position by those whom attacked you once you have moved to Arkansas, who were mainly the GCs, when you could have spent more time with your son in order to protect him, which once again, may still be alive today if you had.

So Expat, are you blaming your son's death on some of the forumers here, because I have noticed that you have become very fanatical in your support for the illegal north since your son's death. Are you sure you are just not taking "revenge" by supporting the north in such passion despite everything being wrong by the formation of the north, despite the biggest victims are in fact the people you say you care about, the TCs, who are in fact facing extinction by Turkey's actions. The only thing that will save the TCs is a unification with the south based on Democracy and Human Rights as equal citizens and not permanent partition. If the TCs are slowly disappearing in today's partition, just imagine what will happen to them if it were to become permanent, since they are now in the same numerical minority position as they were with the GCs as they are now with the Settlers. Once they lose their political power that they enjoy now in the “parliament”, because they have already lost their voting power, that will be the end of the TCs as we knew them once as Cypriots. Is this what you really support.??


Kikpau, I will thank you to keep my late son out of it! As for the reason for my family moving to Arkansas, it is certainly not what your theory implies.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:50 pm

Expatkiwi,

People who watch the ATCA forum know very well you actually started from there. To decribe it in short imo ATCA is just a pure concentration of fanatics the vast majority of which don't even live in Cyprus.It is also one of the most authoritative forums I 've ever seen, who silences almost immediately ( by banning) anyone who they feel does not serve their purpose. Make a search there for their member "Bidane" for example. You yourself was threatened many times there, when you just dared question a few things.
For your information their biggest "hero" Eric Dayi came in this forum trying to play the wise guy in the past. We couldn't even pass one sensible argument...

In other words not only you were biased from the very begining regarding the Cyprob (look how previous responders reached the same conclussion from your own post) , you got further biased at ATCA.... I am really wondering, haven't you noticed there was something wrong there, were you so blind???

It is only natural for every human to always side with the weak. I can understand why from your initial information you sided with the TCs.Fair enough.
On the other hand it really astonishes me how on your quest through the Cyprob the only weak ones you dioscovered were the TCs. I mean how about the GC refugees almost 40% of the population? Was it perhaps because your knowledge was limited? Was it because you willingly wanted to ignore other information? I really don't know...

I am a GC, and I know very well nobody has been a saint in Cyprus neither the GCs nor the TCs. At times both sides have been at the position of the "weak".I don't blame either side, in fact i beleive today both the GCs and the TCs are victims.

I noticed your signature which says "Northern Cyprus: Independent NOW AND FOREVER!" in an almost fanatic way. How can an outsider- a 3rd party- like you, be so sure and shout slogans like that is beyond by comprehension.
Do you know for example that what you call "Northern Cyprus" was inhabited by 84% GCs and only 16% TCs in 1974? Do you know that almost 90% of the privately owned land there belongs to GC refugees? Do you know that in 1974 that area contributed 70% of the GNP because it was the richest and most productive place in Cyprus?Furthermore do you know what hardships the GC refugess (almost half the GC popultion) went through and for how many years? To give you a hint just imagine yourself tomorrow with no place to sleep, no home, no money no anything. Imagine your whole family sleeping in the fields for a few months. Imagine no job for years and years, and when you get lucky finding one, working for peanuts. Imagine at the same time hearing from the radio that the TCs became the biggest exporters of stolen furniture and household, your own household, TVs, refrigerators, beds, washing machines you name it, while you still live in the fields or under a tent that the UN (God bless them) provided for you.

How can anyone get his own independent state "NOW AND FOREVER!" based on someone else's stolen land, properties, and homes?
If that place belonged to the TCs I would be all with you, in fact there perhaps wouldn't even be a Cyprus problem.

Now you tell me what they told you at ATCA and we can continue the discussion from there. I bet they told you the TCs left behind at the Southern part an equal amount of privately owned land and wealth and an equal amount of homes. Do I win the bet? :wink:
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Postby T_C » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:08 pm

Expatkiwi wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
I've read the rest of your nonsense trying to explain as to the reasons why the way you are, which made you the way you are.! Well, Expat, I have another theory and I have already brought this partially to your attention few months ago if you remember.!

Reading your above quote, I think you have left something very important out, and that is the death of your young son in an auto crash in Arkansas, may he rest in peace. I believe you are blaming the GCs for your son's death, because your identity had been exposed a while back for posting fabricated information here on the forum from Wikipedia that favoured the TCs, which you yourself manufactured that fabrication on Wikipedia, which may have caused you to leave California prematurely, and if you hadn't, then your son may still be alive today. As a result, you may have spent too much time on the forum in trying to defend your position by those whom attacked you once you have moved to Arkansas, who were mainly the GCs, when you could have spent more time with your son in order to protect him, which once again, may still be alive today if you had.

So Expat, are you blaming your son's death on some of the forumers here, because I have noticed that you have become very fanatical in your support for the illegal north since your son's death. Are you sure you are just not taking "revenge" by supporting the north in such passion despite everything being wrong by the formation of the north, despite the biggest victims are in fact the people you say you care about, the TCs, who are in fact facing extinction by Turkey's actions. The only thing that will save the TCs is a unification with the south based on Democracy and Human Rights as equal citizens and not permanent partition. If the TCs are slowly disappearing in today's partition, just imagine what will happen to them if it were to become permanent, since they are now in the same numerical minority position as they were with the GCs as they are now with the Settlers. Once they lose their political power that they enjoy now in the “parliament”, because they have already lost their voting power, that will be the end of the TCs as we knew them once as Cypriots. Is this what you really support.??


Kikpau, I will thank you to keep my late son out of it! As for the reason for my family moving to Arkansas, it is certainly not what your theory implies.


How disgusting of him to even try and use that against you! :shock:

Pay no mind to him Expat... :(
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